Internalising religious morality

[S.A.M.]

warning: possible antisemitism ahead

With that out of the way, I'd like to touch upon something I have read today at mondoweiss.

Phil Weiss is my new guru in I-P, since Gideon Levy had become uninspirational post Gaza January 2009. As a bonus, I am learning much about Jewishness [not Judaism] from his personal journey as a minority voice of reason and also as an atheist Jew with a universal outlook.

One of the things he just said recently struck a chord with me:

That law is the reason I will feel guilty tomorrow for not being in synagogue all day. That law is the reason I felt a tiny tiny tremor of guilt last night for eating scallops (God said, only fish with fins and scales are to be eaten; nuts). It is the reason I have a leitmotif of anguish over the best thing I ever did, found my wife, a non-Jew (and yes I work that anguish on this site to a faretheewell). Because of Jewish law and governance, that’s why.

link

While my own upbringing was too laissez faire to be given to such internal disputes of conscience [to drink or not to drink, that is the question] I have often observed in other Muslims around me, an embarassed shamefacedness when they think their actions are against what they believe is the "law" for "good" Muslims and while they are, by their reasoning, "breaking it".

I have seen and heard, for example, Muslims embarassed to take a proferred glass of wine in company, even though they drink among friends, Muslims who pretend they are fasting when they are not, Muslims who pretend they pray five times a day when they don't. Muslims who keep religious artifacts in the house because the appearance of being Islamic is considered as relevant to their social identity. I have little patience with such hypocrisy and often say exactly what I think to them with the result that while they get pissed with me in the interim, in the long run, they are comfortable before me to say and do as they please but continue the charade with others [while avoiding me in such company].

This is not a pretense, per se, but a real feeling of extreme shame and embarassment at something so minute as drinking a glass of wine. You can see it in their faces when they don't want to deny they drink but feel extremely constrained and ashamed to take the glass offered.

I have also observed the same in Hindus who eat beef but will not admit to it even after I have quoted scriptures to them that make it clear eating beef is not prohibited and is a later addition to the "religion"

What would be the basis of such internalising of a morality you don't prescribe to?

 

[ejderha]

This is so common, Sam. Especially about drinking.

In my country, there are people everywhere drinking as they will. But if you ask them they are muslims. This is half being the tradition in the country, half the hypocrisy. Because mainly we have two groups. We call them bigots, they call us laics. Of course, there are extreme minorities. They mostly call me heretic, for example. Anyway, we don't like each other. Especially in the last decade, they got the government, and probably they are larger in numbers. But drinking is a social behaviour, so it depends what kind of an environment you were raised in. There are families that perfectly laic but don't have drinking habit, but also tolerant. Or families to claim to be muslim, but they, male/female they have a drinking habit. Lol, all this can happen only in my country, I suppose.

But it's open. Because we have a culture and industry to support that. There is a Turkish drinking culture. A special cuisine just to drink. Pubs and bars.
But when you go to the obscure country sides, there comes the great hypocrisy. They are bigots, but they are the most drinkers. There is a city in center of Anatolia. It's considered as one of the most religious, most bigotric -erm, new word?- also statistically has the greatest number of Rakı consumation. Which is the traditional drink.

And my community. It's the most minor minority. We are mostly atheist or agnostic. OK, there are some buddhists, I admit. Anyway, drinking is a part of our lives and culture. Something we are not aware of, comes with the genes and the heritage. For example, it might sound weird to you, but I have a difficulty in trusting nonedrinking people. Probably, I am prejudiced.

 

[S.A.M.]

but I have a difficulty in trusting nonedrinking people. Probably, I am prejudiced.

lol, no I see what you mean.

Do you associate drinking with being hypocritical in a Muslim?

I recall you said you have no faith; is this a personal decision or a circumstance of upbringing?

Do you suffer pangs of conscience from a religious morality you don't believe in?

Do you feel guilty about things you do which are considered unIslamic?

I am a shameless hussy as a rule and don't concern myself with moral self flagellations when they interfere with my principles.

I used to see it as hypocrisy and was impatient with it earlier, but having grown older, I recognise that some things are beyond our immediate control.

