Is Buddhism a religion?

I can't totally trust anyone...well, I expect them to betray me even when I do trust them. That's why I can't really do organized religion. I don't trust, I can't think that anyone in authority actually has my interest at heart, I don't ever feel a part of any group I'm in.

Maybe I should pursue enlightenment though...if I was able to really figure out I'm an illusion and get that realization to stay stuck, I wouldn't care what people did to me anymore, would I?

What was that phrase we always said as kids "I am rubber and you are glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you!" I can't remember if it ever really worked. I'm sure not, otherwise therapy session 2:00 pm wouldn't be noted on my smartphone so much.
BB
 
I suppose, if that is appealing.
It feels like dying, actually. Terrifying, the idea of giving up myself.
On the other hand, I find living terrifying and mostly painful a lot of the time.
So, if I'm going to be terrified and miserable anyway, why not be terrified and miserable in a brand new way?
Bluebaby:
What was that phrase we always said as kids "I am rubber and you are glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you!" I can't remember if it ever really worked. I'm sure not, otherwise therapy session 2:00 pm wouldn't be noted on my smartphone so much.
As small children we look to parents to define us, and are very susceptible to whatever they say because we are literally biologically set up to have that information learned hard and fast. A child can learn two languages easily, an adult loses that neuroplasticity, for instance.
So if your parents programmed you well enough to hate yourself as a small child, then you get to deal with self-hatred like one would deal with kudzu in the deep south. It'll always come back, no matter what, so you just have to keep whacking it down and pulling it up.
 
It feels like dying, actually. Terrifying, the idea of giving up myself.
On the other hand, I find living terrifying and mostly painful a lot of the time.
So, if I'm going to be terrified and miserable anyway, why not be terrified and miserable in a brand new way?
If it seems worth the effort - iow to engage in a long term disciplined process to acheive different bad feelings - and it seems like the best goal you can shoot for.

As small children we look to parents to define us, and are very susceptible to whatever they say because we are literally biologically set up to have that information learned hard and fast. A child can learn two languages easily, an adult loses that neuroplasticity, for instance.
So if your parents programmed you well enough to hate yourself as a small child, then you get to deal with self-hatred like one would deal with kudzu in the deep south. It'll always come back, no matter what, so you just have to keep whacking it down and pulling it up.
Actually they have found that neuroplasticity carries all the way through adult life. I recommend the book, The Brain That Changes Itself. It is not so much a psychological book, but in fact tracks people who managed to change the way their brains worked to degrees unthought of within Western science just a few decades ago. We now know that adult brains can change dramatically. In one case the father of one of the pioneering scientists covered in the book had a major stroke. They told the family he would be institutionalized permanently, never walk, talk, etc. Well, the scientist in question was skeptical about this general idea in neuroscience and he trained his father to walk, talk, etc., the undamaged portions of the brain taking over the jobs. And his father was past retirement age when this happened.
 
And it is better to be conned than to know how to recognize a conman, eh?
I didn't say that. It's possible to learn the skills necessary to spot a con artist, at least well enough to catch most of them. The problem is that you end up learning things about humans and human nature that you didn't really want to know. For some people this can shatter their faith in humanity and make them hopeless cynics.

From personal experience I see some religions as loosing their religion, so to speak. They are loosing their differences and becoming more about social changes and personal changes rather than a doctrine of some god. One world "religion" is not such a far off concept. It is evident in Christianity and in Islam (social reform, etc). So why not in Buddhism? A melding, a blending, as we become less and less isolated from others who "believe" differently.
This is no surprise. All the world's communities are being brought together by the Electronic Revolution--after this trend was started by the rapid transportation of the Industrial Revolution. The more people interact with people more distant from themselves (both geographically and culturally), the more they share the things that make them who they are.

I look at how much the USA has changed in the 51 years since I left high school and went off to a distant city to attend a university. Distant, ha! Only 500 miles. Today that seems like nothing. But that's my point. America was a bunch of little regional cultures back then. Because of Industrial Era transportation, I had already moved from Chicago to Arizona to Los Angeles, but I still found the people and the culture of Alabama or Oklahoma a little strange, and some of the accents were difficult to understand. Today there are only a few regions that are very different from each other.

And the same is happening on a global scale. China calls itself communist, but the people who run their businesses are all capitalists. India's Bollywood movies are popular all over Asia. Europeans, who were shooting at each other 100 years ago, are now all (almost) brothers.

