Is religion relevant in a modern day society?

[Baron Max]

You mean to say the fact that the enlightened Western secular countries with their higher education and greater knowledge of human rights and non-religious morals is not culpable for selling arms,...

Isn't free enterprise wonderful.

...BUT the uneducated poverty stricken, starvation and disease ridden people in the Third World countries with no escape from oppression and exploitation are?

Well, who bought all that shit from the western free enterprise system?

And isn't it interesting that they had enough money to buy those horrid things, but not enough to help their own people? ...or care enough to do so?

Western nations aren't responsible for every-fuckin'-bad-thing that happens in the world. Or, if we are, then shouldn't we invade all of the nations that don't act and do like we do? Is that what you're suggesting, Sam?

Fuck those other starving 3rd world nations ....let the fuckers eat bullets if they're really hungry!

Glad you cleared that up.

You're welcome.

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

Also you forget, the current drop in violence in Europe can be explained by the fact that it is barely 60 years since the last World War (both of which occurred in Europe for nonreligious reasons) and people may simply be tired of violence. Especially after the horrors of Nazism.

No, that was because the USA had troops in Europe and kept those vicious, warring factions from rising from the dust of World War II.

So ....that means that we should have troops in every nation on Earth, so as to keep the peace, huh?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Isn't free enterprise wonderful.



Well, who bought all that shit from the western free enterprise system?

And isn't it interesting that they had enough money to buy those horrid things, but not enough to help their own people? ...or care enough to do so?

Western nations aren't responsible for every-fuckin'-bad-thing that happens in the world. Or, if we are, then shouldn't we invade all of the nations that don't act and do like we do? Is that what you're suggesting, Sam?

Fuck those other starving 3rd world nations ....let the fuckers eat bullets if they're really hungry!



You're welcome.

Baron Max

You really should try and read the posts Baron

Do you think the aid is in the form of cold hard cash?

Its usually tied to corporations and industries which take more money out of the countries than they bring in.

Plus, look at all the best buddies of the Western countries in the developing countries, the ones who are kissing cousins on TV.

Notice what they have in common? They are either dictators or imperialists.

The ones who don't play ball (want a democratically elected government for instance or nationalised resources) immediately become the Enemy.

So where do you think puppet governments will spend the aid? On food, education and social welfare? How will this benefit the West?

Nope better to spend on growing cash crops which are then bought by the West for cheaper rates or in corporations that can take advantage of the cheap labor or of course on arms, a constant source of income that for strange reasons never falls under any government purview of regulations.

 

[SkinWalker]

So there is no association between poverty plus poor education plus unemployment plus lack of basic amenities plus dictatorship AND violence/crime/HRV?

Of course there are correlations. But none so consistent as the fact that religious nations have the highest crime.

Its all religion/superstition? And I'm silly?

I think you're not only being silly, but also failing to read what I've written. I said, I'm not implying the cause, only pointing out the correlation. You're inferring the cause based on the correlation and obviously don't like the inferrance. Personally, I think the causes of poverty and deprivation in the so-called third world are systemic and involve complex feedback loops such that there is no single cause. But I cannot ignore the fact that religious nations of the world have he highest incidences of crime.

Also you forget, the current drop in violence in Europe can be explained by the fact that it is barely 60 years since the last World War (both of which occurred in Europe for nonreligious reasons) and people may simply be tired of violence. Especially after the horrors of Nazism.

Blah, blah... this is speculation and may be correct, but it has no bearing on the fact that religious nations of the world have the highest crime rates.

However, the trend towards racism (always present in Europe) has never completely been eradicated and is now on the rise against immigrants. So are the secular atheists proof against this?

You can change the subject and misdirect with all the red herrings you'd like, the fact remains: religious nations of the world have the highest incidences of violent crime, including the U.S.

 

[Baron Max]

Do you think the aid is in the form of cold hard cash?

Who said anything about cash???

Its usually tied to corporations and industries which take more money out of the countries than they bring in.

So what? Those countries agreed to it ...free enterprise at work.

Nope better to spend on growing cash crops which are then bought by the West .....

So now you think that we should tell other nations what to do and how to do it and how to spend the aid that we give them????

Geez, Sam, pretty soon you're gonna' be suggesting that western nations invade those 3rd world countries and take them over completely!!!

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

You can change the subject and misdirect with all the red herrings you'd like, the fact remains: religious nations of the world have the highest incidences of violent crime, including the U.S.

