immaculate conception

[mario]

I'm a bit perturbed about this whole virgin birth thing.

1) How come god needed a human to create a version of himself? God only needed some dust to create life before (adam).

2) Was an egg of mary's used? Or was god just borrowing her womb?

3) If an egg was somehow "fertilized" with the spirit of god, does that mean that jesus was half human with human dna from mary?

4) And if jesus DID have human dna, can you imagine if some of that dna was found perserved (from the shroud of turin, or remnants of the cross for example)...and through the technique of cloning we could "resurrect" him? Too weird! But maybe possible.

 

[okinrus]

1) How come god needed a human to create a version of himself? God only needed some dust to create life before (adam).

God needs nothing. He chose to save us through human nature, and he'd be unable to do that without becoming a human being.

2) Was an egg of mary's used? Or was god just borrowing her womb?

Some writings outside of the Bible suggest something like that. But the Bible itself doesn't say too much.

3) If an egg was somehow "fertilized" with the spirit of god, does that mean that jesus was half human with human dna from mary?

DNA is only a human attribute. Fertiilzation couldn't have occurred in the normal way.

4) And if jesus DID have human dna, can you imagine if some of that dna was found perserved (from the shroud of turin, or remnants of the cross for example)

We do have blood from the shroud of Turin along with Eucharistic miracles. People have tested the blood type and found they are all the same.

...and through the technique of cloning we could "resurrect" him? Too weird! But maybe possible.

No, you'd only be recreating a physical body. The person may look like Jesus, but would have to created a new person, I think.

 

[SnakeLord]

If I was a 'believer', which I am not - I would answer:

1) How come god needed a human to create a version of himself? God only needed some dust to create life before (adam).

He didn't 'need' to. He just felt like it.

It's odd though to see the people who limit god the most, and seemingly put him down the most are religious folk. As seen here:

he'd be unable to do that without becoming a human being

See how little they think of their god?

2) Was an egg of mary's used? Or was god just borrowing her womb?

Demi gods abound in mythology, and it would most likely be half and half. Mary's egg, god's sperm. Kind of like breeding a tiger and a lion - you get a liger. Same process.. Breed a human and a god and you get a guman.

3) If an egg was somehow "fertilized" with the spirit of god, does that mean that jesus was half human with human dna from mary?

Yeah.

4) And if jesus DID have human dna, can you imagine if some of that dna was found perserved (from the shroud of turin, or remnants of the cross for example)

The shroud of turin has nothing to do with jesus. There have been a few religious nutbags claiming they've found jesus' blood. Last I heard a guy claimed to have found his blood but then seemingly lost it when people asked to see it.

and through the technique of cloning we could "resurrect" him? Too weird! But maybe possible.

Certainly, then all the millions of deluded religious folk would finally realise the dude wasn't a white man.

 

[duendy]

I'm a bit perturbed about this whole virgin birth thing.

d)))you will stay 'perturbed' as long as you ask the wrong and limited questions, which keep you stuck in literalism.

1) How come god needed a human to create a version of himself? God only needed some dust to create life before (adam).

d)))a 'God' didn't REALLY create a version of himself as 'Jesus'. That is just a literalist version of a much deeper understanding.

2) Was an egg of mary's used? Or was god just borrowing her womb?

Again. nno such egg of a woman called 'Mary' was used. if you look at myth comparitively, you see this same motif in other myths. some of them didn't try to pretend their myths were historical, like the Christians did, and STILL do....in 2005!