So it's no surprise that our religions are moving toward a common center. Rastafarianism was founded in the 20th century, perhaps its the new model of a modern religion. Or maybe it's the Sufi people, they're also gaining a lot of ground outside their homeland.

Yeah, Buddhism too. Whether or not you call it a "religion," it's part of this giant Melting Pot.
I can't totally trust anyone...well, I expect them to betray me even when I do trust them.
That's sad. For two reasons. Number One, obviously, because not trusting people makes it very difficult to get close to them. Our species is simply not programmed to be loners. So on top of all the other things I've identified in various threads on this forum as the dues we pay for giving up our Paleolithic lifestyle and building cities, you're also having to adapt to an unnatural social arrangement that goes against your instincts.

And Number Two: If you don't trust anybody else, that means you're putting all your trust in yourself. The problem with this is that every single one of us is (I promise) going to let himself down once in a while. When that happens, if you've got other people you can count on, you'll just do some hoomphing and promise to do better next time, and you'll get over. But if you are your own ONLY resource? The ONLY person you trust, and that person let you down? And you've got nobody else to go to for help and solace?

How do you recover from something like that???
If I was able to really figure out I'm an illusion and get that realization to stay stuck, I wouldn't care what people did to me anymore, would I?
Maybe it will be easier to convince yourself that you're an illusion if you don't trust anybody else. When they keep telling you, "No dude, you're not an illusion. I can see you too," you simply won't believe them!
 
If you don't trust anybody else, that means you're putting all your trust in yourself.
No. I don't trust myself either. I keep isolated in part because I fear harming others, I have no faith in my ability to manage things, I don't try for success either because it involves possibly failing, and I hate myself when I fail, which is one of the few things I do very well.
I was told: not to do anything unless I was going to do it right, that I was a stupid, clumsy brat, that I was never going to amount to much anyway.
 
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No. I don't trust myself either. I keep isolated in part because I fear harming others, I have no faith in my ability to manage things, I don't try for success either because it involves possibly failing, and I hate myself when I fail, which is one of the few things I do very well..
You need to lighten up!
 
It does make me look twice. I've always wanted to meet an enlightened person to feel them out. It'd be interesting to see how they act, speak, and so forth. The thing about Buddhism is after some time you don't even want to be enlightened anymore. The desire for enlightenment seems like such a silly thing now, but it's what grabs most folk's initial attention.

I had a similar feeling. I felt that once I became even slightly enlightened, and knew what it was to be so, I began to understand how far one could take it and how much work I have to do. I think it is a long and continuing process, with out end. Even the Dali Lama said he is still learning and growing every day. It seems like I could take a million life times to do it right. So much work. lol :eek:
 
No. I don't trust myself either. I keep isolated in part because I fear harming others, I have no faith in my ability to manage things, I don't try for success either because it involves possibly failing, and I hate myself when I fail, which is one of the few things I do very well.
I was told: not to do anything unless I was going to do it right, that I was a stupid, clumsy brat, that I was never going to amount to much anyway.
. . . and worst of all, god forbid you should succeed at something! :D

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It feels like dying, actually. Terrifying, the idea of giving up myself.
On the other hand, I find living terrifying and mostly painful a lot of the time.
So, if I'm going to be terrified and miserable anyway, why not be terrified and miserable in a brand new way?

As small children we look to parents to define us, and are very susceptible to whatever they say because we are literally biologically set up to have that information learned hard and fast. A child can learn two languages easily, an adult loses that neuroplasticity, for instance.
So if your parents programmed you well enough to hate yourself as a small child, then you get to deal with self-hatred like one would deal with kudzu in the deep south. It'll always come back, no matter what, so you just have to keep whacking it down and pulling it up.

Yes, I wasn't making light. I know the deep pain and scars caused by frilled- up parenting. It's like a Scorpius chip, their programming is in your head and won't go away, for a time, maybe, but not forever.
Having worked with foster kids, the damage a parent(s) or caregiver(s) or whomever, can do in a short life can be extensive. But you realize the problem so you are ahead of many. Quit looking at yourself thru their eyes and believing everyone else looks at you that way too. Not easy, I know.
 
I didn't say that. It's possible to learn the skills necessary to spot a con artist, at least well enough to catch most of them. The problem is that you end up learning things about humans and human nature that you didn't really want to know. For some people this can shatter their faith in humanity and make them hopeless cynics.

Well, isn't truth, no matter how ugly, always infinitely better than illusion, no matter how rosy?
 
Let me get this straight:

You are not a Buddhist, I (by my own admission) am.

