Is Akhenaton founder of monotheism?

Originally posted by Raha
Essene Copper Scroll? Essene War Scroll? There is no evidence that Dead Sea Scrolls were written by Essenes.
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Quite correct. Nor is there evidence to suggest (nor reason to believe) that "Jesus ... was somehow connected either to Zealot or Essene movement" and very good evidence that the two were not identical.
 
Well, CA, if you want to go into discussion about this, it will be my pleasure. But first of all, I would like to know your stance.

1. According to your opinion - was there any "historical" Jesus or is he purely mythical?
2. If historical, do you have some theory of your own who he was, where he came from and what he taught?
3. Are stories of Jesus ben Pandera of "teacher of righteousness" just irelevant bias or are they somehwhat connected to Jesus' myth?
 
These men, in the first place, live in villages, avoiding all cities on account of the habitual lawlessness of those who inhabit them, well knowing that such a moral disease is contracted from the associations with wicked men, just as a real disease might be from an impure atmosphere, and that this would stamp an incurable evil on their souls. Of these men, some cultivating the earth, and others devoting themselves to those arts which are the result of peace, benefit both themselves and all those who come into contact with them, not storing up treasures of silver and of gold, nor acquiring vast sections of the earth out of a desire for ample revenues, but providing all things which are requisite for the natural purpose of life; (77) for they alone of almost all men having been originally poor and destitute, and that too rather from their own habits and ways of life than from any real deficiency of good fortune, are nevertheless accounted very rich, judging contentment and frugality to be in great abundance, as in truth they are.
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Here's what Josephus says on the Essenes:

The Essenes like to teach that in all things one should rely on God. They also declare that souls are immortal . . . . They put their property in a common stock, and the rich man enjoys no more of his fortune than does the man with absolutely nothing. And there are more than 4000 men who behave in this way. In addition, they take no wives and acquire no slaves; in fact, they consider slavery an injustice.

and here:

These men are despisers of riches, and so very communicative as raises our admiration. Nor is there any one to be found among them who hath more than another; for it is a law among them, that those who come to them must let what they have be common to the whole order, - insomuch that among them all there is no appearance of poverty, or excess of riches, but every one's possessions are intermingled with every other's possessions; and so there is, as it were, one patrimony among all the brethren.

As you can see, Philo claims they didn't store up treasures, while Josephus states that they did accumulate some riches, since those who joined the community were required 'to put their property in a common stock". That statement also contradicts Philo's remark in regards to their original poverty.


(78) Among those men you will find no makers of arrows, or javelins, or swords, or helmets, or breastplates, or shields; no makers of arms or any employment whatever connected with war, or even to any of those occupations even in peace which are easily perverted to wicked purposes; for they are utterly ignorant of all traffic, and of all commercial dealings, and of all navigation, but they repudiate and keep aloof from everything which can possibly afford any inducement to covetousness: (79) and there is not a single slave among them, but they are all free, aiding one another with a reciprocal interchange of good offices; and they condemn masters, not only as unjust, inasmuch as they corrupt the very principles of equality, but likewise as impious, because they destroy the ordinances of nature, which generated them all equally, and brought them up like a mother, as if they were legitimate brethren, not in name only, but in reality and truth.
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And here's Josephus again:

They have no one certain city, but many of them dwell in every city; and if any of their sect come from other places, what they have lies open for them, just as if it were their own; and they go in to such as they never knew before, as if they had been ever so long acquainted with them. For which reason they carry nothing at all with them when they travel into remote parts, though still they take their weapons with them, for fear of thieves.

Again, Josephus seems to be contradicting Philo when he claims that they did indeed use weapons of some kind.


Apparently, there seems to be a lot of confusion and misconceptions surrounding the Essenes, and even more in regards to Jesus being one of the members.
But whether or nor the Essenes were identical with the Qumran community (and I realize that there's no consensus among the scholars on that matter), I very much doubt that there was a Jesus-Essene connection. To quote Josephus again:

The Sabbath was observed with the most rigorous exactitude, not even the calls of nature being answered

Now, compare this with Jesus' healing during Sabbath.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, The Essenes were a predominantly male ‘society’, abiding by strict Jewish rules, where women had lower status than men. Jesus’ attitude towards women in general seems to have been much more benign.
 
Originally posted by Raha
Well, CA, if you want to go into discussion about this, it will be my pleasure. But first of all, I would like to know your stance.

1. According to your opinion - was there any "historical" Jesus or is he purely mythical?
2. If historical, do you have some theory of your own who he was, where he came from and what he taught?
3. Are stories of Jesus ben Pandera of "teacher of righteousness" just irelevant bias or are they somehwhat connected to Jesus' myth?
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Firstly, I hope you realize that I was agreeing with you with regards to the DSS. That aside ...
  1. I'm an agnostic with respect to historicity.
  2. If forced to choose one side or the other, I would probably fall on the side of Jesus as Hasid (as per Geza Vermes) if only because cults tend to revolve around cult leaders, and I see no reason to view the Jerusalem church as some Pauline fabrication.
  3. I know of no stories which conflate references to Jesus ben Pantera with references to a teacher of righteousness. With regards the former, Jeffery Jay Lowder appropriately quotes Klausner: "The present Hebrew Tol'Doth Yeshu, even in its simplest form, is not earlier than the present Yosippon, i.e. it was not composed before the tenth century. Therefore it cannot possibly possess any historical value nor in any way be used as material for the life of Jesus." As for the latter, I assume that every messianic claimant was viewed by his following as a Teacher of Righteousness, but I know of absolutly nothing to link a Jesus cult with the Essenes. Perhaps I should read Ellegård. So, returning to your question, I view the ben Pantera reference as irrelevant, the Essene reference as unnecessarily speculative, and comments about some "Jesus ben Pandera of "teacher of righteousness"" potentially misleading.
 
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