 

[ejderha]

Do you associate drinking with being hypocritical in a Muslim?

It's probable, but not necessarily. As I said it's a social behaviour. People should be able to sit down altogether and enjoy some spirits. No offense, but being solid sober all the time seems to be a position of a forced nature on human to me. Life is not something like that. And it's also not necessarily related with how religious a person is. I feel the same way about some people, who doesn't drink a drop because it's bad for their skin. Or hasn't eaten a speck of carbs since the late 80s, to look pencil thin. It's not natural, for me. It's like sterilising human life and killing most of the good bacteria.

I recall you said you have no faith; is this a personal decision or a circumstance of upbringing?

When you are raised in a religion free zone, you have a chance to chose for yourself. But I can't deny that - no one can deny I guess- your family effects you on your choices. There are examples of the opposite sort but they mostly occur under the extreme circumstances. The education I received, the books I read as child, the freedom I have been given and the way I was treated made me the person I am. I never felt like there was something missing from my life. Rather I felt like, other people are missing a lot. I had/have religious friends in every period of my life. It's kind of hard to avoid them, you know. When I was old enough to understand, I was told they were different. When I grew up, I had a chance to understand why you can't discuss with them. Well, this is my personal opinion of course. I am sure, some people still think religions are open to debate.

Do you suffer pangs of conscience from a religious morality you don't believe in?
Do you feel guilty about things you do which are considered unIslamic?

No, I don't. I am suffering of being aware of my tolerance is wearing out. I am more prejudiced to religious people than I was, say, 5 years ago. Strong prejudice is another window to bigotry. I don't want to be like that. But then, it's a natural thing I have to deal personally. I can not relate to them. What's more because of the multiple cultural polarisation in my country, now, I developed variable intolarences towards diverse kind of religious people and also to unreligious people, because of their reactions to them. They share a common bigotry and narrow mindness.

I am a shameless hussy as a rule and don't concern myself with moral self flagellations when they interfere with my principles. I used to see it as hypocrisy and was impatient with it earlier, but having grown older, I recognise that some things are beyond our immediate control.

Shameless hussy. Wohhooo! LOL. What's the scale in your country? I climbed up to the 'heretic whore' class for a time. It requires living with your boyfriend without 'the holy matrimony'. Can you beeeeliiieve it!? As mostly, they don't have the category of refusal of the 'marriage' by choice, who knows what class of a woman I fall into.
But I still have a long way to go accepting the world as it is, Sam. I am suffering from minor psychological problems, extreme empathy which turned into apathy then into sadness... *Whistles. uff it's hard to be me, iyyh. I depressed myself, lol.

 

[S.A.M.]

I climbed up to the 'heretic whore' class for a time. It requires living with your boyfriend without 'the holy matrimony'. Can you beeeeliiieve it!? As mostly, they don't have the category of refusal of the 'marriage' by choice, who knows what class of a woman I fall into.
But I still have way to go accepting the world as it is Sam. I am suffering from minor psychological problems, extreme empathy which turned into apathy then into sadness... *Whistles. uff it's hard to be me, iyyh. I depressed myself, lol.

I hear ya. I'm not very tolerant myself being impatient of anything I disagree with. I also have very rigid views since I take my time before I make up my mind about anything and then you'd be hard put to change my mind again unless you were very good about it. Thats probably why I am both stubborn and shameless lol.

I did not really have an opinion about un-religious people before I moved to the US, since I never knew any growing up, its rare to find non-religious people in India in the middle class [especially in the 70s and 80s when westernisation was only for the elite]. But barring a very few exceptions I find them more intolerant and superficial and lacking in empathy than most religious people I know [and I've lived in Saudi Arabia], so I guess we all have our prejudices

Thanks for sharing.

 

[ejderha]

But barring a very few exceptions I find them more intolerant and superficial and lacking in empathy than most religious people I know [and I've lived in Saudi Arabia], so I guess we all have our prejudices.

You're welcome.

