Intelligent Design and Physical Law

[Norsefire]

Now, generally, Intelligent Design is both an explanation for the fine-tuning of our universe as well as for the rise of complex organisms.

For the purposes of this discussion, disregard the latter; I myself "believe" in evolution anyway, so please don't bring Creationism into this.

Therefore, what I mean by Intelligent Design is much broader; an intelligent design of our entire universe, and the fundamentals of how it operates (laws of physics).

So basically, what I am saying is, is it logical (I'm not asking if it's probable, but logical) to suppose that our universe was designed?

For me, the very existence of the laws of nature and physics suppose that our universe was designed; to elaborate, it seems to me like the universe operates much as does a machine, in terms of laws.

For instance, the existence of all of the forces (gravity, magnetism, etc) brings to question two things:

Firstly, and actually not very importantly, how did they come to be? This question, however, is not my main one nor is it my main supporting evidence for the logic of supposing that our universe was designed.

Secondly, but most importantly, is that the forces remain what they are and are universal. It's rather difficult to really explain what I mean, but in essence, what ensures that the forces act as they do, or why do they act as they do?

It would seem to me like design is necessary because of the order of our universe. How else can you explain the rigid order of our universe? It would seem to me that without design, or something specifying the way in which the universe had to operate, the universe should be random and things such as atoms and forces should not be able to exist, or at least, it should not be possible for them to remain

Let's say mathematics. Everything in our universe can be explained with mathematics.

And here is my main logic and basically the epitomy sentence of this argument, and you can sum my entire argument in the next sentence:

The existence of the ability of mathematics suggests a design

Please refute!

 

[temur]

To your first question: suppose that the forces are designed by some intelligent being. Then what laws was this being following? Did he/she follow a single law that made him/her freedomless (except the choice of that initial single law) in designing, or did he have much more freedom? If the designer was not free, then why do need a designer? Wouldn't it just complicate things unnecessarily?

To the second question, the forces are universal and persistent suggests that the universe is one thing (as opposed to a plain sum of independent parts). It does not suggest intelligence.

As for mathematics, the existence of the ability of mathematics suggests not a design, but it suggests again unity of the universe, and an exceptional ability of the human brain.

 

[John99]

I myself "believe" in evolution anyway, so please don't bring Creationism into this.

Therefore, what I mean by Intelligent Design is much broader; an intelligent design of our entire universe, and the fundamentals of how it operates (laws of physics).

So basically, what I am saying is, is it logical (I'm not asking if it's probable, but logical) to suppose that our universe was designed?

That may be a contradiction, then again a creation can evolve but evolution? Does it require creation? NO, a better question is can evolution create? And how far do you want to go? You will reach the point, if you believe in design, where you may have to acknowledge some form of creation. You only have to ask the question 'created by...?...by what...by whom?

 

[CheskiChips]

Now, generally, Intelligent Design is both an explanation for the fine-tuning of our universe as well as for the rise of complex organisms.

For the purposes of this discussion, disregard the latter; I myself "believe" in evolution anyway, so please don't bring Creationism into this.

Therefore, what I mean by Intelligent Design is much broader; an intelligent design of our entire universe, and the fundamentals of how it operates (laws of physics).

So basically, what I am saying is, is it logical (I'm not asking if it's probable, but logical) to suppose that our universe was designed?

For me, the very existence of the laws of nature and physics suppose that our universe was designed; to elaborate, it seems to me like the universe operates much as does a machine, in terms of laws.

For instance, the existence of all of the forces (gravity, magnetism, etc) brings to question two things:

Firstly, and actually not very importantly, how did they come to be? This question, however, is not my main one nor is it my main supporting evidence for the logic of supposing that our universe was designed.

Secondly, but most importantly, is that the forces remain what they are and are universal. It's rather difficult to really explain what I mean, but in essence, what ensures that the forces act as they do, or why do they act as they do?

It would seem to me like design is necessary because of the order of our universe. How else can you explain the rigid order of our universe? It would seem to me that without design, or something specifying the way in which the universe had to operate, the universe should be random and things such as atoms and forces should not be able to exist, or at least, it should not be possible for them to remain

Let's say mathematics. Everything in our universe can be explained with mathematics.

And here is my main logic and basically the epitomy sentence of this argument, and you can sum my entire argument in the next sentence:

The existence of the ability of mathematics suggests a design

Please refute!

Dogs are aware that if they stand by the door they will be let outside. Birds are aware if they build nests they more easily lay eggs. The understanding of a species is dependent on its own limitations (physical body or mentally). There's no difference in humans detecting patterns in our number system, what transcends beyond this? At the present time we don't know. I believe it's arrogant to say that humans are at the highest level of consciousness possible. If it happens to be a true statement, then I think that proves there is no creator. : (

 

[Enmos]

Norse, how did you go from being a muslim that doesn't believe in evolution, to essentially an atheist that does ? All in a few weeks time...
Agenda ?
Don't you think it's a sin to pretend to reject Allah ?
Or is it like the "render under Caesar" thing ?

