Is our legal system really based on justice?

TruthSeeker

TruthSeeker

Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey
Valued Senior Member
Hey Asguard! :)

Let's see... you said in the other thread:
i think vengence is stupid and that there is a reason that our legle system is based on JUSTICE not VENGENCE but i understand WHY they feel like it
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Well. I agree that our legal system is not based on vengence... but I don't agree that it's justice.

For a simple reason...
For example... if you are a powerful multinational company against a small one, which one will have more money to pay for better lawyers? Which one will be supported by the government? The answer is simple: the powerful multinational. Even if the small company is the victim, it will lose the case because it doesn't has good lawyers (or enough) and the government sometimes support more the multinationals (sometimes not...). It depends on the case... Is that justice?

Yes... the reason is: power.

Besides that, justice is always associated with punishment. You have to pay a fee, or go to jail, or lose your life for something that you did. Does this solve the problem? No. Does this creates resentment, fear of vengence and vengence itself? Yes.

I'm not here to suggest a new justice system, but I have my doubts about the one we have...

Love,
Nelson
 
Actually, any real-world legal system has to be based on vengence to at least some extent, because if the victim of a crime doesn't get at least SOME satisfaction out of the legal system, they'll pursue vengence privately. With all the problems for society, such as feuds, that implies. One of the major functions of the legal system is preventing that, by putting the process in the hands of people who can approach it with greater objectivity. And against whom it isn't safe to respond in turn.

Anyway, who says that vengence and justice can't be the same thing? Let's ask the dictionary:

"Main Entry: ven·geance
Pronunciation: 'ven-j&n(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from vengier to avenge, from Latin vindicare to lay claim to, avenge -- more at VINDICATE
Date: 14th century
: punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense :"

"Main Entry: jus·tice
Pronunciation: 'j&s-t&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English & Old French; Old English justice, from Old French justice, from Latin justitia, from justus
Date: 12th century
1 a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b : JUDGE c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
2 a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : RIGHTEOUSNESS c : the quality of conforming to law
3 : conformity to truth, fact, or reason : CORRECTNESS "

So, vengence can certainly be part of justice, if it's impartially carried out.
 
Our 'legal system' ...

Justice is not a requisite of an adversarial legal system.

Take care ;)
 
Brett Bellmore,
Does vengence or "justice" solve the problem...?

Tyler,
Yes... why do you think I don't like capitalism...? One of the reasons...
 
ok vengence is revenge, pure and simple

justice has 4 factors
Protection of sociaty
rehab
Deterant
and punishment

THAT is there order of importance to

In Australia at least

here our opinion is not "hang them all and let god decided"

a person is PRESUMED inocent untill found otherwise

They have that RIGHT along with the RIGHT to a FAIR and IMPARTAL hearing

Not a hearing by the victom who is INHERENTLY bias

"punishment" is decided by the JUDGE NOT the Jury. The judge must ALWAYS be impartal or the convicton can be thrown out

That will do for now
 
Nelson:
Besides that, justice is always associated with punishment. You have to pay a fee, or go to jail, or lose your life for something that you did. Does this solve the problem? No. Does this creates resentment, fear of vengence and vengence itself? Yes.
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And why dosen't it solve the problem? You assert, but do not prove.

Resentment? Possibly. Fear of vengence? Well, like duh, that's the point! Vengence itself? How many criminals take revenge on their juries?

Brett:
So, vengence can certainly be part of justice, if it's impartially carried out.
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Total AOL to that! Absolutely right.

Back to Nelson:

Vengence does solve problems. Say that a woman kills her rapist.

Streets are safer! Yeah, she goes to jail and that sucks, but the streets are safer.

So, a problem is solved.
 
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"Auctoritas, non veritas, facit legem."
"Authority, not truth, makes the law."
Thomas Hobbes

Michael
 
Xev,

And why dosen't it solve the problem? You assert, but do not prove.
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The crime commited is not "discommited"...
If the criminal killed a person and the criminal goes to jail, this won't revive the person... :bugeye:

Vengence does solve problems. Say that a woman kills her rapist.

