If the World was Meant to be Good then

[PsychoticEpisode]

isn't it? Yes,yes, we all know man screwed it up. Yes, we took free will to an unexpected level. Shocked the hell out of the Creator. The same creator that said everything was good. Too bad, no guarantee.

Anyway I was just wondering how a totally good world would work. What should have happened?

I was just thinking...if God made it an evil world then by golly He got it right. That would be good, God getting it right I mean. So if you want an evil world then you need us and Satan. What the hell is Satan doing in a good world for Christ's sake? One has to wonder.

But God built a good world by His standards. He even says so in the Christian bible. I just don't know how an all good world works. No accidents, deaths, disease, poverty, drought, hate, violence. A big love-in where everybody gets along. Would we need to eat? sleep? worry about anything?

Just think how great science would be, you'd be right about everything. That brings a question to mind....would trying to find out how things work constitute a bad deed? We could still invent a gun just for target practice, we'd only need one bullet. In fact if everything was meant to be good then we would always be perfect in every endeavor. All you theists who proclaim that the world was destined for goodness please explain how it would be today.

Is good really good for us?

 

[mike47]

1 : You are assuming there is a god .
2 : you are assuming god created this world .
3 : You are assuming there is satin .
4 : God built a good world ?!.
5 : Bible, Christianity....religions ?!.
There is no proof that there is one god or there are multiple gods or no god at all .
All reasonable thinking leads to one conclusion : religions are man made non sense and started in primitive ages .

 

[Enmos]

3 : You are assuming there is satin .

That's a fact though!

 

[mike47]

That's a fact though!

Where is he or she or it ?........ .

 

[Enmos]

Where is he or she or it ?........ .

It. It's everywhere.. Where have you been ?

He or she ?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

1 : You are assuming there is a god .
2 : you are assuming god created this world .
3 : You are assuming there is satin .

No shit! :shrug:

and Satin always feels good.

 

[Enmos]

Hehe

Sorry Mike

 

[lightgigantic]

isn't it? Yes,yes, we all know man screwed it up. Yes, we took free will to an unexpected level. Shocked the hell out of the Creator. The same creator that said everything was good. Too bad, no guarantee.

Anyway I was just wondering how a totally good world would work. What should have happened?

Good for what?

I was just thinking...if God made it an evil world then by golly He got it right. That would be good, God getting it right I mean. So if you want an evil world then you need us and Satan. What the hell is Satan doing in a good world for Christ's sake? One has to wonder.

Perhaps it would be better to start on questioning why you are in the world first.

But God built a good world by His standards.

and those standards are?

He even says so in the Christian bible. I just don't know how an all good world works. No accidents, deaths, disease, poverty, drought, hate, violence. A big love-in where everybody gets along. Would we need to eat? sleep? worry about anything?

depends whether our avenues of happiness have a foundation in anxiety I guess

Just think how great science would be, you'd be right about everything.

I'm not sure why you introduced omniscience as a requirement for a "good" world at this point in the discussion.

That brings a question to mind....would trying to find out how things work constitute a bad deed? We could still invent a gun just for target practice, we'd only need one bullet. In fact if everything was meant to be good then we would always be perfect in every endeavor. All you theists who proclaim that the world was destined for goodness please explain how it would be today.

Is good really good for us?

Generally we term the word "good' (or "bad") in terms of purpose or standard. For instance if someone says they have a good tractor, they usually don't mean that it goes around keeping the rust of other tractors and performing other benevolent acts. When you talk about the world being "good", are you coining the world as instrument of utility (like say a tractor) (IOW if you want "good" to mean "good for our purposes", you have to discuss what our purposes are).

Or perhaps you are using "good" in some sort of other fashion.

:shrug:

 

[Adstar]

isn't it? Yes,yes, we all know man screwed it up. Yes, we took free will to an unexpected level. Shocked the hell out of the Creator. The same creator that said everything was good. Too bad, no guarantee.

Anyway I was just wondering how a totally good world would work. What should have happened?

I was just thinking...if God made it an evil world then by golly He got it right. That would be good, God getting it right I mean. So if you want an evil world then you need us and Satan. What the hell is Satan doing in a good world for Christ's sake? One has to wonder.

But God built a good world by His standards. He even says so in the Christian bible. I just don't know how an all good world works. No accidents, deaths, disease, poverty, drought, hate, violence. A big love-in where everybody gets along. Would we need to eat? sleep? worry about anything?