This is so true. I think, it could have something to do with 'Westernisation' as it has so many complicated meanings. Most of the people living in villages, in my country are more open to people like me. They are religious people, but they would accept you as you are and tell your face what they think of it. They don't label or patronise you or praise. And also would be the first to run when you need any help.
Not much like the 'Westernised' people, living in the cities, with their sterilized, American movie imitated lives. Pretending to be a part of a none existant culture in a chaotic land. The educated and refined individuals. ** Little boxes on the hill side, little boxes made of tick tacky... nnmmm** uke:

 

[S.A.M.]

You're welcome.

This is so true. I think, it could have something to do with 'Westernisation' as it has so many complicated meanings. Most of the people living in villages, in my country are more open to people like me. They are religious people, but they would accept you as you are and tell your face what they think of it. They don't label or patronise you or praise. And also would be the first to run when you need any help.
Not much like the 'Westernised' people, living in the cities, with their sterilized, American movie imitated lives. Pretending to be a part of a none existant culture in a chaotic land. The educated and refined individuals. :rolleyes ** Little boxes on the hill side, little boxes made of tick tacky... nnmmm** uke:

Wow, yup, thats it. You're exactly right.

 

[Slysoon]

What would be the basis of such internalising of a morality you don't prescribe to?

It is a characteristic of rationalization, displayed most often by liberals. It is also hypocritical in nature; as Thomas Fuller once said, "He does not believe who does not live according to his belief." People tend to rationalize why their behaviours do not precisely reflect their internal conception of morality; Christians and Muslims are particularly notorious for this. The interesting thing about liberal Christians and Muslims - as with all liberals - is the tremendous gap between their external and internal processing systems. This gap is far greater for liberals than conservatives, indicating their hypocritical nature and susceptibility to propaganda.

I'm not very tolerant myself being impatient of anything I disagree with.

That is because you are a liberal.

 

[S.A.M.]

That is because you are a liberal.

Thats quite possible. I'm pushy enough to qualify.

In one of those strange coincidences, yet another one from Ha'aretz

One cold night in Jerusalem about two years ago, I fell into a deep sleep. After what seemed like just a few minutes, I woke up. Terrified. In the twilight between slumber and wakefulness, a hand was placed over my closed eyes in an unmistakable gesture. It happened in an instant, but that recollection of the specific gesture that accompanies the recitation of "Shema Yisrael" - of four fingers covering one eye and the thumb covering the other, like a roof - shook me up. After all, the last time I said the prayer before going to sleep was over 25 years ago.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1117338.html

I'm still reading it, its a great article on the persistence of religious conditioning

contd:

Okay this was a really fascinating article in many ways, it explores a wide spectrum of religious belief and secularism with all the shades of rainbow in between. The persistent theme is dealing with the aftershocks of changing beliefs that are inconsonant with personal values or rational thought processes

Some of the ranges explored:

1. A lack of spiritual connection to religious practices

I never really felt spiritually uplifted, not even during the period when I tried to daven devoutly, with the right bodily movements. My eyes stayed dry even when the cantor sang the mournful piyyut (liturgical poem) "Unetaneh Tokef," considered the spiritual high point of the Yom Kippur liturgy. I had a hard time with the fast and hated every second. In general, I was unable to decipher how God or observance of his commandments was significant for me.

2. A lingering association with old habits:

lso formerly religious, Goodman offered an anecdote of his own. Years ago, on a very cold and snowy day abroad, when he was wearing a wool hat on his head, he recalled feeling uncomfortable. "That was years after I had removed my skullcap," he says, "but for a moment I was sure it was there, in the way. The skullcap becomes part of your skin, and is there years after you have left [religious life]."

3. An emotional attachment to religious occasions

met with Philip, who has been "outside" for nine years, to discuss a heartrending scene in his documentary film "Let There Be Light" (2007), which recounts his personal story and that of his brother, who also left religious life. The scene takes place at a Purim party organized by Hillel, a nonprofit Israeli organization catering to those who leave the ultra-Orthodox community. Philip performed one of his melancholy hits from the past - "Rabbi Ishmael Said" - before an audience of people who were no longer Orthodox. Dressed in totally secular clothes, in some cases to an extreme because of Purim, they sang along with him, in tears.

