Is GOD really as perfect and flawless as religions say?

[sly1]

FYI - when I say GOD i mean "The concept of GOD"

Is GOD as all powerful as he is made up to be? I find soooo many flaws with the various ideas and concepts of GOD that I believe that GOD is the creation of humans; and this is why....

First off in most religions God; in so many words; is a flawless entity which is all powerful. GOD is the creator of humans and the universe. I find that God cannot be flawless because GOD created a set of rules that are pointless because they cannot be fallowed. Also because GOD created the beings that are expected to follow these rules, but GOD created them so they wont follow the rules. If GOD is all powerful GOD would have seen his mistakes and known GODs logic is pointless.

A person who is very religious would argue with me saying that I have no idea as to the intentions of GOD or what GOD has planned or why GOD has done what GOD has done because i am a mere mortal and yada yada yada. Where as i just find those arguement as CONVIENIENT easy answer and overall lazy. By the way I hope to not come off as an attack of religions and the religious but rather someone who is questioning them as to better understand religion and most of all the idea of GOD. I am seraching for someone who has a logical, proveable, testable, answer or suggestion.

It is known that you CANNOT prove the negative. So I cannot prove that GOD does not exist. Its the other way around....GOD must be proven to exist. In law the defendant is innocent until he is proven guilty simply because you cannot prove the negative. Instead you must prove that something happened not that somthing did not happen.

It just seems to me that religion works because it is convienient. Religion and GOD will always exist because it connot be proven otherwise. That is why religion is convienient.
I kind of went off topic a bit here but....back on my main purpose.....Can anyone explain the flaws in the concept of God that i have mentioned. I have other flaws but I will save them for examples in my responces.

L8rz

 

[marv]

As an atheist, I'm not interested in proving that a deity either does exist or does not. I do not proselytize so for me the whole question is moot.

But mankind in general is full of questions. Lacking answers for what are deemed to be the more important questions, he tends to invent them. Therefore, there are gods. I won't go so far as to say that there will come a time when the gods will disappear, but the need for them diminishes as time goes on. Perhaps we'll eventually return to the attitude of the ancient Greeks to whom the gods were more useful as excuses than explanations.

 

[sly1]

The question i pose wouldnt be as important to me if many of the decisions made in the world today that effect both you and I were not made on religous beliefs or with GOD in mind. I agree that with time the need for god will diminsh but reguardless decisions today are made with religous beliefs and God in mind. Im not nieve enought to think i will change anyone's beliefs or how the world works with this thread, the only thing i expect is a little insite as to the thought process as to why the concept of GOD came to be and why it is still here reguarless of the many flaws the concept has.

 

[Q25]

It is known that you CANNOT prove the negative

are you sure about that?
www.graveyardofthegods.com/articles/cantprovenegative.html

 

[sly1]

very good on finding that link.....i guess in some instances you can prove a negative.......I thought about that when I was in jury duty once and the defence attourney said that you cannot prove the negative and gave an example. After he told me that I asked myself....why then are alibi's needed in most court cases when involveing the accused. That would be an example of proving the negative. I agree that in certain instances that involve logic the negative can be proven. Now we are talking about God in the religous sense.......so when i was useing "cant prove the negative" in this instance i was not incorrect. Even according to your link.

Good job again finding that link.....
I learned somthing new.

 

[zanket]

First off in most religions God; in so many words; is a flawless entity which is all powerful. GOD is the creator of humans and the universe. I find that God cannot be flawless because GOD created a set of rules that are pointless because they cannot be fallowed. Also because GOD created the beings that are expected to follow these rules, but GOD created them so they wont follow the rules. If GOD is all powerful GOD would have seen his mistakes and known GODs logic is pointless.

God can be flawless if man used free will created the rules you find pointless. God in its perfection gave man free will to create pointless rules. Would you rather have free will to create pointless rules, or be an automaton following practical rules?

It is known that you CANNOT prove the negative. So I cannot prove that GOD does not exist. Its the other way around....GOD must be proven to exist.

Since apparently neither can be done, an alternate method works best for me. Using logic and intuition you can surmise what God must be like were it perfect. In that way I have surmised that God cannot be proven to exist, so that we have free will to live as if God does not exist.

It just seems to me that religion works because it is convienient. Religion and GOD will always exist because it connot be proven otherwise. That is why religion is convienient.

And profitable. I suggest separating religion from spirituality. The former is more about money and power. The latter is more about God.

 

[sly1]

When I was speaking of the "rules" I was talking about those which GOD supposedly created......such as the 10 commandments. Any rule a human creates has potential to be flawed or in most cases will always be flawed.

If laws/rules are not followed do they still server a purpose?

quote:
"Would you rather have free will to create pointless rules, or be an automaton following practical rules?"

