Is Athiesm The Answer?

[Alpha]

A subject I like to discuss is how much athiesm is logical or scientific (as its folowers claim it to be)??

Atheism doesn't have any 'followers'.

Personally, I only found them to claim that God's existance can't be proven

That's agnosticism.

...and when confronted with proof they change the subject

Funny, I find beleivers do that.

I think that athiesm takes faith, just like every other religion, because there is no absolute proof either way.

Atheism does NOT require faith and is NOT a religion.

Only a fool should believe there is no god.

You obviously have no respect for people with different opinions from yours. I'd respect someone who questioned my beliefs more than someone who agreed and accepted them without question.
Knowing what I know I could say only a fool would believe in God.

But it also takes faith to say there is no God since you have no proof.

Not so. There are proofs that certain definitions of God do not exist (such as the Christian version of God). Also, one can simply lack faith and not believe in God. Doesn't have to be taken on faith at all.
I'd also like to point out I agree with everything Katazia has said in this thread.

 

[SpyMoose]

Yes, Katazia has been rocking, though I doubt one can rock enough to convince a staunch theist that there are people who really are unwilling to believe in their fairy stories, and aren't equipped with another replacement fairy tail. It really is a different paradigm. Theists often note how sad and meaningless life must be without god, but I don't really seem to mind, the sun still signs the birds still sing and things still feel good. I rather think that theists are insecure and deeply want big daddy god to hold their hands, and don’t want to face a world where they can't imagine that that is true. Atheists don't have or manage to deal with that uncertainty in other ways.

 

[Enigma'07]

Atheism does NOT require faith and is NOT a religion.

Atheism has no proof, theistic religions have no proof, both require faith.

 

[Mystech]

Personally, I only found them to claim that God's existance can't be proven, and when confronted with proof they change the subject or ask questions which are basically self contradicted ( I ment the question itself ).

It doesn't need to be proven, because the burden of proof lies on the positive claimant. In other words if there is no evidence for something to exist, then it is the responsibility of the person making a claim that that something does exist to come forward with some, otherwise there just isn't any reason at all to believe that there's anything there. Think of that situation as it applies to leprechauns and unicorns; it applies to God in the same way.

It's a bit silly of you to have neglected this line of thinking as I'm sure that you yourself use it every day. Why, for instance, don't you believe in any other god but your one? Where are Zeus and Shiva?

And they only attack religion ( any religion ) by taking the verse out of its context to builed a false case!!

You mean in much the same way that you've made a broadly inclusive statement with no qualifying context or examples? You're not one to be criticizing the abilities of others to put together an argument.

They claim to follow ethical principals with no need to religion at the time religion is the source of ethics and it is only by it that you come to refuse something ethically or not, religion is built into the social thinking, weither you are a beleiver or not, you are affected by it.

Just because you yourself are helplessly reliant on your religion to tell you how to live your life doesn't mean that that is the case for everyone. You're right, however, there are few people living who are completely untouched by religion, and it some ways that's quite a shame.

My conclusion about athiesm is that it is only a way to give themselves a reason why they are (athiests) committed to nothing!!

Haha I'm not sure what exactly you mean to say here. Are you telling us that you're getting all upset over nothing?

 

[Katazia]

Enigma,

yes, you are right faith doen't prove anything, what's your point?

You missed the punchline, so I'll repeat it -

And that despite their continual protestations that all you need is faith.

Kat

 

[Katazia]

Enigma,

Atheism has no proof, theistic religions have no proof, both require faith.

No that is incorrect.

Atheism 101.

Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of a god or gods.

Disbelief in a proposition is not the same as believing it is false since one may simply not know whether it is true or not.

The typical atheist simply finds theist claims unbelievable since none are accompanied by evidence or proofs.

Atheism is not a belief system.

Hope that helps.
Kat

 

[Alpha]

It doesn't need to be proven, because the burden of proof lies on the positive claimant.

No, it lies on the 'claimant'. Whether that claim is positive or negative is irrelevant.

Atheism 101.

Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of a god or gods.

There are two versions of atheism, often denoted weak atheism and strong atheism. Weak atheism is when you doubt the existance of God. Strong atheism is when you positively believe God does not exist.
Also, agnosticism is where you believe neither can be proven, and the question is moot.

