Immaculate Conception

[Bishadi]

Any ever hear r read about this idea, dogma, belief and/or prophecy?


well i had an idea de utter day.

what if the prophecy (idea) came from the concept, that 'when' the truth is upon the earth (that time) that children will be born without women having intercourse?


ie..... many are doing it all over the world, right NOW, during OUR TIME.

what's a test tube baby?

i thought this might be an interesting thread idea.

anyone know the old old old old stuff well enough to dig into the idea? (pre torah)

 

[one_raven]

That's not what Immaculate Conception is - if you are referring to the Catholic Dogma.

Most Catholics don't even realize that the Immacualte Conception was not the conception of Jesus - it was Mary's conception.

Mary's natural conception was a miracle, because God blessed her to be a pure vessel for his son - in Catholic Dogma, this pure vessel needed to be exempt from "Original Sin".

It has nothing at all to do with not having parents or sex.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

 

[shichimenshyo]

Don't test tube babies still need a mother to carry the child through development?

 

[christa]

my daughter is an immaculate conception!! hahaa.. she was conceived by my gfs toy after she finished and then tuhduh!! hahhaa...my dad likes that excuse haha

 

[christa]

Don't test tube babies still need a mother to carry the child through development?

they do

 

[Nasor]

Any ever hear r read about this idea, dogma, belief and/or prophecy?


well i had an idea de utter day.

what if the prophecy (idea) came from the concept, that 'when' the truth is upon the earth (that time) that children will be born without women having intercourse?


ie..... many are doing it all over the world, right NOW, during OUR TIME.

Personally, I see absolutely nothing in the text of the bible to indicate that this is what it means when it talks about Jesus's sexless conception.

(As was already pointed out, the "immaculate conception" was Mary's conception, not Jesus's. But that's not really relevant to your point.)

 

[christa]

hhehee i think they had sex before marriage and god was like OOO lets use them!!!


tho, i cant help but wonder, if maybe they lied? what if that was just their excuse? lol. its just the what iff question people, dont beat me up for it

 

[shichimenshyo]

Lying about sex before marriage? OMG that's....unheard..of?

 

[christa]

Lying about sex before marriage? OMG that's....unheard..of?

hahhaaaa. alot of people do it! LOL! I am considered an abomination to some churches

 

[Anti-Flag]

Immaculate Conception

Thanks for noticing.

 

[Bishadi]

Thanks for noticing.

you a test tube baby?

 

[Bishadi]

Personally, I see absolutely nothing in the text of the bible to indicate that this is what it means when it talks about Jesus's sexless conception.

i asked about 'before' torah (old stuff, not the ammended ammendments of the revised revision, that has evolved over 1000's of generations)

if you are having a hard time comprehending how off the NT is about comprehension, just read Matt 1 and find how off the beaten path, the idea of jesus lineage really is

(As was already pointed out, the "immaculate conception" was Mary's conception, not Jesus's. But that's not really relevant to your point.)

theotokos is nothing new and geeked up all over the world

but anyone ever read anything from her hand? her pen?

nope, just opinions of ideas and concepts, that originated somewhere!

that is what i am inqiring on

anyone know the samarian tablets well.....?

sanskrit?

how about greek mythology?

 

[one_raven]

i asked about 'before' torah (old stuff, not the ammended ammendments of the revised revision, that has evolved over 1000's of generations)

It doesn't exist.
Did you read the link?
There is no concept of "Immacualte Conception" in the Bible that was later twisted, misconstrued or mistranslated.

Immaculate Conception was created by the Catholic church to explain how Jesus could have been born free of original sin.

 

[Bishadi]

It doesn't exist.
Did you read the link?
There is no concept of "Immacualte Conception" in the Bible that was later twisted, misconstrued or mistranslated.

