Indonesia and Islam, Jews and the Qur'an

[Michael]

Indonesia and Islam

I read this from an interview on the BBC about a political agenda called Progressive Islam.

I had a few run-ins with the hardline Islamists as I toured the country lecturing on Progressive Islam.

In Palembang, a young member of the hardline Hizb-ut Tahrir movement began his tirade with the cry "Allahu Akbar!" (God is Great).

As he went on to make his point his level of animosity increased accordingly:

"What do you mean when you talk about 'Progressive Islam'?" he barked at me.

"Islam is the only solution to everything, can't you see?

"Modern Progressives like you talk about democracy and human rights, but what we need here is an Islamic state under a Caliphate, that will unite all Muslims and give us the power to destroy our enemies, the Jews and the Americans!"

I pointed out to the young hotspur that his way of dividing the world into Muslims and non-Muslims was itself a modern mode of thinking, and that Islamist parties and organisations like his were already part of modernity.

But I don't want to give the impression that Indonesia is a country about to be overrun by angry young men driven to despair.

....

I was surprised when I read the part about destroying Jews and Americans. I thought to myself, why would an Indonesian care about Jews? They’re about as far removed from Judaism as one could get. But then there is the Qur’an and this entity called Islam (which I’m still rather vague on).

Why would this backwater no-body give to cents about Jews? Americans, yeah I can understand. Chinese control about 90% of the wealth in Indonesia so yeah, Chinese I can understand. Japanese have had their effects there. But Jews?

Why Jews?

The only connection I can think of is the Qur'an. It really must be the Qur’an has something in it that is easily interpreted to mean that Jews are evil people. Out to get non-Jews/Muslims.

In this respect, is the Qur’an antisemetic?

I used to think that the problems of the ME clearly laid at the foot of Middle Eastern culture. Which I still think. But the Qur'an is a product of ME culture. So I have to wonder if the problems of the ME aren't also linked intimately with the Qur'an. How easily is it to interpret the Qur'an to mean Jew = Evil?

The other day I was talking with a Muslim friend of mine. By his own admission he is quite progressive. And to tell you the truth I’m farley certain that like most religious folk, he hasn’t actually read the Good Book. He's a typical normal guy. But I founf it curious that as he was talking he said, I think all people should get along, even Jews.

“even Jews”?

:bugeye:

There’s something suspicious here.

So I was wondering, what does the Qur’an say about Jews that leads many Islamic people to hate them.?

 

[DoctorNO]

Quran 5:82

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

:bugeye:

 

[path]

Here are some passages from hadith I will not post further comment til one of our muslim posters comments on these ie trys to explain the context.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

From USCs islamic site which is a pretty good source for islamic documents they are very mainstream.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Indonesia and Islam

I was surprised when I read the part about destroying Jews and Americans. I thought to myself, why would an Indonesian care about Jews? They’re about as far removed from Judaism as one could get. But then there is the Qur’an and this entity called Islam (which I’m still rather vague on).

In theory Muslims are not supposed to be devided in small territorial entities. "The example of the Muslims is like that of one body, If one part of it is aches, the whole body experiences the pain" said the Prophet Muhammed -peace be upon him. This could be found in his statement about "Chaliphate", which is one nation/state/community under one political leadership and which lasted till 1924. Basically a Muslim should have the same rights in Morocco, Syria, Chechenia, Xing-Jian..

As to what Muslims have in common and that might be the reason for animosity, there is the indeed the Qur'an, but there is also the holy sites (mekka, Medina, Al-Quds;the dome of the rock, the wall of the Buraq and the AL-Aqsa mosque), the common history (the conquests under Omar.ibn.al.Khattab by early commanders, the war against the crusaders, the fertile crescent being the geographical center of Muslim lands, Palestine's loss went along with the dismanteling of the chaliphate by Attaturk who is seen as the jewish connection), and the simple solidarity effect between organs of the same body (remember "Jewish"dealings in Palestine).