My deepest apologies if I'm wrong, and for being off-topic here

 

[Vern]

Intelligent design doesn't solve any problem for me because the question immediately goes to; where did the designer come from. If it always existed, why not, as temur suggested, eliminate the added complexity and say the universe always existed

 

[Norsefire]

Dogs are aware that if they stand by the door they will be let outside. Birds are aware if they build nests they more easily lay eggs. The understanding of a species is dependent on its own limitations (physical body or mentally). There's no difference in humans detecting patterns in our number system, what transcends beyond this? At the present time we don't know. I believe it's arrogant to say that humans are at the highest level of consciousness possible. If it happens to be a true statement, then I think that proves there is no creator. : (

When did I make such a statement?

What I was saying is, the ability of thinking mathematically suggests an order, because mathematics operate on an already-existent order. Mathematics cannot exist, because it cannot be defined or used, if there is no "order"

Norse, how did you go from being a muslim that doesn't believe in evolution, to essentially an atheist that does ? All in a few weeks time...
Agenda ?
Don't you think it's a sin to pretend to reject Allah ?
Or is it like the "render under Caesar" thing ?

My deepest apologies if I'm wrong, and for being off-topic here

I've been agnostic for ages.

Sin? Many things I do are "sins". I support genetic engineering. That's a sin, isn't it?

Intelligent design doesn't solve any problem for me because the question immediately goes to; where did the designer come from. If it always existed, why not, as temur suggested, eliminate the added complexity and say the universe always existed

That isn't how science works. You don't find an answer because it's convenient, you find it because it is what it is.

 

[Enmos]

I've been agnostic for ages.

Sin? Many things I do are "sins". I support genetic engineering. That's a sin, isn't it?

I'm sorry then, never mind

 

[EndLightEnd]

Just another way for our feeble minds to grasp at reality.

 

[(Q)]

Now, generally, Intelligent Design is both an explanation for the fine-tuning of our universe as well as for the rise of complex organisms.

For the purposes of this discussion, disregard the latter; I myself "believe" in evolution anyway, so please don't bring Creationism into this.

Therefore, what I mean by Intelligent Design is much broader; an intelligent design of our entire universe, and the fundamentals of how it operates (laws of physics).

So basically, what I am saying is, is it logical (I'm not asking if it's probable, but logical) to suppose that our universe was designed?

For me, the very existence of the laws of nature and physics suppose that our universe was designed; to elaborate, it seems to me like the universe operates much as does a machine, in terms of laws.

For instance, the existence of all of the forces (gravity, magnetism, etc) brings to question two things:

Firstly, and actually not very importantly, how did they come to be? This question, however, is not my main one nor is it my main supporting evidence for the logic of supposing that our universe was designed.

Secondly, but most importantly, is that the forces remain what they are and are universal. It's rather difficult to really explain what I mean, but in essence, what ensures that the forces act as they do, or why do they act as they do?

It would seem to me like design is necessary because of the order of our universe. How else can you explain the rigid order of our universe? It would seem to me that without design, or something specifying the way in which the universe had to operate, the universe should be random and things such as atoms and forces should not be able to exist, or at least, it should not be possible for them to remain

Let's say mathematics. Everything in our universe can be explained with mathematics.

And here is my main logic and basically the epitomy sentence of this argument, and you can sum my entire argument in the next sentence:

The existence of the ability of mathematics suggests a design

Please refute!

This should be in religion.

Intelligent design is creationism. There is no basis for your argument, once again. Your obsession with this topic is getting annoying.

 

[Myles]

It should be in the cesspool. The same old suff over and over - hardly the sign of an original mind.

 

[phlogistician]

The existence of the ability of mathematics suggests a design

Please refute!

You are putting the cart before the horse.

Mathematics exists because it's a tool we created to help us look at the Universe.

It's a rather blunt tool, for instance, we have to use some rather abstract concepts to get our maths to describe things. (like 'i' the sqrt(-1), for instance)

So no, it's not a footprint of a creator. Sorry.

 

[BenTheMan]

norsefire:

there are many non-sequiturs in you OP. For example:

It would seem to me like design is necessary because of the order of our universe.

There is no reason to assume that order cannot exist without being created.

I agree that this thread shouldn't be in this forum. I don't know where to move it, though. It IS an honest question, so Cesspool is not an option.

I'm guessing religion?

 

[KALSTER]

What I was saying is, the ability of thinking mathematically suggests an order, because mathematics operate on an already-existent order. Mathematics cannot exist, because it cannot be defined or used, if there is no "order"

Exactly. Mathematics is just our way of interpreting and describing the order and to attempt to make predictions. Nature is not a thing of absolute order though. An element of true randominity is extant.