Ya lets focus on ONE correlation and ignore all other mitigating factors like socio-economic status education etc. Especially since it fits the theory so much better.

You sound like Count Sudoko in his racist rantings on IQ.

As for the US: who would you say is making the decisions in that country?

 

[S.A.M.]

So now you think that we should tell other nations what to do and how to do it and how to spend the aid that we give them
Baron Max

Are you really so naive Baron?

 

[SkinWalker]

Ya lets focus on ONE correlation and ignore all other mitigating factors like socio-economic status education etc. Especially since it fits the theory so much better.

I don't ignore those other mitigating factors, I just don't see that they're as consistent as the fact that religious nations of the world have the highest crime. Moreover, this is a religion subforum, not a political one, and the thread topic is whether or not religion is relevant in modern society. I'm simply pointing out that it most certainly is. What you infer from that says more about you than it does the correlation itself, and I suggest that if you want to have a political discussion about whether capitalism is relevant in modern society, you start a thread in the appropriate forum.

You sound like Count Sudoko in his racist rantings on IQ.

And you demonstrate your intellectual dishonesty by resorting to such a logical fallacy just because you infer something sinister about the fact that religious nations consistently lead the world in crime. This is a thread about the relevance of religion and religiosity in modern society. I'm asserting that it is, indeed, relevant. If you find me a racist because of that, you are being intellectually dishonest and I demand an apology.

As for the US: who would you say is making the decisions in that country?

The majority, since its a democratic-republic. The people ultimately make decisions. However, it is again relevant to point out that the majority of the U.S. population is superstitious and has deep religious belief.

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't ignore those other mitigating factors, I just don't see that they're as consistent as the fact that religious nations of the world have the highest crime. Moreover, this is a religion subforum, not a political one, and the thread topic is whether or not religion is relevant in modern society. I'm simply pointing out that it most certainly is. What you infer from that says more about you than it does the correlation itself, and I suggest that if you want to have a political discussion about whether capitalism is relevant in modern society, you start a thread in the appropriate forum.

I believe I stressed on the secular aspects of Western society, the capitalism was your input. So do you believe that capitalism is not secular?

And you demonstrate your intellectual dishonesty by resorting to such a logical fallacy just because you infer something sinister about the fact that religious nations consistently lead the world in crime. This is a thread about the relevance of religion and religiosity in modern society. I'm asserting that it is, indeed, relevant. If you find me a racist because of that, you are being intellectually dishonest and I demand an apology.

I said "sound like" which is a metaphor, not an accusation. And if we are discussing secularism, violence and religion, why would you associate it with racism? I merely commented on the fallacy of your reasoning which is very similar to his.

The majority, since its a democratic-republic. The people ultimately make decisions. However, it is again relevant to point out that the majority of the U.S. population is superstitious and has deep religious belief.

So is there a correlation between crime and SES/education in the United States?

It does have the greatest gap between the poorest and richest, does it not? Due to its secular policies?

 

[SkinWalker]

While you didn't specifically write the word "capitalism," you clearly defined it in your posts. I clearly stated that capitalism is secular in a post above, evidence that you aren't actually reading the words, but perhaps seeing what you have already concluded.

You said I "sound like" a racist (not sure who this person is). Rather than discuss and point out the fallacy of my statement, you chose to make a logical fallacy of your own by drawing a unfair and unsupported analogy that has no bearing on the discussion. Why not simply expose the fallacy rather than accuse me of being racist, or "racist-like." Indeed, unless you're using a text to speech I certainly shouldn't "sound like" anything nor is "sound like" a metaphor. This is a simile.

In spite of all your petty defenses of religiosity, the fact remains that religion *is* relevant in modern society, particularly those societies concerned with crime and human rights violations. Draw all the other correlations you wish, but if you want to discuss political causes, start a thread in the appropriate forum.

 

[S.A.M.]

While you didn't specifically write the word "capitalism," you clearly defined it in your posts. I clearly stated that capitalism is secular in a post above, evidence that you aren't actually reading the words, but perhaps seeing what you have already concluded.

You said I "sound like" a racist (not sure who this person is). Rather than discuss and point out the fallacy of my statement, you chose to make a logical fallacy of your own by drawing a unfair and unsupported analogy that has no bearing on the discussion. Why not simply expose the fallacy rather than accuse me of being racist, or "racist-like." Indeed, unless you're using a text to speech I certainly shouldn't "sound like" anything nor is "sound like" a metaphor. This is a simile.