3) If an egg was somehow "fertilized" with the spirit of god, does that mean that jesus was half human with human dna from mary?

d)))))))read answers above

4) And if jesus DID have human dna, can you imagine if some of that dna was found perserved (from the shroud of turin, or remnants of the cross for example)...and through the technique of cloning we could "resurrect" him? Too weird! But maybe possible.

not....the first insight was right. too weird. AND too literalist.
For the deeper understanding of the myth is not referring to an actual human being, but to an hallucinogenic sacrament! MUCH more plausible, in my opinion

 

[kenworth]

i thought it was proved the turin shroud was from the 13th century?god can do whatever it likes,he could have put a chipmunk inside mary and made it work.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

mario: I'm a bit perturbed about this whole virgin birth thing.
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M*W: So are a lot of christians. They are just not buying the 'virgin birth' story anymore. Christianity Today magazine ran an article about christianity's decline. Both Protestant and Catholic bishops met to discuss how to modernize christianity and make it more attractive and logical to the fallen away congregations. They decided that in order to update christianity, the churches should no longer teach the virgin birth, the resurrection, or the trinity. There were others, but I don't remember them.
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mario:

1) How come god needed a human to create a version of himself? God only needed some dust to create life before (adam).
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M*W:

Answer: Since there is no such thing as "god," Jesus was not created as a version of god. Jesus evolved just like the rest of us.
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mario:

2) Was an egg of mary's used? Or was god just borrowing her womb?
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M*W: Yes, an egg of Mary's was fertilized, but not by a god who doesn't exist. I suppose you could say Jesus was just borrowing her womb like my children "borrowed" mine.
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mario:

3) If an egg was somehow "fertilized" with the spirit of god, does that mean that jesus was half human with human dna from mary?
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M*W: The egg was fertilized and the human being that was formed had a healthy viable bioelectric system which was not the "spirit of god."
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mario:

4) And if jesus DID have human dna, can you imagine if some of that dna was found perserved (from the shroud of turin, or remnants of the cross for example)...and through the technique of cloning we could "resurrect" him? Too weird! But maybe possible.
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M*W: Jesus did have human DNA, and that DNA was preserved, but not from the Shroud of Turin. Jesus's DNA was preserved in his descendants with Mary Magdalen. Their children intermarried with the royal class of French kings. Everyone who is alive today is related to Charlemagne, but Charlemagne was descended from the first French kings some 700 years after Jesus. Genealogically speaking, 700 years is traceable, especially among the ruling classes. My point here is that Jesus didn't die on the cross. He lived and made it safely out of Jerusalem.

The Shroud of Turin is not associated with Jesus. Most likely it was jokingly created by Leonardo da Vinci to addle the masses. We don't need to clone Jesus to "resurrect" him. Jesus is being "resurrected" now by archeologists and biblical scholars
who are proving that the bible doesn't hold the true account of Jesus. I suspect Jesus's bones are buried somewhere in the South of France, because that's where Mary Magdalen, their children, Joseph of Arimathea, and MM's family sailed with Jesus. It's quite possible that his remains can be found in Rennes-le-Chateau, France. The Vatican has sued to stop all archeological digs in this area of France. I wonder why?

BTW, a clone is not an exact duplicate. It has the same DNA as the host's parents, but the genes would be expressed only as if the host parents had another child. Siblings have similar DNA, but not all siblings look alike or have the same health conditions. So, cloning Jesus to resurrect him isn't possible. It would be like cloning Jesus but getting James.

 

[ghost7584]

I'm a bit perturbed about this whole virgin birth thing.

1) How come god needed a human to create a version of himself? God only needed some dust to create life before (adam).

2) Was an egg of mary's used? Or was god just borrowing her womb?

3) If an egg was somehow "fertilized" with the spirit of god, does that mean that jesus was half human with human dna from mary?

4) And if jesus DID have human dna, can you imagine if some of that dna was found perserved (from the shroud of turin, or remnants of the cross for example)...and through the technique of cloning we could "resurrect" him? Too weird! But maybe possible.

The Messiah needed fulfill the Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah, which said that he would be of the seed of David or a descendant of David. Mary's geneology is traced in the gospel of Luke, and she is a descendant of David. So Mary was needed to fulfill the Messiah prophecy.
Probably an egg of Mary was used, so that Jesus the Messiah would be a descendant of David to fulfill the Messiah prophecy about that.
Jesus would have had half DNA from Mary.
We don't have Jesus' DNA to do any cloning. The shroud of Taurin was proven to be a fake, with red ocre paint pigment found in the blood stains by a forensic scientist and a microscope.