You - a non - Buddhist find my Buddhist practice illegitimate. You hold me up to a standard that you do not acknowledge. Is this logical?

You claim to speak for other members of this forum....with their consent? I am a Buddhist - remember? Do you really think I give a rats ass what any group of anonymous handles on an Internet site thinks of me? Seriously?

Your control issue is most impressive indeed, as is your belief in your own importance.

Son, you have a serious problem with knowing where "you" end and "I" begin. Your lack of personal congruence is going to give you some very serious real - world problems if you cannot reign it in. Your lack of understanding of interpersonal boundaries threatens your personal well - being. Your anger will destroy you if you allow it to as well, and that anger is very obvious here. :shrug: Why?

Why does my Buddhist practice threaten you so very much? If you can answer that question - if only silently to yourself - you will experience satori for yourself rather than reading about it in the library.

No charge...this time. ;)
 
As far as "is Buddhism compatible with (other) religions?"

Stoniphi's description of a Buddhist in Post #79 (it wouldn't copy) are excellent goals for anyone, theist or atheist. The problem for theists is "Who do I depend on to reach these goals?" Myself or a god? If I may depend on my god for help then this part of Buddhism may indeed be doable for a thiest, but other aspects of Buddhism as a whole may still not be compatible for some. I depends on my personal thiesm
BB
 
Let me get this straight:

You are not a Buddhist, I (by my own admission) am.

You - a non - Buddhist find my Buddhist practice illegitimate. You hold me up to a standard that you do not acknowledge. Is this logical?

You claim to speak for other members of this forum....with their consent?
I don't know if Signal used the word legitimate or not. I can't say I want to label your Buddhist practice. But when you described what you would consider a formal Zen version of koan practice I did question this - so my reactions was out for all to see - since it did not resemble the formal koan practices I have engaged in or have ever heard about, except in non-Buddhist academic or informal settings.

I was also struck by you describing the experience of enlightenment in response to a question. This would also not really fit with any formal Buddhist environment I have ever been in. I am not saying your description is incorrect, but the implicit authority in deciding to answer and in such a context struck me as fully outside Buddhist norms and often part of communication explicitly warned against.

To me the issue is not 'Is Stoniphi really a Buddhist or following the tenets of Buddhism in his practice?', but rather is what you are presenting as Buddhism, Buddhism? The later issue is on topic, since we are trying to decide if Buddhism is a religion. From your posts here and in the koan thread, I am not sure if what you are putting forward is Buddhism.

This issue and the ad hom run very close together, but I would prefer to stay focused on Buddhism.

I am also not sure how you know Signal is not a Buddhist.
Why does my Buddhist practice threaten you so very much? If you can answer that question - if only silently to yourself - you will experience satori for yourself rather than reading about it in the library.
I also find this use of satori to be odd. Satori is generally more than some kind of personal insight - which is all that Signal might find if you are correct that she is threatened by your practices and then realizes what is really going on.
I don't think for example that most insights in psychotherapy are what would be classed as satori in Zen Buddhism.
 
I am also not sure how you know Signal is not a Buddhist.

He/she flat out stated that directly in an earlier post.

is what you are presenting as Buddhism, Buddhism?

It is as far as I am concerned, and to me that is all that matters. It works as advertized and has proven effective in my life for what I need it to do for me. You may also choose to judge me if you wish, but that would not be very Buddhist - OR Christian, would it? "Judge not lest ye be judged."

...but the implicit authority in deciding to answer and in such a context struck me as fully outside Buddhist norms and often part of communication explicitly warned against...

I am an elder, I am educated, I have been a practitioner for 43 years, I have been a teacher in many fields and I have a lot of real world experience. When someone asks me a question I decide whether or not to answer them. If I answer, it is open and honest. If I don't know I say so. That is sufficient authority for me and quite in line with what I have been taught as well. It would be an insult to the memory of my instructors to do otherwise.

Tradition dictates that a Buddhist instructor occasionally strike his student while yelling "that!". I live in the USA. If I did that I could be arrested, thrown in jail and sued. What was appropriate a thousand years ago in Japan is now illegal, and I would be a fool to try and act that way here and now. Remember - "Be here, now."

One of the great strengths of Buddhism is its flexibility and its ability to accommodate changing times and conditions.

...I don't know if Signal used the word legitimate or not...

I do, and he/she did, thus my response.

...Satori is generally more than some kind of personal insight - which is all that Signal might find if you are correct..

