Is death a prerequisite to be a savior?

M

Medicine*Woman

Jesus: Mythstory--Not History!
Valued Senior Member
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M*W: I certainly don't know all the saviors of the world, so my main focus for asking this question is based on the dying demigod savior of christianity Jesus. Why was death required of Jesus in order to save the world? This seems counter-productive to me. If Jesus weren't required to die and rise and leave the world, he could have stuck around and done some good like feeding the poor, healing the sick, and turning more water into wine for the homeless. Why did Jesus have to die at all?

DISCLAIMER: For the purpose of this question, let's assume Jesus existed.
 
Jesus, Joseph Smith, David Koresh, they all have untimely deaths in common, sure. It's odd how death slingshots people to cult status,.... just take Elvis and Bruce Lee as examples.

Is it required? I guess so. It prevents the figure from falling from grace. If Jesus had got old and fat and got divorced by Mary when she found out he was having an affair with Judas, it would have just got messy.
 
In Christian belief the death of Jesus was an act of atonement for all past and future sin. Christians generally believe that the torture and subsequent murder of the Christ was an ultimate act of atonement. That is why you hear people stating that "Jesus died for you." They believe that his death has made them pure in the eyes of God.
In other religions the death of a massianic figure represents their achievment of an ultimate goal, generally transcedence. In Buddhism they say "If you meet Bhudda on the road, slay him." This is refferencing that Bhudda is supposed to have achieved universal transcendence. He has gone on to a state of being that all others should seek to attain. I believe this is the true guiding force beneath all religions and their Iconic figures. They have achieved a state of being that we should all aspire to.
 
phlogistician said:
Jesus, Joseph Smith, David Koresh, they all have untimely deaths in common, sure. It's odd how death slingshots people to cult status,.... just take Elvis and Bruce Lee as examples.

Is it required? I guess so. It prevents the figure from falling from grace. If Jesus had got old and fat and got divorced by Mary when she found out he was having an affair with Judas, it would have just got messy.
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Oh no your starting to be funny like Me. Jesus was suicidal megalomaniac like Me. A working Man disillusioned with the way of the times he lived in . The voices he heard told him to kill him self and to follow a perceived protocol dictated by the past . I can hear the same language telling Me to kill my self. I don't listen to it , or better yet I don't believe in the message . Someone has to brake the curse is how I feel about it . Why not Me. I think I can ! I think I can I think I can! I think I can! I already drove the stake in the vampires heart by way of social slavering in the construction industry for 40 years . That seems to be some kind of magic number in bible prophesies .

O.K. this is funny , I was just starting Morris log House and we dig down to grade and what have you it is muck yuck wet clay for another 2 and a half feet to 3 ft. before we hit solid rock . Then it was an underground stream flowing over the rock . Fuck Me and my horse, What a fucking nightmare . So I contact my geo engineer friend who owes Me a favor . I call in the favor and he engineers a system that will not fail under the conditions . So a lot of builders would have just taken a chance and fucked er up good knowing the results of there fuck up would not be noticed for many many years down the road . Not Me I eat it big time , dig all the clay out , spend massive amounts of money bringing in shot rock and rapping with appropriate barriers of fabric Layers of other gravels and what have you to achieve a solid base to pour on above the existing underground stream . Boom done 10,000 of mine pissed away to make things right . So this being my Nine mile job and me living in a dream wold of the Nine Mile valley like it was Cloud Nine . I am re reading the new testament cause I am positive the forces of nature are yelling at Me with a stern stoic voice not in my head . but coming from out side influences . I was just friggen freaking big time from what I was hearing coming out of all souses were ever I was going . So I was finding comfort in the new testament. Some one then told me that the Book of Luke was the Healing book and I should read it and it would help me to understand better . So I come to this part: Luke 46 to the end of 49 . Go read it for your self if you Dare . So reinforcement was incurred . I saw my self as the work Man and it was by a deed I had already done in just the last couple of weeks . Freak butt coinkidink . Maybe ? But it synchronicity is still going on relentless like . I don't read the bible so much as of late for I know all to well I will find glimpse of my actions already written . Question is :
Do I follow the writings our did the writings predict my movements . Was it set in stone by outside influence of a Pharaohs wish for the Kingdom to prosper or do I follow the goals of a dream in progress
 
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phlogistician said:
Jesus, Joseph Smith, David Koresh, they all have untimely deaths in common, sure. It's odd how death slingshots people to cult status,.... just take Elvis and Bruce Lee as examples.
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I really dont know much about Joseph Smith but David Koresh's death didnt "slingshot" him into cult status at all.

Elvis and Bruce Lee, made no difference to their popularity but actually didnt help at all...Hell you cant even say it "slingshot" Hendrix into cult status. Use your damn head.:rolleyes:
 
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Jesus' death was needed to seal the new covenant with the Father, in the same manner as a traditional Jewish animal sacrifice. (Hence, He is the "Lamb of God" in that He is the perfect sacrificial offering.)