Why would this backwater no-body give to cents about Jews? Americans, yeah I can understand. Chinese control about 90% of the wealth in Indonesia so yeah, Chinese I can understand. Japanese have had their effects there. But Jews?

Why Jews?

I hope I answered that sufficiently above. The Indonesian Muslim has as many reasons as the -geographically- closer Arab Muslim.

The only connection I can think of is the Qur'an. It really must be the Qur’an has something in it that is easily interpreted to mean that Jews are evil people. Out to get non-Jews/Muslims.

Obviously there are more reasons.

In this respect, is the Qur’an antisemetic?

First, Arabs are semitic. Second there have been many Jewish converts to Islam. If you mean antijewish then still the answer would be: NO!

I used to think that the problems of the ME clearly laid at the foot of Middle Eastern culture. Which I still think. But the Qur'an is a product of ME culture. So I have to wonder if the problems of the ME aren't also linked intimately with the Qur'an. How easily is it to interpret the Qur'an to mean Jew = Evil?

What problems are there in the middle-east in you opinion?

The other day I was talking with a Muslim friend of mine. By his own admission he is quite progressive. And to tell you the truth I’m farley certain that like most religious folk, he hasn’t actually read the Good Book. He's a typical normal guy. But I founf it curious that as he was talking he said, I think all people should get along, even Jews.

“even Jews”?

:bugeye:

Yes even Jews. There is a war going on between Jews and Arabs remember. (I realize I am using the terms Jews and Arabs rather crudely) So if an Arab or a Jew for that matter says even Jews or even Arabs the that is progress.

There’s something suspicious here.

So I was wondering, what does the Qur’an say about Jews that leads many Islamic people to hate them.?

Good question!

:m:

 

[path]

Palestine's loss went along with the dismanteling of the chaliphate by Attaturk who is seen as the jewish connection), and the simple solidarity effect between organs of the same body (remember "Jewish"dealings in Palestine).

Bruce can you please explain what this means?

Attaturk who is seen as the jewish connection

I am confused over what connection Attaturk had with the jews. Was the dismantling of the caliphate a jewish plot?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Here are some passages from hadith I will not post further comment til one of our muslim posters comments on these ie trys to explain the context.

The hadiths clearly state that the events would be at the end of times. Yet the Muslims are not commanded to fight them. The prophet -peace be upon him-, here doesn't command Muslims to hate or fight them. He is simply informing them of what will happen at a certain time. This didn't stop the Muslims from being good and harboring them.

http://jews-for-allah.com/

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/history-of-love/

:m:

 

[path]

The hadiths clearly state that the events would be at the end of times. Yet the Muslims are not commanded to fight them. The prophet -peace be upon him-, here doesn't command Muslims to hate or fight them. He is simply informing them of what will happen at a certain time. This didn't stop the Muslims from being good and harboring them.

:m:

Do you think that that glimpse into what muslims believe to be the future where they will be killing jews in a war could cause muslims to feel animosity towards jews? I mean they are going to be at war with them again according to hadith.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Bruce can you please explain what this means?

I guess that it easy to get to know the "Jewish" dealings in Palestine, so I guess you are inferring about mustapha kamal.

I am confused over what connection Attaturk had with the jews.

It is common knowledge or maybe a mainstream myth that he was raized by a Jewess. Furthermore I often hear of Turkish people I know that he was a free-mason. I guess this is widespread knowledge/rumors. Whether it is true or not, I don't scientifically know. Off course neither do I care.

Was the dismantling of the caliphate a jewish plot?

Well certainly the Caliphate was a rather big thing fish. And then you had the deterioration of the empire (economically, logistacally...etc) Also it the Ottoman empire was in continuous struggle with England, France, Russia, Persia (i guess) and with many of its subjects. Ample reasons for an Empire to fall.

The Zionists however did manifest themselves on this arena as they tried to buy Palestine.

But the dismanteling of the chaliphate itself came at the hands of mustapha kamal. Here the question remains was this fellow really Jewish raized with Jewish leanings. Who knows? I don't. And there is no point in crying: "Paranoia!" because considering the histpry of the times it could very well be true (or not).