Just think how great science would be, you'd be right about everything. That brings a question to mind....would trying to find out how things work constitute a bad deed? We could still invent a gun just for target practice, we'd only need one bullet. In fact if everything was meant to be good then we would always be perfect in every endeavor. All you theists who proclaim that the world was destined for goodness please explain how it would be today.

Is good really good for us?

If the world remained Good then Adam and Eve would still be in the garden and you and me would not exists because Adam and Eve would not have had any childeren.

Child bearing came after the fall.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

and those standards are?

How would I know what God's standards are? If He says the world is good then its good? Maybe God should have elaborated a bit more.

I'm not sure why you introduced omniscience as a requirement for a "good" world at this point in the discussion.

I see disappointment as a bad thing. You on the other hand may be happy to always be disappointed. Why experiment if you know. After a few experiments always go as expected would you do more? You might conclude that whatever it is your trying to prove isn't necessary? Do you see this as a bad thing?

 

[Adstar]

No shit! :shrug:

and Satin always feels good.

Yeah satin sheets are nice. But if our whole lives are an artificial existence and the world does not really exists then can we truly say with certainty that satin exists. :shrug:

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

If the world remained Good then Adam and Eve would still be in the garden and you and me would not exists because Adam and Eve would not have had any childeren.

Child bearing came after the fall.

I knew I could count on you.

So us not being here would have been the result of a good world? The 'be fruitful and multiply' command means the world went sour. Having children is because of sin, is that correct?

 

[lightgigantic]

Psychoticepisode

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
and those standards are?
”
How would I know what God's standards are? If He says the world is good then its good? Maybe God should have elaborated a bit more.

I just assumed that if started a thread about this good world being actually bad you might have had a clear idea what you are talking about

“
I'm not sure why you introduced omniscience as a requirement for a "good" world at this point in the discussion.
”
I see disappointment as a bad thing. You on the other hand may be happy to always be disappointed. Why experiment if you know.

If something doesn't grant disappointment, what is the requirement for experimenting and research? (assuming that one isn't a grant recipient and existing in a state of perpetual need for research funding)

After a few experiments always go as expected would you do more? You might conclude that whatever it is your trying to prove isn't necessary? Do you see this as a bad thing?

How many times do you have to experiment with putting salt on your food that 2 grains is not enough and 500 grams is too much?

Once again, a discussion about something being good or bad that remains unable to approach issues of purpose is purposeless.
:shrug:

 

[yasmin]

isn't it? Yes,yes, we all know man screwed it up. Yes, we took free will to an unexpected level. Shocked the hell out of the Creator. The same creator that said everything was good. Too bad, no guarantee.

Anyway I was just wondering how a totally good world would work. What should have happened?

I was just thinking...if God made it an evil world then by golly He got it right. That would be good, God getting it right I mean. So if you want an evil world then you need us and Satan. What the hell is Satan doing in a good world for Christ's sake? One has to wonder.

But God built a good world by His standards. He even says so in the Christian bible. I just don't know how an all good world works. No accidents, deaths, disease, poverty, drought, hate, violence. A big love-in where everybody gets along. Would we need to eat? sleep? worry about anything?

Just think how great science would be, you'd be right about everything. That brings a question to mind....would trying to find out how things work constitute a bad deed? We could still invent a gun just for target practice, we'd only need one bullet. In fact if everything was meant to be good then we would always be perfect in every endeavor. All you theists who proclaim that the world was destined for goodness please explain how it would be today.

Is good really good for us?

If we accept that whoever created us should be waaaayyyy much smarter than we are, then we shouldn't feel too surprised that we have a hard time figuring out these things.

He or she could or not have a plan for us. If he/she has no plan then we are here just randomly everything is random, this world can be destroyed at any minute, we are here at the mercy of this being. Yet if we analyze history we can see that there is a pattern of changes. I believe he or she has a plan.

Compared to what happened thousands of years ago we humans are living longer and better than ever, we have accomplished that by developing science, discipline and ethics.

There are less wars now than there were ever before. Slavery, abuse of the weak and discrimmination that were the rule in the past now they still exist, but humanity rejects them. Just 50 years ago in America black people were hanged from trees and now there is a black president elected. That is what I call evolution!! A couple of centures ago people's life expectancy was 40 years, now is more than 70.

We have not screwed up anything, we are now more aware of the problems, now we care and are concerned about the wars, abuse and our flaws. That is why things may seem worse but they are not.