 

[Enigma'07]

Atheism is the belief of the absence the existence of a god or gods.

 

[Alpha]

Atheism is the belief of the absence the existence of a god or gods.

Is your definition supposed to be contrary to the one I just posted? If so, you're wrong. If not, it's just redundant.

 

[Q25]

A subject I like to discuss is how much athiesm is logical or scientific (as its folowers claim it to be)??

atheism has no followers.its not religion as some of you dumbasses like to claim!
atheist=without belief in god/gods

Personally, I only found them to claim that God's existance can't be proven, and when confronted with proof they change the subject or ask questions which are basically self contradicted

I dont think you know what contradiction means!
if you have any proof of God,we are all ears,first you have to define/describe what is God though.

And they only attack religion ( any religion ) by taking the verse out of its context to builed a false case!!

bullshit

They claim to follow ethical principals with no need to religion

me thinks that most people follow/obey the rules/laws of the country they live in.
no need for religions ethics.which sucks big time see below
btw,why is it that prisons are full of religious people?
religion doesnt make people honest/ethical anyway if they are psycho.

heres some qotes from your biblegod...from www.thewaronfaith.com
God On Peace And Love...

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
..........Numbers 31:17 (Moses)

After murdering a young girl's entire family before her eyes, you may kidnap her and add her to your concubines. Murder, kidnapping, and rape. The loving God.

" . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
..........I Samuel 6:19

Jesus loves you.

"The men of Judah captured another ten thousand (men) alive and took them to the top of the rock and threw them down from the top of the rock; and they were all dashed to pieces."
..........2 Chronicles 25:12

"Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"
..........Psalms 137:9

Jesus loves the little children.

"But God will shatter the heads of his enemies..."
..........Psalms 68:21

"Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."
..........Hosea 13:16

All members of the anti-abortion movement had references such as these deleted from their bibles by Randall Terry.

"Slay and utterly destroy after them, says the Lord, and do all that I have commanded you."
..........Jeremiah 50:21

Turn the other cheek.

"For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."
..........Exodus 20:5

"...Men'ahem sacked Tappuah and all who were in it and its territory from Tirzah on; because they did not open it to him, therefore he sacked it, and ripped up all the women in it who were with child."
..........2 Kings 15:16

God was into this abortion thing pretty heavy, apparently.

"(Elisha) went up from there to Bethal; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, 'Go up, you baldhead! Go up you baldhead!' And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys."
..........2 Kings 2:23

Spare the bear, spoil the child.

"..the Lord will smite with a scab the heads of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will lay bare their secret parts."
..........Isaiah 3:17

God likes naughty girls to be nekkid.

"Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger...Whoever is found will be thrust through and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes, their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished."
..........Isaiah 13:9, 13:15

"You have heard it said love they neighbor and hate thy enemy, but I say unto you love thy enemy and pray for those who persecute you." Jesus - What do you want to bet that Jesus and his daddy didn't get along all that well?


"Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you and sons shall eat their fathers...I will send famine and wild beasts against you and they shall rob you of your children; pestilence and blood shall pass through you; and I will bring a sword upon you. I, the Lord, have spoken."
..........Ezekiel 5:10, 5:17

"And I will fill your mountains with the slain; on your hills and in your valleys and in all your ravines those slain with the sword shall fall...Then you shall know that I am the Lord."
..........Ezekiel 35:8

"'Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women...'"
..........Ezekiel 9:5

But don't say "fuck" or "God damn" or else you're going to hell, you lousy, no good sinner.

And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
..........Jeremiah 13:14

How many times have you heard God called merciful?

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.
For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
Or a man that is broken-footed, or broken-handed,
Or crookbacked, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy.
Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them.
..........Leviticus 21:16-23

Christianity is just so inclusive.

My conclusion about athiesm is that it is only a way to give themselves a reason why they are (athiests) committed to nothing!!

most atheists are commited to making the world a better place for everyone,since this life is all you have, and sooner you realize this the sooner it will happen!

 

[Enigma'07]

How many times have you heard God called merciful?

Read Psalms

 

[Alpha]

Here here! Good post.

EDIT: That was intended for Q25's post.

 

[§outh§tar]

Q25,

If God didn't love, He wouldn't discipline.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

A subject I like to discuss is how much athiesm is logical or scientific (as its folowers claim it to be)??