 

[Itseemstome]

Don't be perturbed about this 'whole virgin birth thing'. It was an essential part of starting a new religion for thousands of years. If your god, or his close relative, was not born of a virgin there would be a strong suspicion that he, or she, was merely one of us, and that would never do.

The nicest explanation that I have seen was that the Essenes, for surely that was where Jesus was born, were rigidly fundamentalist (oh dear, that word again) and potential marriage partners partook of sexual union at the spring equinox. If the woman was pregnant the marriage then took place at some later date and the woman was referred to as a virgin at marriage. As the story goes Mary did not marry until after the birth and it was therefore a virgin birth. Lovely story.

 

[mario]

I was kinda hoping to hear more from religious people. I may talk about god as if he exists but I am agnostic. I only mention god as an assumption when I am asking questions that may point to dubious logic of his existence.

Hmmm, I thought that you can take the dna from whatever and insert it in an "empty" egg devoid of it's original dna and that egg will grow to take on the characteristics of that foreign dna. But I could be wrong.

"He chose to save us through human nature" (okinrus)
...not really sure what that means. Jesus's ability to raise the dead, walk on water, turn water into wine etc etc seems a little removed from human nature.

 

[wesmorris]

To answer the questions, one must put one's self in the place of god. VANITY. That's my favorite sin.

 

[Roman]

BTW, a clone is not an exact duplicate. It has the same DNA as the host's parents, but the genes would be expressed only as if the host parents had another child. Siblings have similar DNA, but not all siblings look alike or have the same health conditions. So, cloning Jesus to resurrect him isn't possible. It would be like cloning Jesus but getting James.

That's not how cloning works. Cloning Jesus would, in fact, be duplicating his genes, A for A, T for T, C for C and G for G. There's only one full set of genes, 46 chromosomes, to pull from. So cloning Jesus would give you 46 chromosomes. Unless you wanted a Down Syndrome Jesus.
Sexual reproduction basically scrambles 92 chromosomes, then mixes them up into 46 to make a child (22 random from the mother + 1 X, and 22 random from the father + 1 X or Y chromosome).
So you could clone Jesus, if the Shroud was really his, and there was a full DNA sequence on it.
There was an Outer Limits episode like that.

 

[Roman]

Oh, and the immaculate conception refers to the Catholic idea that the Virgin Mary was free of orginal sin at conception.

Medicine Woman,
I recently visited Rennes-le-chateau. Did a little climbing. It was really frellin old, especially compared to all the contemporary shit we build in the states.
What makes you think Christ's buried there? Because it's Cathar?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Roman: Medicine Woman, I recently visited Rennes-le-chateau. Did a little climbing. It was really frellin old, especially compared to all the contemporary shit we build in the states.
What makes you think Christ's buried there? Because it's Cathar?
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M*W: I've been researching RLC for about 20 years now. It's such an enigmatic place. So many books have been written about it. I've been close to there, too, about 25 years ago. I love France.
There are so many theories that Jesus's bones are there. MM's relics are all over France. Interesting theory is that all those shrines dedicated to the virgin Mary are really shrines to MM. The Knights Templar constructed the huge cathedrals in France, and they dedicated them to Jesus's wife and the mother of his children -- not his own mother.

I'd like to hear more about your visit to RLC.

 

[spidergoat]

The concept of a virgin birth was just a way to deal with the historically unappealing notion that Jesus was a bastard, it was also a construction intended to make him out to have fufilled OT prophecy.

It's all an attempt to place Jesus on a pedestal, to reinforce the Church's authority, and withhold the revolutionary notion that anyone can achieve the same connection with the devine within that he did. Christianity is a conspiracy to cover up what Jesus really taught.

 

[wesmorris]

That's not how cloning works. Cloning Jesus would, in fact, be duplicating his genes, A for A, T for T, C for C and G for G. There's only one full set of genes, 46 chromosomes, to pull from. So cloning Jesus would give you 46 chromosomes. Unless you wanted a Down Syndrome Jesus.
Sexual reproduction basically scrambles 92 chromosomes, then mixes them up into 46 to make a child (22 random from the mother + 1 X, and 22 random from the father + 1 X or Y chromosome).
So you could clone Jesus, if the Shroud was really his, and there was a full DNA sequence on it.
There was an Outer Limits episode like that.