It doesnt matter because If I was an automation Im sure I wouldnt realise I was an Automation therefor I wouldnt even care that I was an Automation following practical rules.....

quote:
"God can be flawless if man used free will created the rules you find pointless. God in its perfection gave man free will to create pointless rules."

GOD can only be flawless if man decides he is flawless........Which leads me to believe man created GOD, because GOD tends to moprh to the ideals and concepts man adheres to at that point in time. So if the ideals and concepts one man gives to GOD conflict with ideas and concepts another man gives to GOD both deny the existance of the others GOD. If you define GOD through the bible......well..... give me some time Im sure I can come up with a few contradictions in the bible that will shine with errors of man.

L8rZ

 

[Medicine*Woman]

sly1: When I was speaking of the "rules" I was talking about those which GOD supposedly created......such as the 10 commandments. Any rule a human creates has potential to be flawed or in most cases will always be flawed.
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M*W: The legend goes that when Moses went upon the mountain, God gave him the Ten Commandments. The god that existed in Moses' head was the Egyptian god, Atun, the Sun. So, it was the sun who "gave" Moses the Ten Commandments. It was NOT the Hebrew monotheistic god. When Moses asked the name of the god who was allegedly talking to him, Moses said god's name was "YHWH." Moses wrote the Ten Commandments to control the Egyptian Habiru who were following him in the desert. Moses may have written the Pentateuch during the sojourn in the desert. The forty years represents a lifetime in those days. These people were nomad sheep herders (shepherds). Their normal lifestyle was wandering in the desert, so in reality, they weren't leaving Egypt on any "exodus." There were simply doing what nomads do -- they wander in the desert. Moses never made it to the "Promised Land," but his followers, the Habiru, did. They possibly carried Moses' writings with them. The tribe of Habiru became the ancient Hebrews of the Promised Land. Moses' Ten Commandments were created by Moses -- not God (who was the sun). Did the Sun really speak to Moses? or was Moses delusional from sunstroke?
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sly1: If laws/rules are not followed do they still server a purpose?
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M*W: Yes, they do serve a purpose, even if they were written by human hands and were flawed. Moses wrote the Ten Commandments, but those were Moses' words -- not the Sun god's words.
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sly1: GOD can only be flawless if man decides he is flawless.... Which leads me to believe man created GOD, because GOD tends to moprh to the ideals and concepts man adheres to at that point in time. So if the ideals and concepts one man gives to GOD conflict with ideas and concepts another man gives to GOD both deny the existance of the others GOD. If you define GOD through the bible....well.... give me some time Im sure I can come up with a few contradictions in the bible that will shine with errors of man.
*************
M*W: This is true. Man created God -- not the other way around. Interestingly, the Pentateuch was written and addressed to the monotheistic sun worshipping Habiru Egyptians, yet, it became the Torah of the Jews even though it was based on Aten worship! Everytime one says "Amen," they are worshipping Aten-Amen, the Sun God.

 

[zanket]

When I was speaking of the "rules" I was talking about those which GOD supposedly created......such as the 10 commandments. Any rule a human creates has potential to be flawed or in most cases will always be flawed.

If God created any rule it would be flawed, for that would diminish our free will. From that you can surmise that all rules are created by man.

If laws/rules are not followed do they still server a purpose?

Sure. We have laws that serve us even though not everyone follows them. An advanced society can function well without laws; our society isn’t there yet.

It doesnt matter because If I was an automation Im sure I wouldnt realise I was an Automation therefor I wouldnt even care that I was an Automation following practical rules.....

Let me rephrase the question: Would you rather have free will to create pointless rules, or be forced to follow practical rules?

GOD can only be flawless if man decides he is flawless........Which leads me to believe man created GOD, because GOD tends to moprh to the ideals and concepts man adheres to at that point in time.

Or God is flawless because it gave man free will to believe this.

So if the ideals and concepts one man gives to GOD conflict with ideas and concepts another man gives to GOD both deny the existance of the others GOD.

Yes. However, you can surmise a God that conflicts with nobody else’s. Such God lets each man choose what ideals and concepts to give to God.

If you define GOD through the bible......well..... give me some time Im sure I can come up with a few contradictions in the bible that will shine with errors of man.

You certainly can, because the bible was created by man.

 

[Red Devil]

I am unsure how many times I say this but this sentient being known popularly as god is the invention of the weak minded to explain the unexplainable. Ezekiel: the flaming chariot, as the concept of flight, let alone space flight, was completely alien then, therefore it MUST be god!!!

 

[sly1]

Interestingly I am learning quite a bit here......"Medicine Woman" I have never heard the story of moses and the 10 commandments the way you addressed it. I have always heard a different version of course because my whole family is Christian or Catholic....excluding me......so those religions are the only religions I can say i somewhat understand. Do you have a referance for more information on that so I may look at it closer?

 

[Yorda]

Moses wrote the Ten Commandments, but those were Moses' words -- not the Sun god's words.

