If you want to honestly and seriously believe in God ...

[greenberg]

You do not believe in God, so why even consider hell.

It is not that simple, though. I see no need to believe in God, in order to take hell seriously.
For me, hell would be that there is no end to suffering, that human action is all for naught.

Or do you think that hell can only exist if God exists too?

I am open to the possibility that the Universe is evil or chaotic, or that God is evil. In fact, looking at the world, these are the most likely conclusions.
I am afraid that the Universe is evil or chaotic or that God is evil, and that human action is all for naught - and so that suffering is forever, we get reborn over and over again and then the whole thing happens all over again. It is my greatest fear that there is no end to suffering.

Theists are suggesting a solution to this, saying basically, "Believe in the right God, the right way, and you'll be saved from suffering." I want to be free from suffering, hence my interest in theism.

But given the multitude of theisms and their sometimes mutually exclusive claims, it becomes infinitely difficult to figure out which God to believe in and what this right way would be.

 

[greenberg]

I have never asked for your respect, nor do i want you to respect me. I am a fallible human being there is only One you should respect God.

I do not want you to trust me. Trusting in human beings is the surest way a person can be lead to destruction. Trust in God

I am not looking for people to follow me.

If you don't want us to trust you, respect you and believe you, then what are you doing talking to us in the first place?!

Do you not value your message, nor yourself, nor us?

Apparently, you do not wish to take any responsibility for what you are saying and for what your words may cause to another person.

You just go around, spreading your message, beating blindly all over the place.

 

[Jan Ardena]

greenberg,

For me, hell would be that there is no end to suffering, that human action is all for naught.

For you, what is suffering?
And what is the cause of suffering?

Or do you think that hell can only exist if God exists too?

Nothing (we percieve) exists without God, that is my understanding.

I am open to the possibility that the Universe is evil or chaotic, or that God is evil. In fact, looking at the world, these are the most likely conclusions.
I am afraid that the Universe is evil or chaotic or that God is evil, and that human action is all for naught - and so that suffering is forever, we get reborn over and over again and then the whole thing happens all over again. It is my greatest fear that there is no end to suffering.

Its a pity you don't give this much energy to scriptures or people who live accordingly.

Theists are suggesting a solution to this, saying basically, "Believe in the right God, the right way, and you'll be saved from suffering." I want to be free from suffering, hence my interest in theism.

Judging by your reaction to the two theists in your links, I don't think you fully understand what it is they are saying to you, while at the same time you are giving your own opinions based on what's in your head. You are basically wasting time with this pursuit as you are not prepared to hear what others have to say on the matter.

But given the multitude of theisms and their sometimes mutually exclusive claims, it becomes infinitely difficult to figure out which God to believe in and what this right way would be.

This is a typical (new) atheist mind-set, designed to kill any futher discussion on God. As is "where is the (scientific) evidence for God", and "if God created the universe, who created God". Is this where you are at?

Jan.

 

[greenberg]

For you, what is suffering?

Boredom, longing, anger, hatred, confusion, having what I don't want to have, not having what I want to have.

And what is the cause of suffering?

I would have to speculate on that, as currently, I don't know. It could be many things.

But thinking myself as either "basically good" or "basically bad" does not help to reduce suffering, this I know. Because both stances lead to inaction, to complacency, to passivity - which lead to more boredom, longing, anger, hatred, confusion, having what I don't want to have, not having what I want to have.

Nothing (we percieve) exists without God, that is my understanding.

That would include evil then, too.

Its a pity you don't give this much energy to scriptures or people who live accordingly.

You apparently didn't grow up with the kind of Christianity I did. We were basically taught to ease into the prospect of being burnt alive for all eternity. I would go to bed each night, thinking that if God wants to punish me with eternal hellfire, then so it must be and I must accept that, he does it because he loves me.
It's not reasonable to expect that after some thirty years of such beliefs, it will be easy to give them up. The attachment to them, albeit a negative one, is very strong.

Judging by your reaction to the two theists in your links, I don't think you fully understand what it is they are saying to you, while at the same time you are giving your own opinions based on what's in your head. You are basically wasting time with this pursuit as you are not prepared to hear what others have to say on the matter.

They are telling me to think myself as basically bad, to give up my integrity and to believe the word of man, blindly (even though they say it's not the word of man, but of God).
I know what it does if I think that way - I have the "right beliefs", but I become lazy and complacent, not respecting my beliefs, nor my life nor anyone or anything else.

But given the multitude of theisms and their sometimes mutually exclusive claims, it becomes infinitely difficult to figure out which God to believe in and what this right way would be.

This is a typical (new) atheist mind-set, designed to kill any futher discussion on God.