Personally, I only found them to claim that God's existance can't be proven, and when confronted with proof they change the subject or ask questions which are basically self contradicted ( I ment the question itself ).

And they only attack religion ( any religion ) by taking the verse out of its context to builed a false case!!

They claim to follow ethical principals with no need to religion at the time religion is the source of ethics and it is only by it that you come to refuse something ethically or not, religion is built into the social thinking, weither you are a beleiver or not, you are affected by it.

My conclusion about athiesm is that it is only a way to give themselves a reason why they are (athiests) committed to nothing!!

But that's only my opinion!!

Yazdajerd,

Show me the proof Holmes and I wont change the subject.

-CC

 

[Jan Ardena]

spidergoat,

The evidence against God is circumstantial.

That is a matter of opinion and/or belief.

The idea of God was created...

How do you know?

...specifically so it could not be disproven.

So the person who created it, must know the real truth as there must be a reason why he/she went to so much trouble?

Do you think there could be a possibility that God was not created, and He actually exists as described in all authorititive scripture thereby giving intelligent beings the option of belief or dis-belief?

I could create an idea of something so insubstantial and indefinite too, and call it Bog. What is your proof that Bog does not exist? Bog was God's creator, and contained both good and evil. Does it take faith to say there is no Bog?

Okay! Do it. And try not using the any concepts which can be traced back to any religious scripture. Something totally original.

(Also, millions of religious people are atheists, they are called Buddhists.)

Don't they believe in reincarnation of the soul/essence?
Which atheist do you know that shares those beliefs?

Jan Ardena.

 

[Katazia]

Jan Ardena,

The idea of God was created...(by Man)

How do you know?

And who do propose as an alternative, the Apes perhaps?

Do you think there could be a possibility that God was not created, and He actually exists as described in all authorititive scripture thereby giving intelligent beings the option of belief or dis-belief?

There is no logical reason to conclude that such a possibility exists. Can you demonstrate how gods might be possible, that isn’t just imaginative fantasy?

I could create an idea of something so insubstantial and indefinite too, and call it Bog. What is your proof that Bog does not exist? Bog was God's creator, and contained both good and evil. Does it take faith to say there is no Bog?

Okay! Do it. And try not using the any concepts which can be traced back to any religious scripture. Something totally original.

Why make such a request for someone to waste their time on something so trivial? Are you so devoid of imagination that you cannot see the obviousness of this issue? If you have a problem here why don’t you make a proper effort to describe your objections?

I would certainly not see any incentive to spend valuable time developing an essay so that a destructive cynic like you could twist it out of recognition, as is your overwhlming style demonstrated in other debates here.

Kat

 

[Jan Ardena]

Katazia,

And who do propose as an alternative, the Apes perhaps?

The idea of God was created...

How do you know?

Answer the question.
Do not divert.

There is no logical reason to conclude that such a possibility exists.

You do not have the monopoly on logic or reason, nor do you know all things, so it would be illogical, irrational and unreasonable, not to mention arrogant, to conclude that such a possibility does not exist. The best you can do is believe, that based on the scientific evidence presented, SO FAR, you see no reason to believe that such a magnificent entity (God) exists.

Can you demonstrate how gods might be possible, that isn’t just imaginative fantasy?

To you....probably not.
Can you demonstrate how God might not be possible by way of the scientific method, that isn't just wishfull thinking or imaginative fantasy?

Why make such a request for someone to waste their time on something so trivial?

If it's so trivial, why do you waste your time posting?

Are you so devoid of imagination that you cannot see the obviousness of this issue?

Are you so devoid of human intelligence that you cannot see that this is a message board and if someone claims they can do something extraordinary, it is quite natural to exercise ones curiosity by asking them to perform said tasks?

If you have a problem here why don’t you make a proper effort to describe your objections?

It seems you are the one with problems. I am merely proposing an alternative scenario.

I would certainly not see any incentive to spend valuable time developing an essay so that a destructive cynic like you could twist it out of recognition, as is your overwhlming style demonstrated in other debates here.

Now you are feeling confident, perhaps you can explain to me how one can find evidence of trustworthiness.

Please answer.
That is all.

Jan Ardena.