Within the context of my knowledge and experience, you error in limiting Sig's capacity for experiencing satori by careful consideration of my words here. While satori is indeed 'some kind of personal insight' it is vastly more than that. It is a breakthrough, a deep and meaningful change from within the person that improves them permanently. If Sig can find what is it about me that so frightens/threatens him/her, then the possibility exists that he/she can experience a major insight into their motivations and their interactions with other people. This has the potential to permanently change his/her dealing with others to the benefit of all parties. :)

Your view of satori seems naive and academic to me. Satori is not some pie-in-the-sky out-of-reach divine insight, it is well within the reach of any and all practitioners. Heck - you don't even have to be Buddhist to become enlightened, you just have to try hard enough and long enough.

Been there, done that. ;)
 
He/she flat out stated that directly in an earlier post.
Oh, OK. I gotten the impression elsewhere this was someone with quite a bit of experience of Buddhism, but a clear disidentification is just that.

It is as far as I am concerned, and to me that is all that matters. It works as advertized and has proven effective in my life for what I need it to do for me. You may also choose to judge me if you wish, but that would not be very Buddhist - OR Christian, would it? "Judge not lest ye be judged."
So, your responses to Signal have or have not been Buddhist or Christian?

Within the context of my knowledge and experience, you error in limiting Sig's capacity for experiencing satori by careful consideration of my words here. While satori is indeed 'some kind of personal insight' it is vastly more than that.
Yes, this was my point, precisely.
I am not limiting Signal's potential, I am reacting to you telling her that she 'will experience Sartori' if she does what you say.

Your view of satori seems naive and academic to me.
Well, that's strange, I would have described it very much like you did in that context and your description of what it is does not fit for me with what Signal will experience if....etc. Might sure, will, however, seems to include to many much less trivial events in Sartori. It also puts you in the role of the master....

Signal, go contemplate why you are threatened by my practices and if you get the answer you will experience Sartori.


Why does my Buddhist practice threaten you so very much? If you can answer that question - if only silently to yourself - you will experience satori for yourself rather than reading about it in the library.
 
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He/she flat out stated that directly in an earlier post.



It is as far as I am concerned, and to me that is all that matters. It works as advertized and has proven effective in my life for what I need it to do for me. You may also choose to judge me if you wish, but that would not be very Buddhist - OR Christian, would it? "Judge not lest ye be judged."



I am an elder, I am educated, I have been a practitioner for 43 years, I have been a teacher in many fields and I have a lot of real world experience. When someone asks me a question I decide whether or not to answer them. If I answer, it is open and honest. If I don't know I say so. That is sufficient authority for me and quite in line with what I have been taught as well. It would be an insult to the memory of my instructors to do otherwise.

Tradition dictates that a Buddhist instructor occasionally strike his student while yelling "that!". I live in the USA. If I did that I could be arrested, thrown in jail and sued. What was appropriate a thousand years ago in Japan is now illegal, and I would be a fool to try and act that way here and now. Remember - "Be here, now."

One of the great strengths of Buddhism is its flexibility and its ability to accommodate changing times and conditions.



I do, and he/she did, thus my response.



Within the context of my knowledge and experience, you error in limiting Sig's capacity for experiencing satori by careful consideration of my words here. While satori is indeed 'some kind of personal insight' it is vastly more than that. It is a breakthrough, a deep and meaningful change from within the person that improves them permanently. If Sig can find what is it about me that so frightens/threatens him/her, then the possibility exists that he/she can experience a major insight into their motivations and their interactions with other people. This has the potential to permanently change his/her dealing with others to the benefit of all parties. :)

Your view of satori seems naive and academic to me. Satori is not some pie-in-the-sky out-of-reach divine insight, it is well within the reach of any and all practitioners. Heck - you don't even have to be Buddhist to become enlightened, you just have to try hard enough and long enough.

Been there, done that. ;)

I bolded the words above, BlueBaby

Judging another is definitely part of Christianity and their scriptures. It is often only non-Christians who tend to throw that out of context verse around. Another interpretation: If I judge others I know the measure by which to judge and so I must be prepared to judge myself by the same measure because my god will.

I am interested in your comment that judging others is not very Buddhist? Could you explain. I’ve always wondered how not to judge others.

Do Buddhists refuse jury duty?
Do they never have to hire a babysitter for their kids?
Choose a partner?
Walk by a homeless person asking for money with booze on his breath?
Confide in anyone?
Hire or fire an employee?
Was judgment of another Buddhist the reason you became one? Their person or writings or values or lifestyle?

