Immigration Ethics

i don't think ethics have any thing to do with it. Its the people think and how they use the ability to do so.So in that state it depends on the person
 
lixluke said:
Why do Americans hate illegal immigrants so much? What's up with that?
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Please don't paint all of us with the same brush. I love immigrants because I can practice foreign languages with them, and I like learning about their cultures. Because I spent most of my life in southern California working for government agencies, most of the people I accumulated as acquaintances were left-liberals and none of them hate immigrants, legal or illegal.

Most illegal immigrants come from Latin America, primarily Mexico. Most of the people who hate illegal immigrants don't really like any Latino immigrants very much. They can't get away saying that in public, so they focus their anger at the illegals.

The last large immigrant group is always the one people hate most. First it was the Irish, then the Chinese, then the Italians, now it's the Mexicans. Be patient, it will soon be Muslims. Last time I was in L.A., a Redneck looked around and said to me, "Ah guess it's about tahm we gonna have to accept Messicans as honorary what people."

Union workers, the good ol' boys who charge you three times what a job is worth and take three times as long as it should, they're the ones who truly hate illegal immigrants because they charge a fair wage for their labor. I'm sure I've posted this before, but a friend of mine wanted to finish his basement to use it as a recreation room. He called a licensed contractor who said it would take several weeks and cost him about $30K. So he rented a truck, went to Home Depot and picked up four guys standing at the "temporary worker collection site who had experience with drywall, bought the materials, which they loaded, took them home and put them to work. They finished the job in one day! He gave them $1000 and they wanted to give half of it back because they thought they were cheating him. They were going to walk home until he explained that he had to take the truck back anyway. (If you've seen this anecdote before I'm sure the numbers keep changing a little. Just take the average.)

At home in northwestern California, a rural area with no really high-paying jobs, we can't get teenagers to mow the lawn and do yard work for ten dollars an hour. That's more than some of their parents make for really hard work!

The other reason people don't like illegals is that because they're poor, they usually cram a dozen people into a house so it tends to look pretty bad. Cars parked everywhere and everybody's too busy working double shifts to take care of the yard.

People also claim that illegal immigrants are increasing the costs of our social service programs. But nobody cheats those organizations as badly as the civil "servants" who work there, with twelve people always doing the job of one--and not doing it very well.
 
WillNever said:
Some people are willing to pay for a virtual slave labor force, even if they provide inferior service. However, we do not need illegal immigrants here. People like to think they form some sort of a backbone to the country's economy, but that's really a bunch of horseshit. I used to live in Connecticut and that state had a small number of illegals running around. Back then, CT was the richest state in the country. Clearly, we got along just fine without the mexican hordes.
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They are cheaper and more competent with superior service. But shouldn't we just kick out the Americans, and let the illegal immigrants stay?

They don't form the backbone of the economy. And whether or not we "need" them is irrelevant. They are here, so anybody that doesn't like it can leave.
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
Please don't paint all of us with the same brush. I love immigrants because I can practice foreign languages with them, and I like learning about their cultures. Because I spent most of my life in southern California working for government agencies, most of the people I accumulated as acquaintances were left-liberals and none of them hate immigrants, legal or illegal.

Most illegal immigrants come from Latin America, primarily Mexico. Most of the people who hate illegal immigrants don't really like any Latino immigrants very much. They can't get away saying that in public, so they focus their anger at the illegals.

The last large immigrant group is always the one people hate most. First it was the Irish, then the Chinese, then the Italians, now it's the Mexicans. Be patient, it will soon be Muslims. Last time I was in L.A., a Redneck looked around and said to me, "Ah guess it's about tahm we gonna have to accept Messicans as honorary what people."

Union workers, the good ol' boys who charge you three times what a job is worth and take three times as long as it should, they're the ones who truly hate illegal immigrants because they charge a fair wage for their labor. I'm sure I've posted this before, but a friend of mine wanted to finish his basement to use it as a recreation room. He called a licensed contractor who said it would take several weeks and cost him about $30K. So he rented a truck, went to Home Depot and picked up four guys standing at the "temporary worker collection site who had experience with drywall, bought the materials, which they loaded, took them home and put them to work. They finished the job in one day! He gave them $1000 and they wanted to give half of it back because they thought they were cheating him. They were going to walk home until he explained that he had to take the truck back anyway. (If you've seen this anecdote before I'm sure the numbers keep changing a little. Just take the average.)