Firstly, and actually not very importantly, how did they come to be?

Anthropic principle.

 

[Norsefire]

This should be in religion.

Intelligent design is creationism. There is no basis for your argument, once again. Your obsession with this topic is getting annoying.

No, this shouldn't be in religion. It has nothing to do with religion.

You are putting the cart before the horse.

Mathematics exists because it's a tool we created to help us look at the Universe.

It's a rather blunt tool, for instance, we have to use some rather abstract concepts to get our maths to describe things. (like 'i' the sqrt(-1), for instance)

So no, it's not a footprint of a creator. Sorry.

It does, however, prove that there is order in the universe. How can order come about without something to specify it?

norsefire:

there are many non-sequiturs in you OP. For example:



There is no reason to assume that order cannot exist without being created.

I agree that this thread shouldn't be in this forum. I don't know where to move it, though. It IS an honest question, so Cesspool is not an option.

I'm guessing religion?

See above; also no this has nothing to do with religion.

Exactly. Mathematics is just our way of interpreting and describing the order and to attempt to make predictions. Nature is not a thing of absolute order though. An element of true randominity is extant.

So how does order come about randomly? That's ironic...order comes about randomly?

 

[Raithere]

It does, however, prove that there is order in the universe. How can order come about without something to specify it?
...
So how does order come about randomly? That's ironic...order comes about randomly?

All that is required for order are a few fundamental interactions (actually as few as one). Here is some interesting research on the topic:

http://unews.utah.edu/p/?r=071408-1

Also relevant would be chaos theory and path integral formulation. The universe is probabilistic and interactive, not discrete.

~Raithere

 

[BenTheMan]

No, this shouldn't be in religion. It has nothing to do with religion.

Well, it certainly isn't science.

There are questions science can answer, and those which it cannot.

This thread falls in the latter category, as opposed to the former.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

..
..
..
So basically, what I am saying is, is it logical (I'm not asking if it's probable, but logical) to suppose that our universe was designed?

Nope.

For me, the very existence of the laws of nature and physics suppose that our universe was designed; to elaborate, it seems to me like the universe operates much as does a machine, in terms of laws.

It does appear to operate like a machine, and as you can note from evolution... machines don't require sapient designers.

For instance, the existence of all of the forces (gravity, magnetism, etc) brings to question two things:

Firstly, and actually not very importantly, how did they come to be?

Don't know. In fact the question may not even be valid. Most models of reality that I have seen show that reality simply is (it has no notion of beginning or end even though our universe might).

Secondly, but most importantly, is that the forces remain what they are and are universal. It's rather difficult to really explain what I mean, but in essence, what ensures that the forces act as they do, or why do they act as they do?

Don't know nor do I know if the questions are even valid. I'll speculate that the forces don't require any kind of 'ensurance'. They simply are what they are.

It would seem to me like design is necessary because of the order of our universe. How else can you explain the rigid order of our universe? It would seem to me that without design, or something specifying the way in which the universe had to operate, the universe should be random and things such as atoms and forces should not be able to exist, or at least, it should not be possible for them to remain

Design isn't a requirement for order. As long as you think that it is, you'll have an anthropomorphic mental block preventing you from comprehending certain things.

Let's say mathematics. Everything in our universe can be explained with mathematics.

And here is my main logic and basically the epitomy sentence of this argument, and you can sum my entire argument in the next sentence:

The existence of the ability of mathematics suggests a design

Please refute!

The existence of mathmatics is evidence that mathematics exists.

 

[phlogistician]

It does, however, prove that there is order in the universe. How can order come about without something to specify it?

Without order, we would not exist. The question exists because we are here to ask it. In a Universe filled with Chaos, and no life, the Universe still exists, and but the question doesn't, therefore.

You aren't questioning how the Universe, or any Universe came into existence, just the parameters fo that Universe being suitable for life.

You are guilty of thinking the Universe exists a certain way to suit us I think. And for that to happen, it had to be designed around us. Well, that's not true. Iron, Carbon, and Oxygen are nice and stable elements, and quite abundant in the Earth's crust, and guess what life as we know it uses most often? But life also uses copper as a base for blood, life seems to manage to occur using whatever is around it. It's not design, but happenstance.

 

[Norsefire]

Nope.

Why?

It does appear to operate like a machine, and as you can note from evolution... machines don't require sapient designers.

Require? Sure, they don't require anything. But there's no point in finding answers based on "requirements"; we find answers based on what they are. Therefore it's still possible and logical to suppose a creator. It's illogical to assume one, but it's not a ridiculous or illogical concept that our universe was designed. We aren't supposed to bother with "require"





Don't know nor do I know if the questions are even valid. I'll speculate that the forces don't require any kind of 'ensurance'. They simply are what they are.

The existence of mathmatics is evidence that mathematics exists.

And that order exists.