Raithere - I'm not surprised if I missed the point, or if I will again. Bear with me, I'm trying.
First, I know I posted some material that wasn't directed at you, just stuff I thought people should know - I didn't want to take for granted any prior knowledge of Christianity. I'm a bit paranoid, you see.
Much of what you've said, I kinda "distilled" into the general idea that people, being imperfect and complex, misinterpret the *truth* in Christianity - because there is a definite, self-existant truth outside of our interpretations; any self-respecting Christian would pursue nothing less.
Anyways, tell me if you disagree and if you do, please be patient enough to reiterate, etc.
As for Paul, the Bible says that Jesus came to him in a vision and asked him why he was persecuting him - something to that effect. Maybe he was at odds with the disciples because he had a reputation for loving to kill/persecute Christians? I'll have to look into where the disciples/Paul's lives overlap, and *which* Paul they met. You might say he was on drugs, maybe he was crazy, or maybe God exists and there was something external and "real" behind his profound, lifelong change. Others have found that there is a way to "tell", I won't give up on that possibility.
To get back to what I see as the intrinsic failing here: Certain ethics are prescribed that have very strong logical arguments to support them but rather than giving any reasonable basis they are asserted purely through authority (i.e. God's Commandments, the authority of Jesus, etc.). Such argument is weak in the extreme.
Can you give me some examples of the ethics you refer to? Thanks.
And again this tradition lends itself to the tyranny of authority.
Here's one example of the type of thing I've "distilled" (see my first paragraph).
If the Bible is accessible and understandable then why the need for authoritative translation?
Not authoritative as you call it; but it helps to have an opinion from someone who's studied the scripture extensively (ie who's gone to a religious college) - call it an expert's opinion. It's not like they won't allow you to go to another church or look elsewhere for different interpretations/perspectives - unless they're not "for real."
quote:
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"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast" Ephesians 2:8-9.
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This sounds stupid, but I can't find where I said that although I vaguely remember it. Can you post the context in which I said that (I was very very tired when I was posting yesterday)?
Now personally, I believe that Jesus, or an individual who's life became wrapped up in the myth of Jesus, probably existed. I deduce this from the simple observation of human behavior that revolutionary movements always require an inspired leader. However, this lends nothing to the more fantastic stories attributed to him. These type of myths are also a part of human nature; our tendency to build a myth upon historical facts. One needs only to look to the figures and stories often told of the US revolutionary war and the founding of the US to find such myths (many of which are taught in grade school as if they were facts).
Well, my approach to the issue of "fantastic stories" is to see whether fundamentally Jesus makes sense; then I'd admit that those things may have happened - the miracles, Jesus calming the storms, etc. There are things out there I don't understand, and there may be a God beyond what I can see or beyond what science can prove (and this is where I am at odds with the majority on this forum
).
Here's a little story told to my sister, passed on to me a while ago: missionaries from my sister's church were off in some remote location somewhere - typical missionary stuff. They stayed at a remote, very isolated camp (surrounded by something like miles of wilderness) and depended on a single source (nature of which I forgot) for food, supplies, etc. One day, the missionaries came home extremely fatigued and the food wasn't there. Nor was it there the next day. Basically, the missionaries were worried, and with good reason. To the point: they prayed, and *right after they were finished*, a random guy pulled up in a truck chock full of McDonalds and told them something like: "I know you guys won't believe me, but God told me to come over here and buy McDonalds for you guys."
*** Wait a minute; being a skeptic I can easily imagine that the ppl in charge of food deliberately did this as a trick, perhaps to bolster the missionaries' faith. I'll have to ask my sister about that ***
What I was trying to get across was, there are many things which one would have a hard time explaining scientifically or otherwise, and the possibility of God/Jesus can't be ruled out.
Raithere - I think I kinda addressed your questions in there, somewhere. I tried... please understand if I utterly failed.
EDIT: Back with a 40 in my system... and a better anecdote (one that I actually experienced myself)
When I was 4, I was part of a city-run daycare which one day decided to hold a field trip to the local swimming pool. Long story short, I decided to go into the deep end and the lifeguards were too busy flirting or whatever to notice I was drowning until something like 10 minutes had gone by.
While I was in the ER, my grandma in Korea asked a pious Christian lady (with a reputation for being such) in her community to pray for me - after 45 minutes of straight prayer, the lady told my grandmother, with all confidence, that I was fine, and here I am, posting on this forum at 4 in the morning. *yawn*
There's plenty of such anecdotes - but I'm not trying to prove anything. If anything, I might just be tempting you ppl to pathologize me or something, I'm just trying to get across that you can't rule out the existence of God/supernatural stuff - unless you believe that lady was telepathic or something
drunk,
- Ed
