Jayleew
then what issue of the material world can satisfy our propensity to look for the persisting amongst the temporal, the overarching principle amongst the contingent, etc etc ??? Despite being constantly advertised as "new", how many advancements do you think there has been in the toothpaste industry during the past 3 decades?
In what way does material happiness impact spiritual happiness?
(I suspect that we have different understandings of what these words mean)
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Yes, we do.
I get the impression your state of mind is that God exists.
sure
In that context, only things in the service of God are considered spiritual. I have lived many years that way.
maybe you can give some examples or ideas on how you served god, as opposed to merely altruistic endeavours
(you seem to suggest that now that god is no longer a part of your life, you have more time for altruism..... but you never really did give a clear idea about what it meant exactly to have god a part of your life .... except be part of a congregation)
Today, spiritual means the place deep inside us all that defies logic to me. It is a state of mind that is indirectly affected by material being health, not directly by material things. It is having spirit, in all sense of the word. It is an attitude. In that way, it is the same as your definition, the object of service is different. One is other people, one is God.
certainly we do have different usages of the word
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Originally Posted by lightgigantic
Suppose I am completely socialized around the service of god?
What material circumstances can impact to frustrate that?
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Many things, but it depends on the person. Everything has a psychological impact on the state of mind, which has an effect on a person's attitude. We can postualate on how we will act, or what we believe. And, when it is gametime not act in a way that we thought. In the story of Jesus Christ and the 12. The disciples couldn't believe that they would be the ones to deny Jesus Christ. In this case, it was peer pressure and the threat death to all who were associated with Christ. It was a material circumstance that frustrated their spiritual well being.
Judas is another example of how material things can affect a person's spiritual well being. Maybe his material greedy attitude was the cause for his spiritual downfall.
it's one thing to talk of how a person who is not completely socialized around the service of god can get frustrated, sure.
But suppose one is completely socialized around the service of god.
eg - BG 2.20 For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.
How does death interfere with the activities of the soul?
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Originally Posted by lightgigantic
Establishing one materially does not spiritually empower one anymore than destabilizing one materially does.
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I'm telling you that if you live with the spiritual and material separated, you will hurt people or yourself unknowingly.[/QUOTE]
the idea is that the material becomes spiritualized, or dovetailed in the service of god, as opposed to separated.
As long as one is caught up in issues of duality (which is the situation of the aspiring spiritualist, what to speak of a frazzled spiritualist or gross materialist), one can expect to hurt others or oneself knowingly or unknowingly. A good example is meat eating. (eg - that living entity doesn't have a body like mine so it is ok if it dies squealing to satisfy my palate)
I have been hurt by a good Christian woman repeatedly for this reason. It was not malicious, she hurt me by not recognizing her own spiritual health, she was so good at separating the two that she could not see reality. Pride set in her because she was always on a spiritual cloud 9. That is when it struck me that a spiritual cloud 9 is not something one should aspire for, instead it should be something that occurs naturally....and that by living well (not trying to live painlessly).
again, as long as one insists on issues of duality, there is no scope for happiness.
Doesn't matter whether one is esteemed as "good" spiritualist or whatever.
Is it scriptural that one should aspire to be like Christ? I'll have to ask my friend, who is a pastor, who gives it to me straight. I don't recall that concept in my own studies in the past.
I always thought it was quite clear that christians followed in the footsteps of jesus, and modeled their behavior on his.
Of course one may or may not be ideal, but there must be some ideal to follow.
If you attempt to separate the two, you are only setting yourself up because that requires that you maintain your spiritual without regard to your material.
spiritual life is really quite simple
avoid sin and do what ever you are doing in life as an offering to god
to do this one must have a clear idea of what is sin and what is the nature of god
If one doesn't meet this criteria they get sidetracked in issues of mental speculation and fruitive activity (eg - so called altruism)
What is wrong with that is when you hurt yourself or another, and you don't say, "ouch" or "I'm sorry". Tyring to separate the two, and imagining a line between spiritual and material, is detrimental to spiritual health. Believe me, I lived that way for years. I can't say how much longer it will take you, but there will come a time when you question youself, "Am I being genuine, or is it all a self conditioned response to keep them disjoined and keep deceiving myself that I have spiritual health?"
we have a comical term for this
we call it PDS
or pure devotee syndrome
usually it reaches its high point after about 5 years
It is more sane to just let them naturally exist, accept their relationship, and control them. IOW, when you let go of trying to be something you aren't, you will find peace. And now, if God chooses to reveal himself to me, I will be genuine to him. Ugly or beautiful me.
I agree that the issue of identity is at the crux of the matter. Along with identity comes so much of how we act in this world.
The problem is that the very nature of taking birth in this world is that we identify with the body.... and of course the problem with that is that the body will very shortly cease to exist. Until we can let go of this issue of false ego, any talk of finding peace is simply an imagination.
The peace that is past understanding, can be obtained without God. I've experienced that peace with God (or so I thought), and without. I was rather shocked that I found that peace without God because that is not what the Bible teaches.
there are all sorts of happiness and satisfaction. As explained earlier they all exist relative to an object. By analyzing the nature of that object one can grade the value of that happiness and satisfaction. Otherwise the peace a street bum experiences upon finding a half empty bottle of vodka in a bin would be just as valid as the peace you are describing
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Originally Posted by lightgigantic
I have to admit that I find some christians definitions or understandings of the nature of god somewhat lacking. I recall one nun who explained to me that god is "the smile of babies and a field of daisies".
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I'm sure some Christians would say the same of your definition. And this is why you must be aware of your spritual health so that you can know how to influence it.
I don't doubt that they might disagree with some parts of it
My point is however that there seems to be a dearth of philosophy in many contemporary strands of christianity. IOW they have no clear idea of what is the nature of god, what is the nature of the living entity, what is the nature of the relationship between the living entity and god, what is the nature of the material world and what is the nature of the spiritual world.
Small wonder that they often run into trouble by ascribing eternal values to temporary phenomena.
So, religion is the cure. It is a way to influence spiritual health. I'd like to know why there are other cures. Why do I feel the peace now more often now than when I was a devoted Christian? Why do I all of the sudden care not how I am feeling, but how others are?
SB11.25.2 Mind and sense control, tolerance, discrimination, sticking to one's prescribed duty, truthfulness, mercy, careful study of the past and future, satisfaction in any condition, generosity, renunciation of sense gratification, faith in the spiritual master, being embarrassed at improper action, charity, simplicity, humbleness and satisfaction within oneself are qualities of the mode of goodness. Material desire, great endeavor, audacity, dissatisfaction even in gain, false pride, praying for material advancement, considering oneself different and better than others, sense gratification, rash eagerness to fight, a fondness for hearing oneself praised, the tendency to ridicule others, advertising one's own prowess and justifying one's actions by one's strength are qualities of the mode of passion. Intolerant anger, stinginess, speaking without scriptural authority, violent hatred, living as a parasite, hypocrisy, chronic fatigue, quarrel, lamentation, delusion, unhappiness, depression, sleeping too much, false expectations, fear and laziness constitute the major qualities of the mode of ignorance. Now please hear about the combination of these three modes.
Some elements of the mode of passion/ignorance have left you and some elements of the mode of goodness have been acquired
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Originally Posted by lightgigantic
The only issue is whether you think you have experienced all that there is to experience in the pursuit of god, and whether you think this is sufficient to contextualize all other claims about the nature of god.
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No, the jury is out on god. We don't know enough to trust anything we believe to be true completely.
so aside from application, how do you propose that one increase their knowledge?