In spite of all your petty defenses of religiosity, the fact remains that religion *is* relevant in modern society, particularly those societies concerned with crime and human rights violations. Draw all the other correlations you wish, but if you want to discuss political causes, start a thread in the appropriate forum.

So if capitalism is secular, why is there a problem discussing it in relevance to religion in society?

And I apologise if you don't know who the count is. He makes the same argument of correlation between IQ and race and turns all arguments back to that one correlation as an answer for every refutation, hence the comparison. And you are right "sounds like" is a simile, not a metaphor.

There are no petty defenses of religiosity here. One only has to look at those religious countries free from Western intervention (which are hard to find, I agree) to see that the correlation between religiosity and crime is strongest in those countries where there is social inequality or discrimination or parental neglect due to various environmental conditions externally imposed on the society. Humans rights violation are a morality issue and several violations are based on current Western concepts of morality alien to the cultures they are imposed upon and hence are a product of lack of education or ignorance rather than deliberate cruelty.

As for the US, one could easily say that the breakdown in structure of family, community and society (all non religious associations) combined with social inequalities and racism are better determinants of crime rates than religion.

 

[SkinWalker]

Capitalism being "secular" means that it exists without regard to religion. This is a religion forum and a topic about the relevance of religion to modern society. There are many capitalists who are religious and many who are not and it has little bearing on religion -thus it is secular.

Again, I don't think I've stated that religion is the cause of crime; I'm stating that religion is relevant in modern society because there is a strong and consistent correlation between religious nations and violent crime in the world. I'm sure there are many other reasons why religion is relevant, but this is the one that came to mind first for me.

Please stay on topic.

 

[S.A.M.]

Capitalism being "secular" means that it exists without regard to religion. This is a religion forum and a topic about the relevance of religion to modern society. There are many capitalists who are religious and many who are not and it has little bearing on religion -thus it is secular.

Again, I don't think I've stated that religion is the cause of crime; I'm stating that religion is relevant in modern society because there is a strong and consistent correlation between religious nations and violent crime in the world. I'm sure there are many other reasons why religion is relevant, but this is the one that came to mind first for me.

Please stay on topic.

I am. If you make a claim that religion is relevant in modern society due to a strong and consistent correlation with crime or HRV, you have to justify how other factors which may mitigate these effects are irrelevant.

 

[Prince_James]

SamCDKey:

You must realize this: It is simply in our best interest to see to to it that the Third World is controllable through someone that keeps the ignorant masses in line. Dictators can do that, democratically elected regimes cannot.

 

[S.A.M.]

SamCDKey:

You must realize this: It is simply in our best interest to see to to it that the Third World is controllable through someone that keeps the ignorant masses in line. Dictators can do that, democratically elected regimes cannot.

You mean like in India?

 

[everneo]

SamCDKey:

You must realize this: It is simply in our best interest to see to to it that the Third World is controllable through someone that keeps the ignorant masses in line. Dictators can do that, democratically elected regimes cannot.

US state department consistently follows this policy in the 'ignorant' third world.

 

[freaky nut]

i wish to refer to the original point presented by 'never say never'.
i feel that religion is relevant in in 'modern day society'. i feel that is society has created its own god/s in its obsession with materialism and therefore has convinced itself that his exsistence is no longer necessary.

 

[S.A.M.]

i wish to refer to the original point presented by 'never say never'.
i feel that religion is relevant in in 'modern day society'. i feel that is society has created its own god/s in its obsession with materialism and therefore has convinced itself that his exsistence is no longer necessary.

That is an interesting comment. Islamic philosophy cautions against the worship of false gods like pride, wealth and power which can blind people to true society by replacing essential elements of a good life (like family, community, etc) with false comforts (like materialism and wealth)

 

[freaky nut]

the theme that never say never has brought up is truly interesting and reflects the internal tension experienced within society. you mention islam; the old testament also refers to it in the symbol of the bull of the israelites. i also feel that what never say never presents refers not only to a feeling in society and but a growing trend that is being 'taught' (for lack of a better word) to an emerging future generation. (if thats clear) (sorry)

 

[Prince_James]

SamCDKey:

I would actually not consider India to be third world, but really rather closer to the second world. She has these things going for her:

She is also not primarily Islamic, although as we all know, she has 100 million Moslems.

A long history of civilization and also had the benefit of long colonial control by Great Britain that gave many Indians (such as Gandhi) the benefits of education and other opportunities.

A populace filled with smart, hardworking people.