It's interesting that all life seems to be based on an expression of semantics.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

spidergoat: The concept of a virgin birth was just a way to deal with the historically unappealing notion that Jesus was a bastard, it was also a construction intended to make him out to have fufilled OT prophecy.

It's all an attempt to place Jesus on a pedestal, to reinforce the Church's authority, and withhold the revolutionary notion that anyone can achieve the same connection with the devine within that he did. Christianity is a conspiracy to cover up what Jesus really taught.
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M*W: Amen, bro!

 

[Roman]

Medicine Woman,
So I've been dipping into the religion forum here for a little bit, and always enjoyed reading about your MM&Jesus theory. Then, to my surprise, I found out they wrote a trashy historical novel about it, and I was going on a block class that was searching for the Holy Grail. I felt so special because I had been reading what you've probably been saying for years, and now they're making a movie and everyon thinks they're so in on things when the read the Code.
We traveled from Paris to Bacelona in the course of two weeks, visiting a bunch of really holy sites, getting back on the bus, and going to another. It felt rather sacrilgious, and we were all too hungover to read about where we were.

Anyhow, Rennes sticks out in my mind because it had an unmistakeable oldeness about it. The rock houses (built not from brick, but rocks sort of brick shaped) were probably originals, having been up since the place was built. All the mortar had rotted away and turned to moss.
The turrets here and there, probably once being unasssailable, had become perfect chimneys for scaling, with lovely little hand holds.

But what struck me most about the place, other than the immense age, was how different it felt from the rest of France. Well, I have only spent 10 days in France, ever, and too many in Paris (I really don't care for that city), so anything in the country, on top of a hill, older than the US, and shrouded in mystery would feel different.
The buidlings were very different though. Something about everything, the proportions and height, felt much different than the cathedrals and other castles.

I found some old, broken stained glass from God knows when, and pocketed it. I climbed their walls, went up their towers, broke into their graveyard.... I got to know the place a little intimiately, with my hands and feet. I think it was because everything was so low and of such old stone that it had a much more... humble feel than the cathedrals and stuff. Rather than imposing, Rennes itself was humble in size. None of that gaudy flying butress stuff. No austere, bleeding saints. It's utilitarianism was downright earthy.
And the place was pretty dirty, fading into vines and moss and dust.

 

[okinrus]

"He chose to save us through human nature" (okinrus) ...not really sure what that means. Jesus's ability to raise the dead, walk on water, turn water into wine etc etc seems a little removed from human nature.

Jesus didn't completely leave his Divine nature behind. What I meant by saving us through human nature, what that God's human flesh would save us.

 

[Asguard]

okinrus: Do you belive in the old testiment as more than fiction devised to help people without the benifit of science to explaine things they saw around them (and in some cases protect them)?

if so then wouldnt creating jeaus out of dust BE the same as everyone else?
i mean it says thats what ALL humans are origionally ANYWAY so he would still be a human like the rest

anyway since someone else mentioned the code whats do you think Medicine Woman the chances are that jeaus line still exists?

how cool would it be to find out that your related to jesus, especially if you happen to be a christan or how ironic if you happen to be an athiast

 

[okinrus]

okinrus: Do you belive in the old testiment as more than fiction devised to help people without the benifit of science to explaine things they saw around them (and in some cases protect them)?

The OT was to provide moral and spiritual guidance. It wasn't to provide the Israelites with the workings of the universe. It's not that the OT is a work of fiction. It's like if you were to read a scientific book and then attempt to use it as your source of ethics and religion.

if so then wouldnt creating jeaus out of dust BE the same as everyone else?
i mean it says thats what ALL humans are origionally ANYWAY so he would still be a human like the rest

The Father didn't create Jesus. Jesus assumed human nature. Second, I wouldn't consider dust to have human nature. Adam did have human nature and was called Adam, meaning "man".