Irrationality and illogicality - Psychic pheno

ok - brief recap as regards my involvement.

There is some consensus that whether a soul exists or not - it would be impossible to verify universally.

I suggested that rather than look for a soul - research should concentrate on the mechanisms that create soul: I suggested using: human and pre-human artifacts and ecofacts, the latest scientific research and technology - and subjective, experiential accounts.

I should say at this point that I believe the soul is created by the human in their lifetime and it continues as an anonymous and subconscious universal symbol within culture. The reason is a cognitive fovea similar to the eyes blindspot - we create the soul to fill the gap.

In pre-history the human mind was unable to perform rationally (as we would describe it today) our modern mind has become 'concrete' and rational. The primal unconscious still emerges in art, ritual, etc. and it is by examining the artifacts of the expression of this sunconscious 'irrationality' that one can find symbols that can be utilised to map the souls region from a cultural perspective.

These are my opinions - and obviously there have been objections (above).
 
So for almost all of history including today and most likely into the foreseeable future most of humanity held or holds to the "irrational" notion of a soul.

Similar when mentioning the act of praying and so on.
 
No - its not the idea of soul that's irrational but the language (or lack of it) that we use to describe the soul.
 
That would be cultural then - in the environment...as the body is deceased and cannot contain the individual consciousness.
 
If you read my posts then you would know that from the best available evidence I accept that the soul is created by humans in their own lifetime.
 
Perhaps its all these things - the rationalism of the 'concrete mind' is not capable of producing the oral and written language necessary to describe the soul in universally agreeable terms...yet.
 
The pre-concrete mind of our ancestors lacked what we would call rationalism but they were able to convey the language of the unconscious mind and this is evident in artifacts and ecofacts often of consistent form in geographically diverse regions.
My study suggests that there may be a genetic trait linked to the ability to communicate ideas from the unconscious mind as it benefits the community in understanding their own collective unconscious.
 
superluminal said:
What I don't get is this.
I totally understand the human desire to speculate and fantasize about what might be. It's huge fun. But why do people insist on taking what has no compelling evidence and treating it like it must be true?
Science (the method) is based on only one presupposition: You don't know squat until you get some evidence in the form of repeatable observations and quantifiable tests.
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I comment that gedanken or thought experiments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment

are a valid form of enquiry and several interesting thought experiments are posed in other threads. Whilst not based on the scientific method you suggest above, hypothesis can be drawn from them and then enacted materially - with some success in physics and areas where setting up experiments are impossible or difficult. The alternative would be nihilistic. They are a useful tool for generating ideas and disseminating information in a memorable form - perhaps more importantly they encourage self-learning.
 
jessiej920 said:
I believe in the possibility of a soul.
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I guess that's good enough for you.

jessie said:
Let me define what I think a soul is before this turns into another ugly argument I have had with other people.
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Don't worry. I'm not too interested in a long-winded argument. :)

jessie said:
I think a soul is partly made up of our humanity; the ability to love, hate, kill, protect that which we cherish. I think a soul is a complex variety of the energy our living bodies create, our consciousness and subconsciouness, and the most powerful emotions that drive us to sometimes do unspeakable things.
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Then I guess this is only a matter of semantics. That's another thing I don't want to go into. So again, don't worry. :p

jessie said:
I would think it arrogant to say the universe is entirely logical and concrete and that we know all the answers.
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Well we don't know all the answers, and we may never know all of them. So casting that detail aside, I don't think it's arrogant at all to say the universe is logical and concrete.

jessie said:
what do you think? Scientifically speaking, to believe in a soul seems illogical, but what about science aside? Do you ever feel...I don't know...that strangeness inside you that you can't explain?
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I don't believe I have.
 
Athelwulf said:
I guess that's good enough for you.



Don't worry. I'm not too interested in a long-winded argument. :)



Then I guess this is only a matter of semantics. That's another thing I don't want to go into. So again, don't worry. :p



Well we don't know all the answers, and we may never know all of them. So casting that detail aside, I don't think it's arrogant at all to say the universe is logical and concrete.



I don't believe I have.
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You are right, the universe is "logical" and concrete, but only when we, as humans, decide what is logical. As humans evolved we just came up with different logics to explain what we didn't understand at the time. 1,000 years ago it was perfectly logical to believe the God's would punish you if you didn't offer sacrifice. Logic has changed and evolved and is constantly doing so. 1,000 years in the future, what we see as logic now, very well will not be logical at all, there is always that chance. The universe is only as logical as we humans make it. I believe it is my fault that the whole soul topic got brought up again, I mentioned "soul" as an example in answering the original post. Ooops. :p No one can prove the existence of a soul, and while the soul, itself, is universal, the meaning is not. To someone who as always believed in a soul or felt a soul, it is absoloutly impossible to explain how or why to someone who hasn't.

Athelwolf, you mentioned in the Para. thread the feeling of deja vu. You said it was weird, a strange feeling. The idea that you might have dreamt or seen that time in place before. You questioned it, that weird feeling. Though, logically, you said you probably just had been there a couple times and that was the reason for the dej vu. Still, you said "it was weird". That's like a soul to me. The conscious awareness every once in a while that there is a strangeness in being conscious. That weirdness in the sense of self and of your own humanity that you question, and then logically explain away as what...being an animal, a human, a biological entity? Why are we conscious specifically of just ourselves and who we are? We do not know the consciouness of another person, nor will we ever. That makes us seperate, unique. In defining a soul, it is all just semantics, as you say, but when it's just you and that feeling...you do not need words or definitions. This might not make sense to you, as you have already said, you have never felt a soul. It's all just words anyway.

A soul is what you make it.
 
you have never felt a soul
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"...........you cannot feel your own soul as you are your own soul manifested through a medium called a body. It is only when you have lost it even temporarilly that your body can feel it gone. Thus one can feel or experience ones soul only in severe hardship through the lacking of it [absense]......."

~anon

so of course to those who have never had the pain of loosing it though mental, physical or emotional illness [ grief ] the soul remains a mystery and an irrational concept.

The lyrics to Bruce Springteen's song "Streets of Philadelphia...." come to mind:

I was bruised and battered and I couldn't tell
what I felt
I was unrecognizable to myself
Saw my reflection in a window I didn't know
my own face
Oh brother are you gonna leave me
wasting away
On the streets of Philadelphia

I walked the avenue till my legs felt like stone
I heard the voices of friends vanished and gone
At night I could hear the blood in my veins
Just as black and whispering as the rain
On the streets of Philadelphia

Ain't no angel gonna greet me
It's just you and I my friend
And my clothes don't fit me no more
I walked a thousand miles
just to slip this skin

The night has fallen, I'm lyin' awake
I can feel myself fading away
So receive me brother with your faithless kiss
or will we leave each other alone like this
On the streets of Philadelphia​
irrational yes but I am sure most persons can relate to it.
 
Syzygys said:
The truth is, most people can't handle the truth. Thus irrationality exists...
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And the truths that people who identify themselves as 'rationalists' can't handle:

1) truths that make rationalists fear they might have to lose control. For example if certain truths are dependent on a strong intuition and are not yet verifiable in double blind lab studies 'how can I know when my intuition is right or wrong' they worry. Fear of anarchy and control loss.

2) truths that are based on skills or percpetive abilities that are not the strong suits of 'rationalists'. Fears of inadequacy.
 
All fundamentalism (whether Christian or materialist) is rooted in the same fear: the fear of uncertainty.
 
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