Immaculate Conception was created by the Catholic church to explain how Jesus could have been born free of original sin.

each can sin

and if you believe the apple story of Eve, then you following the "twisted, misconstrued or mistranslated" story.......


ie... if mankind was in the garden as not of choice, then they were instinctive at the time. Then it seems a 'choice' was made and man learned how to be 'aware' of self (consciousness)

i call it a fine day, many of beliefs condemn women.

to many, people think each child is born bad, because of it (notice the church idea of 'born free of sin') women is considered "less than" man but most know better than that (mom rules).

(we fall on our heads getting out, then for the rest of our lives, trying to get back in; it's a common psychosis)

 

[one_raven]

each can sin

and if you believe the apple story of Eve, then you following the "twisted, misconstrued or mistranslated" story.......


ie... if mankind was in the garden as not of choice, then they were instinctive at the time. Then it seems a 'choice' was made and man learned how to be 'aware' of self (consciousness)

i call it a fine day, many of beliefs condemn women.

to many, people think each child is born bad, because of it (notice the church idea of 'born free of sin') women is considered "less than" man but most know better than that (mom rules).

(we fall on our heads getting out, then for the rest of our lives, trying to get back in; it's a common psychosis)

I don't believe in Original Sin at all - please refrain from presuming you know anything about me.
I am not a Christian - but that's really not the point of this thread, is it?
In fact, preaching as you are doing, is not allowed on this forum at all.

The point of this thread, from how I understood the opening post, was to find the origins of the concept of "Immaculate Conception".
The link I posted in response explains the origins of the concept in more detail than most people would want to know.

The Catholic Church made it up and offered it as official doctrinal apology for how Jesus could have been exempt from original sin. Their answer was that God blessed Mary at the time of the creation of her soul and she was the Immaculate Conception - the one exemption from the law of Original Sin. It's as simple as that.

The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.

"...was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin..."
The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam — from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.

 

[Bishadi]

I don't believe in Original Sin at all - please refrain from presuming you know anything about me.

i said IF

I am not a Christian - bit that's really not the point of this thread, is it?
In fact, preaching as you are doing, is not allowed on this forum at all.

i don't preach
(me not very religious as far as beliefs (any sect))

The point of this thread, from how I understood the opening post, was to find the origins of the concept of "Immaculate Conception".
The link I posted in response explains the origins of the concept in more detail than most people would want to know.

OK

and i was asking for older

The Catholic Church made it up and offered it as official doctrinal apology for how Jess could have been exempt from original sin.

and jesus said, he was not GOOD, 'per bible'

so what 'they' believe and what is written, is often quite different (ie... interpretations vary)

Their answer was that God blessed Mary at the time of the creation of her soul and she was the Immaculate Conception - the one exemption from the law of Original Sin. It's as simple as that.

OK, so we now know, you have YOUR idea as to what the WHOLE of the idea is based on.

I am asking if others know of something a weeeeeeeeeeeeeee bit older and PERHAPS of prophecy.

i would like to read the material, not the opinions as i had an IDEA as to what the WHOLE concept COULD mean

this is a forum and when more than ONE mind is thinking, each can learn a bit

ie... i have learned a bunch since being a member, have you?

 

[one_raven]

i don't preach
(me not very religious as far as beliefs (any sect))

You don't have to be religious to preach.

and i was asking for older

And I'm telling you there isn't older.
Do you have any reason at all to believe otherwise?
If so, please let us know.

and jesus said, he was not GOOD, 'per bible'

so what 'they' believe and what is written, is often quite different (ie... interpretations vary)

What does this have to do with anything at all?

OK, so we now know, you have YOUR idea as to what the WHOLE of the idea is based on.

It's not MY idea - it is history.

I am asking if others know of something a weeeeeeeeeeeeeee bit older and PERHAPS of prophecy.

Judging by your comments of test-tube babies and children being born without intercourse, I think you likely have no clue what you are talking about and are searching for something to back up your nonsensical idea.
Are you looking for the origins of "Immaculate Conception? If so, I linked you to them. It's really quite simple.