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Do you think that that glimpse into what muslims believe to be the future where they will be killing jews in a war could cause muslims to feel animosity towards jews?

Obviously not!

I mean they are going to be at war with them again according to hadith.

That didn't stop Muslims from treating them fairly throughout history. I know of Abbasid rulers that trusted them with their banking (one in a sea of examples).

One more thing; when those hadiths took place. The Muslims were rather surprised as the Jews were no big deal.The were servants of other peoples, banished by God. So Muslims were rather surprised to know that those same Jews would be able to put up a fight agaisnt Muslims. It took faith to believe those hadiths.

:m:

 

[Michael]

First, Arabs are semitic. Second there have been many Jewish converts to Islam.

Oh I didn’t know that. What’s “Semitic”?

Yes, I agree Judaism is a religion not a race.

I personally don’t believe the word “race” has much meaning in today’s world.

What problems are there in the middle-east in you opinion?

Actually, I shouldn’t say “problems” per say.

What I was thinking of when I wrote “problems” was the lack of popular representation in ME governments, the fact that many people don’t enjoy (what I’d think of as) many basic human rights, the lack of job opportunity has been getting worse not better, many of the economies are based around oil which should start to run out around 10 years from now, religious intolerance is endemic in some countries (Israeli and Saudi Arabia come to mind), regression instead of progression (ie: in Afghanistan women were given the right to vote before women in the US were given the right to vote – as you well know, that’s not the culture there now), in Iran Mullahs preach about the evil Satan America while knowingly selling 60% of their oil there (via Russia) I’m sure this money lines their pockets – so again it goes to representation, then there’s the wars: Iran-Iraq, US-Iraq, Pakistan-India-Kashmir, Palestine-Israel, suppression of entire populations like the Kurds – speaking of which they seem to have missed out on having their own land, the notion that honor killings are honorable, extermination of others - Armenians come to mind, etcetera . . .

And frankly I think the freedom to think would be limited in a society where religion is expected to play a part in the ruling of a country, where I believe that in actuality the opposite is true and the best thing Thomas Jefferson did was to separate State and Religion.

But anyway, the people of the ME support their leaders and the leaders make the rules and so it’s not a “problem” per say – but I’m glad I wasn’t raised there.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Oh I didn’t know that. What’s “Semitic”?

Yes, I agree Judaism is a religion not a race.

I personally don’t believe the word “race” has much meaning in today’s world.

Actually, I shouldn’t say “problems” per say.

What I was thinking of when I wrote “problems” was the lack of popular representation in ME governments, the fact that many people don’t enjoy (what I’d think of as) many basic human rights, the lack of job opportunity has been getting worse not better, many of the economies are based around oil which should start to run out around 10 years from now, religious intolerance is endemic in some countries (Israeli and Saudi Arabia come to mind), regression instead of progression (ie: in Afghanistan women were given the right to vote before women in the US were given the right to vote – as you well know, that’s not the culture there now), in Iran Mullahs preach about the evil Satan America while knowingly selling 60% of their oil there (via Russia) I’m sure this money lines their pockets – so again it goes to representation, then there’s the wars: Iran-Iraq, US-Iraq, Pakistan-India-Kashmir, Palestine-Israel, suppression of entire populations like the Kurds – speaking of which they seem to have missed out on having their own land, the notion that honor killings are honorable, extermination of others - Armenians come to mind, etcetera . . .

And frankly I think the freedom to think would be limited in a society where religion is expected to play a part in the ruling of a country, where I believe that in actuality the opposite is true and the best thing Thomas Jefferson did was to separate State and Religion.

But anyway, the people of the ME support their leaders and the leaders make the rules and so it’s not a “problem” per say – but I’m glad I wasn’t raised there.

I just wanted to know what you saw as problem that's all. And you gave quite some. I agree with many you said. And something else; most leaders do not have the support of their populace.

:m:

 

[path]

I guess that it easy to get to know the "Jewish" dealings in Palestine, so I guess you are inferring about mustapha kamal.