More than nostalgia, it's a kind of return in a time machine to an identity you have shed, prompted perhaps by emotional stimuli, smells, sounds, a chance picture. The other identity pops up in dreams from the depths of your consciousness, even when you try to suffocate it. It took me time to acknowledge the existence in my new life of the shadow world of my childhood and adolescence

4. The struggle with the emptiness that follows leaving religious belief

"When you leave religion, first of all everything falls apart. Mainly the connection between belief in God on the one hand, and religion and ethics on the other. At first you become a nutcase. After all, there's nobody to punish you. Then you go to look for new ethics. During the first years you don't pray either. You try to understand your limits. But after a while you say to yourself: There's no God, f--- it, but I want to feel."

5. A desire for the best of both worlds

The formerly observant, he continues, are yet another group seeking a new era, and perhaps looking to strengthen the turn back to traditional Jewish literature, and to support the various secular batei midrash (study houses).

These people do not seem to look back in anger or pain, perhaps because they have not severed - and are not interested in severing - the fine threads that tie them to the religious community.

6. A feeling of being disconnected from the ones who never had any religion

"Religious people are people with whom it's easy for me to communicate," he admits. "Secular people are more heterogeneous. I have to learn to understand them."

That one was a surprise to me, I never thought that could be a possibility.

7. Sitting on the fence

He admits that for now, it is convenient for him to sit on the fence; he enjoys the dissonance created by his image as a secular person and his deep knowledge of Judaism. But he would not hesitate to take a religious woman as a partner and resume religious observance.

8. Being secular without being secular

"From your first moment in secular society, you understand that you're not part of them and never will be," Rubin declares. "You can adopt the jargon, dress or behavior codes, but it's not the real thing. Strangely, because I grew up in the center of the country, in Petah Tikva, I felt I was anonymous in Jerusalem. I had the freedom to do what I wanted, that there was room for everyone. Maybe because it's the Holy City, you don't have to be religious and can be whatever you feel like."

And finally a recognotion that it is indelibly a part of you, no matter what

"Even if you renounce it and decide to check other options - it's impossible to deny that a religious lifestyle is embedded in you and is part of what you are, part of your soul," Engelberg says.

This is an interesting look at one side of the spectrum, the non-religious one, I wonder what the other side of the spectrum would look like. And I don't doubt that this range of beliefs and non-beliefs is universal.

Thoughts?

 

[spidergoat]

What's the mystery? That's how religion controls people, through guilt.

 

[S.A.M.]

What guilt? The one they rationalise away when they do it anyway?

Whats the guilt for? Why don't I feel it?

 

[spidergoat]

What guilt? The one they rationalise away when they do it anyway?

It's fear that maybe God really wants you to follow these rules or you won't measure up.

Whats the guilt for? Why don't I feel it?

Because you're one of those degenerate freethinkers.

 

[S.A.M.]

And all these people who have left their religion [which I haven't] are what?

And all these people who haven't left their religion, do it anyway and care more about social opinion than God are what?

Why do they feel real shame and embarrassment when they don't believe in it enough to follow it?

 

[spidergoat]

Most people just go through the motions. They aren't really religious, just traditional.

 

[ejderha]

Most people just go through the motions. They aren't really religious, just traditional.

I agree with this. Seen examples countless of times.

 

[lightgigantic]

warning: possible antisemitism ahead

With that out of the way, I'd like to touch upon something I have read today at mondoweiss.

Phil Weiss is my new guru in I-P, since Gideon Levy had become uninspirational post Gaza January 2009. As a bonus, I am learning much about Jewishness [not Judaism] from his personal journey as a minority voice of reason and also as an atheist Jew with a universal outlook.

One of the things he just said recently struck a chord with me:



While my own upbringing was too laissez faire to be given to such internal disputes of conscience [to drink or not to drink, that is the question] I have often observed in other Muslims around me, an embarassed shamefacedness when they think their actions are against what they believe is the "law" for "good" Muslims and while they are, by their reasoning, "breaking it".

I have seen and heard, for example, Muslims embarassed to take a proferred glass of wine in company, even though they drink among friends, Muslims who pretend they are fasting when they are not, Muslims who pretend they pray five times a day when they don't. Muslims who keep religious artifacts in the house because the appearance of being Islamic is considered as relevant to their social identity. I have little patience with such hypocrisy and often say exactly what I think to them with the result that while they get pissed with me in the interim, in the long run, they are comfortable before me to say and do as they please but continue the charade with others [while avoiding me in such company].