Of course Moses, as a human being, wrote them, but God expresses himself through humans, and since Moses became all-consciouss,
he was doing the exact thing "God" would have done. Everything is an expression, an image, of that which we call God.

M*W: This is true. Man created God -- not the other way around. Interestingly, the Pentateuch was written and addressed to the monotheistic sun worshipping Habiru Egyptians, yet, it became the Torah of the Jews even though it was based on Aten worship! Everytime one says "Amen," they are worshipping Aten-Amen, the Sun God.

God created man, then man created a copy of God.
Jews and Christians believe in a formless God.
Amen means "Let your (God's) will be done."

 

[Medicine*Woman]

sly1: Interestingly I am learning quite a bit here.... "Medicine Woman" I have never heard the story of moses and the 10 commandments the way you addressed it. I have always heard a different version of course because my whole family is Christian or Catholic....excluding me......so those religions are the only religions I can say i somewhat understand. Do you have a referance for more information on that so I may look at it closer?
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M*W: My sources are:

Moses and Akhenaten: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus, by Ahmed Osman, 2002

Stranger in the Valley of the Kings, by Ahmed Osman, 1987

Egypt of the Pharaohs, by Alan H Gardiner, 1961

Moses and Monotheism, by Sigmund Freud, 1939

I hope you find these references useful.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Yorda: Of course Moses, as a human being, wrote them, but God expresses himself through humans, and since Moses became all-consciouss, he was doing the exact thing "God" would have done. Everything is an expression, an image, of that which we call God.
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M*W: Do you actually think the sun talked to Moses and told him what to write down? How do you know the "exact thing 'God' would have done?" Apparently, you have anthropomorphized the sun into some kind of humanized god. What you are calling 'God' is just a fantasy. Do you believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, too?
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Yorda: God created man, then man created a copy of God. Jews and Christians believe in a formless God.
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M*W: How do you know God created man? Please provide evidence for this statement. Man created God when he thought God was the Sun.
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Yorda: Amen means "Let your (God's) will be done."
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M*W: That may be what you believe, but that is not true. Moses established the "Amen" when he wrote the Pentateuch, and it followed throughout the NT. "Amen" pays allegience to the Sun God -- Aten, also known as Amenhotep III, Moses' biological father -- a pharaoh of the 18th Dynasty in Egypt. I cited some references in a previous post regarding the life and times of Moses. Perhaps you should read them before you make statements you cannot provide evidence for.

 

[Red Devil]

Interestingly I am learning quite a bit here......"Medicine Woman" I have never heard the story of moses and the 10 commandments the way you addressed it. I have always heard a different version of course because my whole family is Christian or Catholic....excluding me......so those religions are the only religions I can say i somewhat understand. Do you have a referance for more information on that so I may look at it closer?

http://www.mikekemble.com/egypt/moses.html

 

[Yorda]

How do you know the "exact thing 'God' would have done?" Apparently, you have anthropomorphized the sun into some kind of humanized god. What you are calling 'God' is just a fantasy. Do you believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, too?

You can only know what God would do if you are God. The sun is an image of God, expressing itself only on the first, material, state; but man is able to express God fully. Man is an image of God, not the other way around. Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are symbolic. God is in everything.

M*W: How do you know God created man? Please provide evidence for this statement. Man created God when he thought God was the Sun.

Something created man and everything else. Of course it's just a "natural thing", but I still call it God in lack of a better word. The ancient sun-God didn't mean the sun itself, but the creator of the sun and everything else. But it's true that the son of man started to worship the image, the physical sun itself!

M*W: That may be what you believe, but that is not true. Moses established the "Amen" when he wrote the Pentateuch, and it followed throughout the NT. "Amen" pays allegience to the Sun God -- Aten, also known as Amenhotep III, Moses' biological father -- a pharaoh of the 18th Dynasty in Egypt. I cited some references in a previous post regarding the life and times of Moses. Perhaps you should read them before you make statements you cannot provide evidence for.

The history doesn't really matter, the word amen and the man Moses has a new meaning now.

 

[Leo Volont]

Is GOD as all powerful as he is made up to be? I find soooo many flaws with the various ideas and concepts of GOD that I believe that GOD is the creation of humans; and this is why....

First off in most religions God; in so many words; is a flawless entity which is all powerful. GOD is the creator of humans and the universe. I find that God cannot be flawless because GOD created a set of rules that are pointless because they cannot be fallowed.... L8rz

First off, you talk about the God of Absolutes being the product of Religions. Actually not. The God you find so easy to disprove was the creation of Philosophy. The first thing Philosophers did was to define a God by impossible standards so that the second thing they could do was to say that God did not exist because He could not meet their own definition of Him. Silly, huh? That that is Philosophy for you.