At home in northwestern California, a rural area with no really high-paying jobs, we can't get teenagers to mow the lawn and do yard work for ten dollars an hour. That's more than some of their parents make for really hard work!

The other reason people don't like illegals is that because they're poor, they usually cram a dozen people into a house so it tends to look pretty bad. Cars parked everywhere and everybody's too busy working double shifts to take care of the yard.

People also claim that illegal immigrants are increasing the costs of our social service programs. But nobody cheats those organizations as badly as the civil "servants" who work there, with twelve people always doing the job of one--and not doing it very well.
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How much exactly is a job worth? The problem is that people tend to measure things in dollars. The real question is about buying power. What is the minimum that a person should be able to afford after a 20 hour work week? Can a person afford to provide his family with a decent life, education, and health after making $1,000 working 20 hours?

The majority of the working class, and even moreso illegal immigrants get far far far less than what their labor is worth.

I think Americans hate illegal immigrants because of racism and some sort of warped delusion of entitlement.
 
lixluke said:
Do people actually believe that it is ethical for the USA to say to people entering this territory that they do not have the right to reside here?

1. Our ownership of this land is illegitimate. The Indians were here first. We stole this land by slaughtering not thousands, but millions of Indians.

2. If it is true that somebody has the right to tell people who can and cannot reside here, it is the Indians.

3. I persoally do not believe any nation of any land has the ethical right to tell a person they may not reside within their borders. If a government controls a territory, there is nothing unethical about requiring immigrants to go through a reasonable process for national citizenship status. However, it is completely unethical to tell somebody they may not reside here.

4. There is nothing about this in the Bill of Rights, but it should be included. Anybody entering the land of the USA has the right to a speedy citizenship process.


Q: What makes the USA believe that they have the ethical right to say who can and who cannot reside within these lands that they stole from Indians? Who gave the USA this right?
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The answer to the first question is yes. Unfortunately the Indians no longer control the land and they have no government.

Are you really sure it is fair to others to have unregulated immigration? What would you do with all the poor unskilled labor that cannot find work? How would that population affect those who live in the States? It would mean lowered wages. Basically you would have allowed so many people in the country that you would lower everyone's standard of living.

The US has the right to say who comes and who goes like every other nation on earth, nothing special there. Do you think you would have free reign in other nations? No. The history of american indians is irrelevant. They do not represent the US but a group of separate nations.

Rights are acquired, created or taken. No one need 'give' you the right you create the right.

Who gave blacks the right to vote? They created that right along with others who agreed on this freedom. Who gave Florida Cuban americans? They didn't ask for anything they just took it!
 
lixluke said:
What are you talking about impossible? It is not impossible to give the land back to who it belongs to. Who legitimitely does this land belong to? Does it belong to anybody? I have yet not seen any justification for USA claiming who does and does not have the right to reside within this territory.
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Okay, say you were god for the day and could give the land back to the American Indians. What would you do with the 250 million inhabitants of the land? Where would you send someone who has been here for generations and has invested in the land? What if the natives don't want to share the land? What would you do with the base population?

Remember that the base population wouldn't leave willingly and they wouldn't tolerate an influx of immigrants. Do you hate foreigners so much that you would prefer violence to a system of accepting immigrants as they are needed?
 
pjdude1219 said:
they fought over who could hunt where and stuff like that they did not for control of the land for control implies ownership which most natives don't belive that a person can do.
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Really? Then why did some of the natives actually attack settlers if they didn't believe in ownership?
 
Lucysnow said:
The answer to the first question is yes. Unfortunately the Indians no longer control the land and they have no government.

Are you really sure it is fair to others to have unregulated immigration? What would you do with all the poor unskilled labor that cannot find work? How would that population affect those who live in the States? It would mean lowered wages. Basically you would have allowed so many people in the country that you would lower everyone's standard of living.