There are so many daily examples I could never list them all.

I have tried not to judge but I can’t get through my day without judging people. How do Buddhists do it? What is their take on judging others?
BB
 
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Question : can a Christian or Muslim be a follower of Buddha and continue practicing its faith ?

It would be difficult. The problems would mostly come from the Christian and Muslim ends, though. Islam particularly, would probably take a pretty dim view of that.

Buddhism hasn't traditionally denied the existence of gods. Gods are portrayed as participants in some of the canonical Buddhist writings. They are said to have gathered to honor the Buddha's birth and death, for example. (Historians of Indian religion take great interest in which gods are mentioned in the early Buddhist writings, what their attributes are and so on.)

But Buddhism doesn't have a mono-theistic-style creator god. The universe is imagined as effectively being of endless duration, without any beginning or end. There isn't any lawcourt-style postmortem judgement. Rewards and punishments are attributed to karma, to causality essentially. Morality is an integral part of the law of nature for traditional Buddhism.

In other words, while gods may exist, they are basically something like space-aliens, creatures as we are, just more powerful and exalted. Buddhists don't assume that human beings are the pinnacle of creaturely reality. But the Buddhists' gods are mortal, if extremely long-lived, and they are still subject to the law of karma. They can eventually die and even effectively fall out of heaven into an earthly or even a hellish rebirth.

(Given that each of us is the result of an endless series of rebirths already, everyone probably has gods somewhere in that history.)

In Buddhism, gods don't really have very much religious significance. They are still in need of enlightenment themselves. That's why they are portrayed as recognizing the importance of the Buddha's birth.

So Buddhism has never had any big problem in incorporating other religions' deities into its scheme. (More gods with new names, so what?) Probably none of the gods found in Buddhist writings originated historically as Buddhist deities. They are just the deities that were already popular among the general population at the places and times when the writings were written.

But religions that imagine their god as being the one true god, ultimate being, creator of the entire universe, postmortem judge, the final goal of man's religious quest and of all of history, probably will have quite a bit of difficulty accepting the Buddhists' devaluation of their deity. They certainly will have problems accepting the idea that true salvation has nothing to do with their god and that their god stands in need of Buddhist enlightenment just like we do.

Having said that, we do see things like "Christian Zen" here in California. (Perhaps more so in the 60's and 70's than today.) This tendency adopts the outward aesthetic style of Zen (perhaps hybridized with Western contemplative traditions), but interprets Buddhism as a psychology, a this-worldly meditation practice conducive to peace and equanimity, while still retaining the idea that true religious salvation comes through Christ alone. Buddhist enlightenment is no longer imagined to be the religious summum bonum. In this case it's Buddhism that appears to be the faith that's been devalued. But Buddhism never seemed to have any problem with the Christian Zen people.

We also see some Jews who adopt some Buddhism without giving up their self-identity as Jews. Many of these are non-religious Jews for whom Judaism is no longer their religion, just an ethnic identity. Others seem to treat matters like Christian Zen does, meditating while still believing in the Jewish god.

But I've never heard of any Islamic-Buddhist hybrids. They may exist, but I'd guess that it would be awfully close to idolatry in Muslim eyes. The community's reaction against it might conceivably be violent. I'd speculate that Muslims who might be attracted to Buddhism are more likely to opt for Sufism instead.
 
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***There is no copyright or warning not to reprint in this book***

This book was bought in a monastery in Chieng Mai,Thailand: Buddha-Nigama, by a relative of mine about 2000.

Handbook for Mankind by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. Originally presented as a series of lectures...

The VenerableBuddhadasa is well known for the readiness with which he gives nonliteral interpretation to the Buddhist text...

These kind of dharma texts usually don't have conventional copyrights. They can be reproduced, though it is typically requested that the text not be altered, that the author and original publisher be acknowledged, and that copies not be sold for commercial purposes. They are often distributed for free, though I guess that sometimes a donation might be requested in exchange, which amounts to paying for it, I guess.

The late Buddhadasa was a very influential Buddhist modernist in Thailand and was/is hugely respected there. He was somewhat controversial as well, since he gave unconventional interpretations to doctrines like rebirth and endeavored to make traditional Buddhist doctrine more consistent with modern scientific ideas. He was also kind of critical of the traditional mosastic establishments and tried to get Buddhists more involved in social improvement projects and stuff.

That's similar to Western Buddhist modernism in many ways, but it's significant that in Thailand it still emerged from a monastic context.
 
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