It is common knowledge or maybe a mainstream myth that he was raized by a Jewess. Furthermore I often hear of Turkish people I know that he was a free-mason. I guess this is widespread knowledge/rumors. Whether it is true or not, I don't scientifically know. Off course neither do I care.



Well certainly the Caliphate was a rather big thing fish. And then you had the deterioration of the empire (economically, logistacally...etc) Also it the Ottoman empire was in continuous struggle with England, France, Russia, Persia (i guess) and with many of its subjects. Ample reasons for an Empire to fall.

The Zionists however did manifest themselves on this arena as they tried to buy Palestine.

But the dismanteling of the chaliphate itself came at the hands of mustapha kamal. Here the question remains was this fellow really Jewish raized with Jewish leanings. Who knows? I don't. And there is no point in crying: "Paranoia!" because considering the histpry of the times it could very well be true (or not).

:m:

Thanks for the response but it is rather confusing with the jews and or freemasons possibly being involved and possibly not

So correct me if I am wrong you are simply saying that jews or freemasons could have had a hand, in addition to others, in dismantling the caliphate. correct?

One more, if a westerner had an arab wet nurse is it logical to suspect that he is working for some greater arab agenda?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Thanks for the response but it is rather confusing with the jews and or freemasons possibly being involved and possibly not

So correct me if I am wrong you are simply saying that jews or freemasons could have had a hand, in addition to others, in dismantling the caliphate. correct?

The collapse of the empire and the Khilapha is understandable whithout the involvement of Jewish agents/actors. Now there are those that that assert the presence of those jewish agents/actors. This addition is possible but I personnally do not know whether it is true.

One more, if a westerner had an arab wet nurse is it logical to suspect that he is working for some greater arab agenda?

What if he then grows to be the man that makes the beard and the veil mandatory in the state he rules? Would it be plausible?

:m:

 

[path]

What if he then grows to be the man that makes the beard and the veil mandatory in the state he rules? Would it be plausible?

:m:

Did he convert Turkey to judaism or try and create a modern state along european lines?

 

[DoctorNO]

If you mean antijewish then still the answer would be: NO!

How do you explain the BANKET STATEMENT that mohammad made against the Jews in the Quran (like in 5:82) and the Hadiths (like that mentioned by Path)?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Did he convert Turkey to judaism or try and create a modern state along european lines?

What if your man doesn't convert Norway but tries and create a modern state along middle-eastern lines?

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

How do you explain the BANKET STATEMENT that mohammad made against the Jews in the Quran (like in 5:82) and the Hadiths (like that mentioned by Path)?

I can't see any words of Muhammad -peace be upon him- in 5:82, thus I do not know what you rare referring to.

As for the haddiths.. well what can I say..Prophecy if I ever seen one. Who would have though that those refugees would have been able to put up a fight against Muslims?

:m:

 

[path]

What if your man doesn't convert Norway but tries and create a modern state along middle-eastern lines?

:m:

Was there any jewish state in existance to even give a hint of what a jewish state would be like?

 

[path]

Here rather than engaging in speculation and indulging in conspiracy theory check some historical background here is a site for starters
The Ottoman empire

The empire was broken and as there was no successful islamic state to model a reform upon they looked to the west, quite simple and logical really.

I am actually reading "the decline and fall of the ottoman empire" now so we can perhaps delve deeper into this in the near future

 

[DoctorNO]

I can't see any words of Muhammad -peace be upon him- in 5:82, thus I do not know what you rare referring to.

Dont play blind with me. You know damn well what I mean.

• 
  Mohammed said in Quran 5:82
  
  Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews

When was it ever fair to make a BLANKET STATEMENT against an entire race? The Quran is indeed a racist book written by a bogus Prophet Mohammed.

As for the haddiths.. well what can I say..Prophecy if I ever seen one. Who would have though that those refugees would have been able to put up a fight against Muslims?

When was it ever fair to make a BLANKET STATEMENT against an entire race? The Hadith is indeed a racist collection attributed to the bogus Prophet Mohammed.