Are you looking for early myths, legends and religious doctrine about people having babies without having sex?
Sure, there are plenty of them - but that is NOT what "Immaculate Conception" refers to.

i would like to read the material, not the opinions as i had an IDEA as to what the WHOLE concept COULD mean

Did you look at the link?
It is not some idiot's opinion of what happened - it the the official stance of the Catholic Church - who made it up.
It IS the material.

 

[one_raven]

If you are looking for information about the various Virgin Birth Myths (not Immaculate Conception) you can start Here.

Jesus, Vishnu, Zoroaster, Mars, Karna, Kabir.

 

[Bishadi]

You don't have to be religious to preach.

then is that 't'each

And I'm telling you there isn't older.

then i guess you complacent to just facing a wall

What does this have to do with anything at all?

no one EVER born is incapable or without the capacity of sin (so the premise of 'without sin' is stupid as the man himself, say he was not good; clear enough?)

It's not MY idea - it is history.

but if you not read it all, (the globes knowledge) as well like your wall, then you depth of history is short (about knee high)

Judging by your comments of test-tube babies and children being born without intercourse, I think you likely have no clue what you are talking about and are searching for something to back up your nonsensical idea.

if a 'per se prophecy' unfolded in a dream, a women thanking a doctor for giving her a child, when she had no man' then i could see the idea of a 'miracle' being conveyed in HIS interpretations.

but since, mary DID NOT WRITE the story, then ALL ideas, are suspect to that so called history you talking up a storm on.

i offered an idea, not the bottom line

but i follow the bottom line of being fair and observant, with an HONEST intent to learn and seek.

ie... it is a phenomenon, and i like to seek all of them; (i have personally experienced deja vu, and comprehend how entanglement works, so to me prophecy could exist) So if someone had the observance, then i wonder what it could be in rational thinking, rather than magical)

Are you looking for the origins of "Immaculate Conception? If so, I linked you to them. It's really quite simple.

Are you looking for early myths, legends and religious doctrine about people having babies without having sex?

isn't that basically what the bible is?

most is post nicene 4th century

i am looking for older. is that too much to ask?

Sure, there are plenty of them - but that is NOT what "Immaculate Conception" refers to.

doooooood....neither word is anywhere in the NT

them interpretations as to the event

so your use is flagrant by example in itself

i used the term, for the inquiry knowing damn well this very fact

Did you look at the link?
It is not some idiot's opinion of what happened - it the the official stance of the Catholic Church - who made it up.
It IS the material.

and i am not questioning the church uses, creates and makes up lots of stuff

that is not the inquiry

 

[one_raven]

OK.
One last time.

There is a difference between a "Virgin Birth" and the "Immaculate Conception".

Immaculate Conception was NOT the conception of Jesus.
Immaculate Conception was the conception of Mary. Mary's mother was not a virgin. Mary was concieved in the traditional way of her dad banging her mom.
Immaculate Concpetion has nothing to do with being a virgin or being born to a virgin.

There are plenty of religious stories about "Virgin Births" (one of them being Jesus). I pointed out the several Virgin Birth stories that were referenced in the Wikipedia article.

If you want to learn more about "Virgin Births" I suggest you search for "Virgin Births" as opposed to "Immaculate Conception".
The Catholic Church made up the idea of the Immaculate Conception, because one day, someone said, "Hey. How can Jesus be without sin if he was born of a mortal woman, thus was subject to "Original Sin"?" Their answer was that God must have blessed Mary because he needed a perfectly pure vessel to carry Jesus.
Since Mary was blessed by God, Jesus could have been born without Original Sin.

None of this is in the Bible, because it was created as an afterthought to fill in the blanks. It is Catholic Doctrine. The Catholic Church made up the concept.
As far as I am aware, the Catholics were the first in history to even convieve of "Original Sin", therefore, no other group had any need for their savior to be born excluded from "Original Sin" so nobody ever had to make up the "Immaculate Conception" before. In Catholic Doctrine, it is Jesus that redeems man of his Original Sin through his own suffering and death. Without Original Sin, you don't need an "Immaculate Conception".

Do you understand now?