 

[TheERK]

Atheism is the belief of the absence the existence of a god or gods.

Actually, you're wrong. A person who has never even heard about God is, by definition, an atheist. You can't believe in something you've never heard of.

 

[Katazia]

Jan Ardena,

And who do propose as an alternative, the Apes perhaps?
“ The idea of God was created...

How do you know? ”

Answer the question.
Do not divert.

There is no diversion since there is no choice other than humans. Your question is simply redundant, unless indeed you want to propose some type of animal.

“ There is no logical reason to conclude that such a possibility exists. ”

You do not have the monopoly on logic or reason, nor do you know all things, so it would be illogical, irrational and unreasonable, not to mention arrogant, to conclude that such a possibility does not exist.

It would appear you do not understand your own question and you seem unfamiliar with logical constructs and dependencies.

You are using the term ‘possibility’ in a very loose sense, but you expect a precise answer. The typical and simple example to demonstrate what is possible or not is to use something like a dice. A throw of a dice will give a single result out of 6 possible results. The 6 possibilities are known, and the probability of any one number occurring can be precisely calculated.

The problem with stating whether a god is possible or not is that we do not know of any conditions under which a god has a finite probability of occurring. The real world analogy to the dice is that the known possibilities all lie in the natural world. We know of no other scenario, e.g. a supernatural realm. In terms of the dice you would be suggesting that the number 7 is possible, when we only know of 6 possibilities.

The issue with making a logical conclusion is that all valid premises must be based on facts, i.e. known conditions. Since a god is beyond the known natural conditions then there is no known condition (i.e. no facts needed for logic) that would allow a god to be considered a possibility.

Hence my precise and concise statement, which I will repeat since you have not been able to refute it – There is no logical reason to conclude that such a possibility exists.

The idea of a god is more strictly just an imaginative speculation, you cannot declare god a possibility unless you can provide credible evidence.

Now you are feeling confident, perhaps you can explain to me how one can find evidence of trustworthiness.

This was from a very old thread and I am surprised you have not been able to figure this out for yourself since it is more than obvious and hardly requires any great intelligence. If you trust someone and they do not let you down then that is evidence that they can be trusted the next time. This is standard inductive reasoning. Why did you find this difficult?

Kat

 

[Neildo]

Actually, you're wrong. A person who has never even heard about God is, by definition, an atheist. You can't believe in something you've never heard of.

Yes, one can. One needn't first hear something to think it. All a person needs to do is realize the simple fact that everything has a creator and that's not a hard thought to come by. Everything comes from something. And in that case, all one needs to do is think higher and higher up the creation pyramid and a person will reach a conclusion of there being an almighty creator. Heck, that's the only reason why I believe there is a god -- whatever it may be -- and I use the term "god" loosely.

It's all a simple logical conclusion as illogical as it may sound to recognize something un-knowable or provable. And everything after that simple recognition such as religion is all philosophy because of that unknown. Heh, and because of that, it's why it's so laughable and absurd that religion sees philosophy as a threat. I guess those types of people must not own any mirrors.. *cough cough*.. pot.. *cough*.. kettle.. *cough cough*.. black.. *cough*..

Most atheists do not hold a belief but simple disbelief.

But I'm sure you know that you are only referring to the less common 'strong' version of atheism, right?

And thus propagating the outdated concept of atheism. That isn't mainstream atheism.

Believe me, I know there are various types of athiests and whatnot. However, having to clarify and add that into my post would have ruined the meaning of my post.

But there is no middle road - either you believe in a god or you don't. There are only theists and non-theists (atheists).

To me, I consider the middle road to be the simple recognition of an unknowable god and nothing else needed such as worship and definition. I consider strong athiesm and religion to be on each end of the extreme spectrum with the simple recognition of god as being in the middle. Therefore if one is a weak athiest, they're closer to the middle path and to me, that makes them more correct in their beliefs than the zealots on each end. And the reason why I consider religion to be an extreme and is different than the simple recognition of god is because they try and define that which they do not know. Both strong athiests and religion claim that their beliefs are fact and that's the absurdity in them.

So yeah, that's what I consider the middle road and just so you know, obviously I'm an agnostic.. [sarcasm] so course I'm in the middle as everything revolves around me. [/sarcasm]

- N