Designed?

It certainly speaks of the frustrations of people who delve into issues of belief in God.

As is "where is the (scientific) evidence for God", and "if God created the universe, who created God". Is this where you are at?

No. But witnessing the religious wars and disputes, one cannot help but to wonder who "has it right" when each of the two parties claim they "have it right".
It is not fair that the burden of proof for their claims is placed on our shoulders. It is their attempt to rid themselves of any responsibility for the claims they make.

 

[greenberg]

I don't need them to value me.

You should. It makes for poor or mostly worthless communication if people don't care about each other. It takes two for communication to make sense.

Your communication is mostly strictly one-way.

 

[Sarkus]

I am not talking for myself. When a king receives a kind message from another king he does not run down from his throne and hug and kiss the messenger, When a Generals orders are delivered to a captain by a common solider he does not snap to attention and salute the common solider and say Yes Sir..

The message that i am giving is to stop following Men, Stop being affected by Men. Follow the word.

What you therefore end up doing is called "PREACHING" - and I think it is against the rules of the Forum.

So please desist from such immediately.

Thank you.

 

[Adstar]

You should. It makes for poor or mostly worthless communication if people don't care about each other. It takes two for communication to make sense.

Your communication is mostly strictly one-way.

Oh you have misinterpreted what i am saying. I did not say that i did not seek to be cared for or that i did not want to be cared for by others,

What i was saying is i do not want to be a follower of any person and i do not want anyone to be a follower of me.

And there has been two-way conversation. I have read your first post in this thread and you have been saying the same thing for the past weeks. I know what you are saying. I just believe it is wrong. You claim no one has answered your question but I have been answering it for a while now and you just cannot accept my answer. And i am sure you understand my answer.

So don't take the rejection of what you put forward as someone ignoring you when it is someone disagreeing with you, just as you have disagreed with the answer i have given you.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[greenberg]

And i am sure you understand my answer.

You have provided an answer that, if a person were to accept it, they would have to act immorally, they would have to corrupt themselves cognitively and morally.
That is, they would, firstly, blindly have to believe you; and two, they would have to think of themselves as basically bad. Either way, they would be acting in a manner that would request them to give up whatever integrity they have. They might as well believe in lucky guesses or superstition and rituals.

I am seeking to get you to see that.

 

[Sarkus]

Everyone that i know who comes on a forum irrespective of the topics dealt with come to give their thoughts. And that is what i am doing. If people don't want to hear the thoughts of theists then why have a "Religion" topic section where theists are allowed to post?

No offence, but these aren't "your thoughts":

You specifically said: "I am not talking for myself. When a king receives a kind message from another king he does not run down from his throne and hug and kiss the messenger, When a Generals orders are delivered to a captain by a common solider he does not snap to attention and salute the common solider and say Yes Sir.."

How can these be "your thoughts" if they are but a message?

And in the same post you go on: "I value the message more than my life, And i value the chance to give it in the hope that others will value it. I don't need them to value me. Because i am not the message." Thus further distancing yourself from the words you give.

And then you follow it up with a passage from the Bible.


Preaching.
Please desist.

 

[Adstar]

You have provided an answer that, if a person were to accept it, they would have to act immorally, they would have to corrupt themselves cognitively and morally.

No, It would mean you would need to place yourself at the mercy of God and trust in Him to lead you to what you need to accept. Some people just cannot give up their control of the situation even when their path is leading towards destruction, they just cannot trust in the One who is calling to them and they resist too long.

That is, they would, firstly, blindly have to believe you; and two,

Nope this is garbage.

they would have to think of themselves as basically bad.

Yes this is true.

Either way, they would be acting in a manner that would request them to give up whatever integrity they have. They might as well believe in lucky guesses or superstition and rituals.

I am seeking to get you to see that.

You have been doing your best to justify your decision not to make a decision. Maybe in the hope that pleading ignorance on the day of judgement will see you cleared of the responsibility of not making a decision. You can brain wash yourself into believing in your excuse but you have not won me over to your excuse and i believe God will not be fooled either.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[greenberg]

That is, they would, firstly, blindly have to believe you

Nope this is garbage.

This is how you fail to understand me. This is how you misinterpret me.


It is your personal faith against my life.

Of course you will choose your faith over my life.

 

[Frud11]

..you would need to place yourself at the mercy of God and trust in Him to lead you to what you need to accept..

What do you mean by mercy? Don't you mean something like the idea of God's grace? Why should I trust something I can't see or hear?

 

[Photizo]

Why should I trust something I can't see...

Because you're better than that.

 

[Frud11]

you're better than that.

Than what?