Streets are safer! Yeah, she goes to jail and that sucks, but the streets are safer.

So, a problem is solved.
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She killed someone... she will never forget it... that's not a vengence, it's a present! The rapist stops suffering, she gets a bad conscience and the brother of the rapist won't like very nuch the situation... :p

In vengence, everyone loses. Violence only creates violence. :eek:
 
"The crime commited is not "discommited"...
If the criminal killed a person and the criminal goes to jail, this won't revive the person..."

By that logic there is zero way to solve the problem.



"The rapist stops suffering, she gets a bad conscience and the brother of the rapist won't like very nuch the situation..."

Mmmmmm, no. The woman will not necessarily have a bad conscience over her. For one, it is in our nature (as well as dear near every other animals) as animals that the mother will protect the child to all costs. She will have fullfilled her duty in killing the murderer/harmer of her child. Some women would have bad conscience after it, some wouldn't. Same way some men come back from war with a conscience and others don't. Personally, I don't think I would. If World War III ever comes about, I'm grabbin' a gun and going out to die on the frontlines. And what suffering of the rapist? Nelson I seem to remember you making this mistake before. Thinking that all criminals feel bad for what they did and have suffering inside them. It's just not true. However, I agree that killing a prisoner is the easy way out for them. Which is why I'm against the death penalty. Death is much easier than 25 years in prison.


"In vengence, everyone loses. Violence only creates violence."

Violence is sometimes necessary.
 
The crime commited is not "discommited"...
If the criminal killed a person and the criminal goes to jail, this won't revive the person...
Click to expand...

Your point being?

She killed someone... she will never forget it... that's not a vengence, it's a present!
Click to expand...

*Xev shrugs*

So what if she won't forget? There are plenty of things I'd like never to forget, like last friday night and where I put my keys.

The rapist stops suffering,
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Nelson, are you mental? :bugeye:

He ain't suffering.

*Xev shrugs again*

So kill him in a extremely painfull way. An injection of NaOH of high molarity would do the trick, I expect.

she gets a bad conscience
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I assure you that I myself would feel no more guilt than I would for shooting a rabid dog. Might even get some satisfaction out of having done a good deed.

and the brother of the rapist won't like very nuch the situation...
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Fuck him then.

In vengence, everyone loses. Violence only creates violence.
Click to expand...

And you've proven this soooooo well.
 
Tyler,

By that logic there is zero way to solve the problem.
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Forgiveness... if doesn't solve it, at least don't create other...

Mmmmmm, no. The woman will not necessarily have a bad conscience over her. For one, it is in our nature (as well as dear near every other animals) as animals that the mother will protect the child to all costs. She will have fullfilled her duty in killing the murderer/harmer of her child. Some women would have bad conscience after it, some wouldn't. Same way some men come back from war with a conscience and others don't. Personally, I don't think I would. If World War III ever comes about, I'm grabbin' a gun and going out to die on the frontlines. And what suffering of the rapist? Nelson I seem to remember you making this mistake before. Thinking that all criminals feel bad for what they did and have suffering inside them. It's just not true. However, I agree that killing a prisoner is the easy way out for them. Which is why I'm against the death penalty. Death is much easier than 25 years in prison.
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I agree...

Violence is sometimes necessary.
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No. Anything that is bad is necessary. Is it necessary for your body to get sick? No. Violence is not necessary in society either...


Xev,

Your point being?
Click to expand...

See above...

So what if she won't forget? There are plenty of things I'd like never to forget, like last friday night and where I put my keys.
Click to expand...

...?

So kill him in a extremely painfull way. An injection of NaOH of high molarity would do the trick, I expect.
Click to expand...

Why do you want someone to suffer?

I assure you that I myself would feel no more guilt than I would for shooting a rabid dog. Might even get some satisfaction out of having done a good deed.
Click to expand...

In the moment you are doing... perhaps... but after...
Have you ever shouted to someone? Does it ever feel good after it happens?

And you've proven this soooooo well.
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Read the history of humanity...:bugeye:
 
"Forgiveness... if doesn't solve it, at least don't create other..."

Hahahhahahaha! You are a very dumb boy!