This is not a pretense, per se, but a real feeling of extreme shame and embarassment at something so minute as drinking a glass of wine. You can see it in their faces when they don't want to deny they drink but feel extremely constrained and ashamed to take the glass offered.

I have also observed the same in Hindus who eat beef but will not admit to it even after I have quoted scriptures to them that make it clear eating beef is not prohibited and is a later addition to the "religion"

What would be the basis of such internalising of a morality you don't prescribe to?

religion has the greatest opportunity for many things, hypocrisy being one of them.

In short, the higher the values, the less likely people in general will be able to follow them.

Coupled with an innate sense of pride this causes problems.

So for instance, someone would rather try and pass off as a fallen brahmana than a moderate sudra.

I guess it runs parallel to any other trope that has the potential to carry social weight ...

 

[lightgigantic]

1. A lack of spiritual connection to religious practices



2. A lingering association with old habits:



3. An emotional attachment to religious occasions





4. The struggle with the emptiness that follows leaving religious belief




5. A desire for the best of both worlds



6. A feeling of being disconnected from the ones who never had any religion



That one was a surprise to me, I never thought that could be a possibility.

7. Sitting on the fence



8. Being secular without being secular





And finally a recognotion that it is indelibly a part of you, no matter what

Bhajana kriya is divided into two parts annistha(unsteady) and nistha (steady). When devotional activities are performed on the annistha platform, there is no fear of deviation or lethargy. Annistha (unsteady devotional service) is further divided into six gradations:

utsahamayi (sudden enthusiasm)
ghana-tarala (sometimes enthusiastic, sometimes lethargic)
vyudha- vikalpa (a stage when doubts assail one's resolve)
visaya-sangara (a stage of internal tug-of-war with material sense enjoyment)
niyamaksama (although one practises regularly, full justice is still not done to the process)

http://www.saragrahi.org/Header Links/Madhurya Kadambini/MK Stages 1,2,3.htm
taranga-rangini (attachment to wealth, adoration, distinction, and so on).

Its a break down of different levels of theistic practice.

Commentators have noted that bridging the gap between bhajana kriya and anatha nivrtti (ie the problems of utsahamayi, ghana tarala, etc) is only championed by developing the initial faith (sraddha) to begin in the first place.
http://www.saragrahi.org/Header Links/Madhurya Kadambini/Contents.htm


IOW its just another case of (again) going off the rails of application.
:shrug:

 

[S.A.M.]

Most people just go through the motions. They aren't really religious, just traditional.

Thats not a satisfacory response to me. If they are just going through the motions there is no need for the internal conflict. No need for that woman to wake up early in the morning with the feeling of fingers over her eyes, in acute visceral reaction of a prayer 25 years after she has discarded her faith in it.

Commentators have noted that bridging the gap between bhajana kriya and anatha nivrtti (ie the problems of utsahamayi, ghana tarala, etc) is only championed by developing the initial faith (sraddha) to begin in the first place.

Help me to deconstruct this.

What role does sincerity play in the conflict? How do you recognise real faith in yourself, or the lack of it?

How do you know if you are being honest or just fooling yourself?

 

[CheskiChips]

You don't understand for the same reason Kosher and Halal are unequivocal.
---
Practicing Jews don't eat Shellfish for the same reason most Americans don't eat Spiders.

Jews don't don't work on the Sabbath for the same reason most Americans abhor bestiality.

Jews dream of large families for the same reason Americans dream of wealth.

Jews value marrying other Jews the same reason educated Americans encourage their children to go to school.
---

Spidergoat doesn't have these feelings for the same reason you don't, he wasn't raised on these standards of living. Whether they're optimal standards is another discussion altogether.

 

[S.A.M.]

Huh? What are you talking about? Did you understand my question?

I am asking why those who DO NOT believe in a certain religious/moral restriction still have a visceral reaction to it.

i.e. if Phil is no longer a religious Jew and has become an atheist, why does he feel guilty for not going to synagogue on Yom Kippur?