That said, the Jewish messiah was a savior figure, and yet he was supposed to triumph over the enemies of the Jews, so I doubt that death is needed in every content where a "savior" rises.

The more difficult questions to me are: (i) if God wanted to forgive mankind's sins, why require a sacrifice at all? (ii) If a sacrifice were needed why was God making a sacrifice to Himself for the purpose rather than asking the people of the world to make the sacrifice? (iii) Assuming a sacrifice were needed, why revert to a human sacrifice when Judaism had otherwise eliminated that tradition?
 
I'm partial to the fascinating paradoxical concept of the Salvator Salvandus (a Latin phrase, translated as "the Savior who is in need of being saved").

The mystery of the Incarnation of God in a human being tends to be botched when you try to short-circuit the paradox (or even contradiction) symbolized by it -- either by conceiving it as all-powerful God using an empty human vessel; or on the other hand, as a mere man merely "inspired" by God in a wishy-washy Wayne Dyer sort of way.

As my professor explained it, the Incarnation is not 50% God + 50% Man (let alone, as implied above, 100% God and 0% Man or vice versa -- nor some other arithmetic calculated to minimize the astonishing paradox), but rather 100% God + 100% Man.

Or, if you like (to borrow the multiplication metaphor in explaining the Trinity as not 1 + 1 + 1 but rather 1 X 1 X 1): it was God X Man.
 
God becoming man, was an example of walking a mile in someone else's shoes. From the comfort of heaven, God could not figure out why so few humans could get with his program. The god of the old testament was very grouchy. But once God walked a mile in man's shoes, and saw, first-hand, all the pitfalls of human nature and the persecutions from other humans, he understood. From the ivory tower the pions seem such a bother. But being among the pions god learned something.

One may ask, why don't the inner city kids just get away from gangs and drugs. It is easy to be an expert of good choice in the safety of a nice house on a nice street. But get an apartment in the ghetto and collect real data. It may not be their fault, because of pressures and pitfalls.

Jesus came as a nice guy trying to do good. This is how you should be, see this is easy. But there was always pressure to conform to less that the ideal he already was, so others could retain positions of power and wealth at the big table. The system was messed up by doctrines of men. Jesus learned the answer to the age old question of why humans could not get with God's program. It was not their fault.

It was fear of death that held them all captive. Jesus had to confront this human fear and walk that last mile in their shoes. Walking this last mile, god realized even those who persecuted others had something hanging over their heads; fear.

In the analogy above, you move into the ghetto for many years. There are drugs and gangs and life has little joy and little future. To get the full experience you may need to go deeper into the gutter of dispair. Once God realized what humans were up against, he opened the gates of heaven. Jesus goes to hell to free those held captive, dope slaps Satan, and comes back to give hope.

The death of the Savior was so Gd could drink from the cup of humanity and not remain aloof in his ivory tower shaking his head over the pions. Instead the lesson softened God's heart and he changed approach.
 
Hesperado said:
I'm partial to the fascinating paradoxical concept of the Salvator Salvandus (a Latin phrase, translated as "the Savior who is in need of being saved").

The mystery of the Incarnation of God in a human being tends to be botched when you try to short-circuit the paradox (or even contradiction) symbolized by it -- either by conceiving it as all-powerful God using an empty human vessel; or on the other hand, as a mere man merely "inspired" by God in a wishy-washy Wayne Dyer sort of way.

As my professor explained it, the Incarnation is not 50% God + 50% Man (let alone, as implied above, 100% God and 0% Man or vice versa -- nor some other arithmetic calculated to minimize the astonishing paradox), but rather 100% God + 100% Man.

Or, if you like (to borrow the multiplication metaphor in explaining the Trinity as not 1 + 1 + 1 but rather 1 X 1 X 1): it was God X Man.
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That is strange. How did you come up with that "God X Man again ?
Dwy are you getting this ? Got Milk !
 
hmmm....

Previous to "Slave morality" as prescribed by such as Jesus, Socrates, Zoroaster....the ancients believed great men rose up and became gods themselves, through feats(Heracles) or by Guile(Persus) or by slaying gods themselves (Gilgamesh).

People felt like they could perhaps do that too or something...
 
The whole Jesus died for you sends wrong messages to my brain. It says that in Christianity it's okay to pass the blame from one person to another and that it is quite alright to make someone take responsibility for my actions.As for the actual act of dying for humanity, it wasn't much of a sacrifice since he came back to life 3 days later.A sacrifice from himself to himself is questionable taste.Isn't God all knowing? If so God already knew how humans would act once he created them and all the events that followed. :shrug:
 
Medicine*Woman said:
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M*W: I certainly don't know all the saviors of the world, so my main focus for asking this question is based on the dying demigod savior of christianity Jesus. Why was death required of Jesus in order to save the world? This seems counter-productive to me.
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I agree. Death is not a requirement to be a savior in my opinion. Also it makes no sense to me that Jesus had to suffer so much just to make up for the sins of other people.
 
Quite simply, Jesus died for the sins of the world.

for - because of

Anyone who dies at the hands of another dies because of the "sins of the world".
 
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