As for the rules you can't follow. Those were the Laws set up by Civilizations. You want a Civilization, then you have to follow rules. If you want endless Rape and Pillage, then I guess rules are not so important. But in a Civilization, we all need to exercise some restraint in order to all live together -- we must all agree to maintain a surplus of food, and to not touch the Seed Grain from season to season, which is the first prerequisite for a Civilization. And then there must be arrangements of law in order to keep the peace over wider social arrangements then what had been ordinary. In Primitive Societies, social units were not much larger than 100 people. These small units were affiliated by Klan, and then by Tribe and then by Language. Peace was never certain even among the most closely related social Units but the further stretched the relationship the more likely it would be for there to exist conflict. Civilization, to be successful, would have to impose a new all inclusive and convincing Relationship that could subsume all the Groups, Klans and Tribes. Ordinarily this was done with Religion.

Now, do away with Religion, and what do you have left that could keep the Peace and keep disparate Social Groups from taring each other apart? Nothing. Today we are supposed to be convinced that 'Democracy' will keep the Peace, but quite the opposite! Democracy sets to War the various Ethnic Groups and encourages a slaughter, as Majorities Win and Minorities Lose -- to Win all you have to do is murder your opposition. We have seen how Democracy has degenerated into Genocide on every continent but Antartica. Woodrow Wilson had even announced the Doctrine that Democracy would resolve into Ethnic Self-Determination -- he could not invision a Nation that could include more than one Ethnic or Language Group without civil conflict. Woodrow Wilson was thus the first Nazi and Adolf Hitler nothing more than a good Wilsonian. But Religions have had a History of successfully combining various nations, ethnic and language Groups.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Yorda: You can only know what God would do if you are God. The sun is an image of God, expressing itself only on the first, material, state; but man is able to express God fully. Man is an image of God, not the other way around. Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are symbolic. God is in everything.
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M*W: You would be correct, if there was a god. The original god was the sun. Ancient humans feared it. The sun was the creator of all. Only later people began calling the sun, the Sun of God, the God's sun, the Son of God, etc. It was only recently that I came to realize that god doesn't really exist. When I came to sciforums, I didn't believe in the dying demigod savior myth, but I still believed in god as a force of positive energy. I realize now that this force of positive energy still lives within all creation, but it is NOT god! For lack of a better name to call this positive energy, people still can call it god if they wish. But it's the energy that is real -- NOT a god per se. But to answer your question about the sun being worshipped as an "image" of god, from everything I've read it is actually the sun who is god, not an image of the sun. However, instead of me repeating it a gazillion times on the forum, I have written extensively about the energy that flows through all creation, so you can check my archives for more information
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Yorda: Something created man and everything else. Of course it's just a "natural thing", but I still call it God in lack of a better word. The ancient sun-God didn't mean the sun itself, but the creator of the sun and everything else. But it's true that the son of man started to worship the image, the physical sun itself!
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M*W: See my previous response. Yes, "something" did create man and everything else. It was the sun and it was random. Briefly, ice covered the Earth after the Big Bang. We are still Big Banging today -- from the ripple effect of the Big Bang. Then our solar system was formed, and the sun was the center of our universe. The sun melted the ice caps and made the oceans and the oceans warmed making life appear -- plants and lower animals. As time went on, the ocean life developed legs and crawled onto land. Then we came along and worshipped the sun. You say "god is all," I say "creation is all." Everything was created by the warmth of the sun.
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Yorda: The history doesn't really matter, the word amen and the man Moses has a new meaning now.
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M*W: Sure, I'll agree to that, but it still remains an Egyptian word honoring the pharaoh Moses who was also called Aminadab, Amenhotep IV, Tuthmosis, IV, Akhenaten, Aten, and Amen. Regardless of how the word "amen" is used today, it STILL MEANS "whatever pharaoh wants, pharaoh gets."

 

[sly1]

First off thanks for the referances "Red Devil" and "Medicine Woman".

Its become aparent to me after reading through the responces that the idea or concept of GOD's morphs constantly in order to try and prove itself true. It seems that so many different concepts or ideals of GOD have been created, that GOD in my opinion, can be considered ideas and nothing more than ideas. I have determine that in most cases involving current thought processes of God that you will never be able to prove GODs existance logicly. In math and science if you have a theory you must prove it to be true useing logic......In all cases reguarding current concepts of GOD I do not know one that has been created using logic....math or science....so trying to understand the concepts of GOD scientificly it pointless yet many still try......I conclude that in the end.....GOD really does exits and always will exist as long as the human being has a brain and imagination. GOD will only be as powerful as WE - YOU beLIEve him to be.....

L8rz

 

[Red Devil]

The sun is an image of God, expressing itself only on the first, material, state;

now I know your loopy. The Sun is an image of god, I thought it was a dirty great big nuclear furnace!!! Oh, hang on, your egyptian - the sun is RA!