Years ago there were wars brutality and abuse everywhere, but with no communication systems developed. People may not have been aware of them. Now we are aware of these problems and this will allow us to try to fix them, making the world better every day.

We have evolved, and this is the plan. There is still a long way to go, but we can do it........

 

[Lori_7]

in regards to the OP, knowledge of evil is good.

 

[Bishadi]

isn't it? Yes,yes, we all know man screwed it up. Yes, we took free will to an unexpected level. Shocked the hell out of the Creator. The same creator that said everything was good. Too bad, no guarantee.

Anyway I was just wondering how a totally good world would work. What should have happened?

Choice not being given to a species within the body.

Think of cancer; lives within us and does its own thing; killing the host.

I was just thinking...if God made it an evil world then by golly He got it right. That would be good, God getting it right I mean. So if you want an evil world then you need us and Satan. What the hell is Satan doing in a good world for Christ's sake? One has to wonder.

Who/what's a satan? That idea is what takes the responsibility from being YOURS/MINE/OURS.

Be no choice if some dude is pulling your strings. Slap the punk off your shoulder. (ie.. remove the chip and be humble to your own capabilities; be responsible for your actions)

Are you a man/women of choice or are you a mouse?

But God built a good world by His standards. He even says so in the Christian bible. I just don't know how an all good world works. No accidents, deaths, disease, poverty, drought, hate, violence.

sound boring. Nothing to learn from, nothing to chose and nothing to experience all them emotions with.

A big love-in where everybody gets along. Would we need to eat? sleep? worry about anything?

I liken the idea of man's creation, the dog, to comparison with mankind under god. Feed'em, shelter'em and give them that consistant providing and they will LOVE you unconditionally.

Mankind created its perfect subjects.

Just think how great science would be, you'd be right about everything. That brings a question to mind....would trying to find out how things work constitute a bad deed?

no!

comprehending that patching a broken leg can allow healing, just as planting at the right time offers more food; is the same as science; applying learned truths about the nature of things (learning about God/existence itself)

We could still invent a gun just for target practice, we'd only need one bullet. In fact if everything was meant to be good then we would always be perfect in every endeavor. All you theists who proclaim that the world was destined for goodness please explain how it would be today.

Is good really good for us?

If each child born tomorrow, was given an "owner's manual" from the shoot; then when inquiries on LIFE, good & bad, honesty, how it works and what is the purpose of; LIFE............... then each can have a chance at learning, developing and thereby knowing how to live that is consistent with reality, nature, life and the many renditions of God; at the same time.

Born again, would be like being awakened to reality and capable of knowing it.

(knowledge combining with experience; the objective truth combines)

Knowledge equal to reality is equal to all mankind; which can underwrite world peace.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

I just assumed that if started a thread about this good world being actually bad you might have had a clear idea what you are talking about

You assume too much. If God is a malevolent being then to Him a good world would consist of evil. Helping little old ladies across the street is frowned upon unless you allow her to get run over or rob and rape her when you get to the other side.

If God exists there is reason to suspect that He isn't 100% benevolent. In fact 0% seems to be more accurate. So here is God, admiring his handiwork after 6 days, the world is about as evil as He can make it, even making sure by dumping us in there and what else can He say except "this is good."

If something doesn't grant disappointment, what is the requirement for experimenting and research? (assuming that one isn't a grant recipient and existing in a state of perpetual need for research funding)

I was hoping for something like that. I agree, there's no need to experiment once you figure out that you can't fail. The question: is failure is a good thing? I think disappointment would be difficult to find on a good world. But I suppose on a good world people would be devoid of bad feelings, so in hindsight they won't experience it. They'll be thrilled about failure. Experimentation on a good world cannot be bad for the guy wearing the lab coat because he/she would be incapable of such a feeling. Is that Good?

Then you say this:

How many times do you have to experiment with putting salt on your food that 2 grains is not enough and 500 grams is too much?

All the more reason that knowing an experiment's outcome beforehand is a good thing. In a good world the answer is none.

I think I have a dilemma here. On one hand, a good world experimental failure won't matter to a person incapable about feeling bad about it and on the other hand there is no reason to experiment on a good world because you would already know the answer. Not sure which one is the good. I still like the latter.

In a 100% good world the scientist is persona non grata. Then again that wouldn't be very nice. Hmmm...maybe theists are on to something...heheh.

 

[SnakeLord]

If the world remained Good then Adam and Eve would still be in the garden and you and me would not exists because Adam and Eve would not have had any childeren.