The US has the right to say who comes and who goes like every other nation on earth, nothing special there. Do you think you would have free reign in other nations? No. The history of american indians is irrelevant. They do not represent the US but a group of separate nations.

Rights are acquired, created or taken. No one need 'give' you the right you create the right.

Who gave blacks the right to vote? They created that right along with others who agreed on this freedom. Who gave Florida Cuban americans? They didn't ask for anything they just took it!
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Lucysnow said:
Okay, say you were god for the day and could give the land back to the American Indians. What would you do with the 250 million inhabitants of the land? Where would you send someone who has been here for generations and has invested in the land? What if the natives don't want to share the land? What would you do with the base population?

Remember that the base population wouldn't leave willingly and they wouldn't tolerate an influx of immigrants. Do you hate foreigners so much that you would prefer violence to a system of accepting immigrants as they are needed?
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USA doesn't own this land. They stole it, occupied it, and placed borders around. They have no ethical say in anything that goes on with this land above any other person on the planet. Lower wages and unskilled labor etc. are not immigration issues. They are systematic issues of a slave economy. As for what to do with the land and population, I have a city design organization that can well take care of 10 times as many people without the need for slave labor, and open up landspace for nature/environment. It's what my website is for.
 
Possession is 9/10ths of the law.:cool:

Lowered wages BECAUSE of unskilled labor ARE immigration issues, to deny this is just being childish or simply uninformed.

Well good for you and your city design.

I'm sure it's all hobbity and smurfy.:D

What that has to do with immigration policies I have no idea.
 
So if you have a house in the US and someone moves into it while you're on vacation, it no longer belongs to you?
 
S.A.M. said:
So if you have a house in the US and someone moves into it while you're on vacation, it no longer belongs to you?
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This question has nothing to do with what is being posited in the OP. The US didn't move into anyone's teepee they conquered the whole land, which was a very long time ago. Notice that lixluke couldn't give a solution of what would become of the 250 million people who have been living on the land for generations, nor does he know how unlimited immigration would affect the standard of living in a society.
 
But the US is still moving into other peoples teepee even as we speak. So the "US law" is not all encompassing? It only applies to white people?
 
S.A.M. said:
But the US is still moving into other peoples teepee even as we speak. So the "US law" is not all encompassing? It only applies to white people?
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U.S. law only applies to U.S. citizens... made and enforced by them.
 
And its the US who unethically occupied native American land, who decides what US citizens are.

Correct?
 
Crunchy Cat said:
Ethics don't objectively exist. And yes the US decides what US citizens are.
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Actually ethics do objectively exist. the problem or issue is that it's usually only applied self-servingly so everyone has to fight for thiers, demand it or get others to be reasonable and consider thier side, needs, boundaries etc or revolt or cause some sort of backlash. unfortunately that's how balance is achieved the hard and painful way because people have a tendency to think they can get thier way without consideration that they live amongst others who also have feelings, desires, feel pain and suffering etc.

ethics is derived from what produces a state of well-being and anything that violates that well-being by actions of others is considered unethical. everyone has that dilemma just by being alive.
 
birch said:
Actually ethics do objectively exist.
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Incorrect. If they did then you would be able to point out their existence in the absence of humans and answer explicitly what they are made of as well as point out their physical location. You can't obviously; therefore, the are subjective human creations.

birch said:
the problem or issue is that it's usually only applied self-servingly so everyone has to fight for thiers, demand it or get others to be reasonable and consider thier side, needs, boundaries etc or revolt or cause some sort of backlash. unfortunately that's how balance is achieved the hard and painful way because people have a tendency to think they can get thier way without consideration that they live amongst others who also have feelings, desires, feel pain and suffering etc.
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That's competition that you are describing.

birch said:
ethics is derived from what produces a state of well-being and anything that violates that well-being by actions of others is considered unethical. everyone has that dilemma just by being alive.
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Closer. Ethics are derived through survival evaluations:

1) Are you mean?
2) Are you valuable.

combined with cultural value influences.
 
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