Nelson, tell ya what. You and I and your three most loved ones will move to an individual island away from laws. There I will rape the women and then kill all three of them. Not only that, but I will make them suffer. And you have to watch.

Then you and I will come back to Canada. You don't think I shoudl be arrested eh? Even if I tell you straight out that I will definetly kill again.


"No. Anything that is bad is necessary. Is it necessary for your body to get sick? No. Violence is not necessary in society either..."

Sickness does serve purposes. Anyway, that's not important to the question. Violence isn't necessary?

Okay, well, I'm half Jewish. So if the Allied nations had decided violence was not to be used, I would not be alive. Thanks for killing me and my family Nelson.


"In the moment you are doing... perhaps... but after...
Have you ever shouted to someone? Does it ever feel good after it happens?"

I've physically beat someone. A guy at a party tried to force himself on a girl. I intervened and physically attacked him. Haven't regretted it to this day. And I haven't felt sorry for him ever. And I never once had a guilty conscience about it.
 
Forgiveness... if doesn't solve it, at least don't create other...
Click to expand...

It sure as fuck causes problems if you have a bunch of rapists and murderers running about willy-nilly!

Why do you want someone to suffer?
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*Xev weeps and bashes her head on her keyboard*

Nelson, I'm going to put this veeeeeeeery simply so that you can understand:

Rape is generally regarded as unpleasent. I think even one as inexperienced as yourself can understand this - it is rather ingrained in our culture.

Okay, maybe that was a bit confusing for you.

Rape = Bad.

That better?

*Xev prays to the Great Cthulhu that it is simple enough*

In the moment you are doing... perhaps... but after...
Have you ever shouted to someone? Does it ever feel good after it happens?
Click to expand...

Nelson, HOW IN THE FUCK WOULD YOU KNOW HOW SHE WOULD FEEL AFTERWORDS?

I do not know what my reaction would be, so HOW IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS RIGHT WITH THE WORLD WOULD YOU?!

I do doubt that I would feel any guilt. I once had to have a violent dog euthanized after I was bitten. I felt regret, but no guilt.

I imagine my reaction would be simular.
 
'Nelson, HOW IN THE FUCK WOULD YOU KNOW HOW SHE WOULD FEEL AFTERWORDS?

I do not know what my reaction would be, so HOW IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS RIGHT WITH THE WORLD WOULD YOU?!"

Nelson has visited many countries. And he's an elder at 18 long years of age. So he knows everything abotu human nature.
 
In many species, the mother will not[/I} protect the child at any cost. In some, the mother will sit back and whine while the new alpha male kills the infants of the previous alpha male. Why? If she fights, she will get killed and her genes end. If she accepts it, she gets to shag the new alpha male and her genes have a better chance of continuing.
 
I'll provide some book knowledge :):

our legal system is not based on justice. Our legal system is only an ordering of human relations. Justice is a nice side effect that sometimes occurs

Our punitive laws have two aspects: repression and prevention. Repression means that the punishment is supposed to hurt the criminal and provide vengeancd for the victims. Prevention means that since a criminal knows the law in advance, it will make him think twice before acting.

Of course our legal system should be based on justice, and every day great steps towards that ideal are made, along with at least as much steps away from that ideal.

The original meaning of the state according to some, was giving the monopoly of punishment to the state, again, to provide that minimal livable condition, not necessarily a system of justice.
 
actully you missed the two most important ones

rehab and protection

its THOSE that the judges are expected to put the most weight on
 
you're right. I guess I stayed in the vengeance department too much.

Thanks!
 
Tyler,

Won't even lose my time...


Xev,

*Xev weeps and bashes her head on her keyboard*

Nelson, I'm going to put this veeeeeeeery simply so that you can understand:

Rape is generally regarded as unpleasent. I think even one as inexperienced as yourself can understand this - it is rather ingrained in our culture.

Okay, maybe that was a bit confusing for you.

Rape = Bad.

That better?

*Xev prays to the Great Cthulhu that it is simple enough*
Click to expand...

You don't know my life. You don't know with whom you are talking to... so don't judge me that fast...:bugeye:
 
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