And this is the world that your god wanted. It was only due to 'evil' that you're even alive. Should you not therefore be thanking evil?

 

[lightgigantic]

Psychoticepisode

Originally Posted by lightgigantic

I just assumed that if started a thread about this good world being actually bad you might have had a clear idea what you are talking about
”
You assume too much. If God is a malevolent being then to Him a good world would consist of evil. Helping little old ladies across the street is frowned upon unless you allow her to get run over or rob and rape her when you get to the other side.

My point is that unless you have a clear idea of what constitutes malevolence/benevolence, you don't have the means to apply it to anything.

If God exists there is reason to suspect that He isn't 100% benevolent.

If its assuming too much for you to know what you are talking about, there's every reason to suspect otherwise

In fact 0% seems to be more accurate.

:shrug:

So here is God, admiring his handiwork after 6 days, the world is about as evil as He can make it, even making sure by dumping us in there and what else can He say except "this is good."

If a person doesn't have the means to distinguish good from evil, its not clear why that would bother you

“
If something doesn't grant disappointment, what is the requirement for experimenting and research? (assuming that one isn't a grant recipient and existing in a state of perpetual need for research funding)
”
I was hoping for something like that. I agree, there's no need to experiment once you figure out that you can't fail.

I'm not sure why you introduce omnipotency (ie "one cannot fail") at this point in the discussion.

My question was that if something doesn't grant disappointment, what is the requirement for further research?

For instance if you are about half way through your favourite ice cream, is there a requirement for you to throw it away and experiment with something different in order to be satisfied?

The question: is failure is a good thing? I think disappointment would be difficult to find on a good world. But I suppose on a good world people would be devoid of bad feelings, so in hindsight they won't experience it. They'll be thrilled about failure. Experimentation on a good world cannot be bad for the guy wearing the lab coat because he/she would be incapable of such a feeling. Is that Good?

seriously, this reads like its from a person with dementia

Then you say this:
“
How many times do you have to experiment with putting salt on your food that 2 grains is not enough and 500 grams is too much?
”
All the more reason that knowing an experiment's outcome beforehand is a good thing. In a good world the answer is none.

given that most people would also answer none, I guess that places them in a good world (pity that the word "good" has no meaning in the discussion at this point in time)

I think I have a dilemma here. On one hand, a good world experimental failure won't matter to a person incapable about feeling bad about it and on the other hand there is no reason to experiment on a good world because you would already know the answer. Not sure which one is the good. I still like the latter.

Once again, its not clear why you introduce omnniscience into the discussion at this point ("unless I know the answer to everything, I have the opportunity to experience disappointment and this is bad")


Once again, as long as you are reluctant to address the issue of purpose (which determines so much of what we coin as good or bad), this discussion is purposeless ......

In a 100% good world the scientist is persona non grata. Then again that wouldn't be very nice. Hmmm...maybe theists are on to something...heheh.

so a good world would have open doors and let everything in just like a drainhole?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

My point is that unless you have a clear idea of what constitutes malevolence/benevolence, you don't have the means to apply it to anything.

Simplified...evil is good for malevolents, not so good for benevolents. At this stage in the game is this really necessary? Theists use this trick every time they can't explain evil in the world, as in God has a plan, you'll see. In the meantime let's exterminate 8 million people.

If its assuming too much for you to know what you are talking about, there's every reason to suspect otherwise

Yes, that is a good assumption. However it works both ways. I threw the bait out there and you're nibbling. Is it time to change lures?

If a person doesn't have the means to distinguish good from evil, its not clear why that would bother you

Exactly the reason why wars are fought. Wars bother me.

I'm not sure why you introduce omnipotency (ie "one cannot fail") at this point in the discussion.

I fear that in a perfectly good world where God is in command that experimentation may be seen as questioning Him. I guess God would decide that one. But in all honesty, in a Shangri-La world what difference would it make if I knew what gravity was, or how God did it? Who would care? Is that evil in your mind?

seriously, this reads like its from a person with dementia

Hey.... I'm moving up in the world. Thanks for the compliment.

given that most people would also answer none, I guess that places them in a good world (pity that the word "good" has no meaning in the discussion at this point in time)

That's bad in your eyes then. Take it from there and you'll figure out what good is.

so a good world would have open doors and let everything in just like a drainhole?

Unless you have a clear understanding of what's good or bad then I see no reason for that question Please define good