If religion isn't a motivator for violence...

[KennyJC]

...Would you feel confident walking around the Middle East or the Bible Belt saying how irrational their religion is?

If I said some of the things in those streets as I do here on these forums, how long would I last before being killed or injured in some way?

And this, because I stated the obvious. A persons belief in a certain religion, would motivate them to cause harm to someone who refutes it.

What if I did this in my hometown? Nobody would give a shit as there are no deeply religious views in my area.

 

[baumgarten]

Actually, I would feel safe, albeit unwelcome. Something tells me people would be offended wherever you went. You might be taken aback if I loudly and obnoxiously attacked atheism.

 

[S.A.M.]

...Would you feel confident walking around the Middle East or the Bible Belt saying how irrational their religion is?

If I said some of the things in those streets as I do here on these forums, how long would I last before being killed or injured in some way?

And this, because I stated the obvious. A persons belief in a certain religion, would motivate them to cause harm to someone who refutes it.

What if I did this in my hometown? Nobody would give a shit as there are no deeply religious views in my area.

Would you feel comfortable walking through Tel Aviv claiming the holocaust is a hoax?

Would you feel comfortable walking through Harlem, NY saying niggers have a low IQ?

Would you feel comfortable walking through the White House saying Bush is a fascist?

Would you feel comfortable walking through a prison yard saying prisoners are homosexuals?

Would you feel comfortable walking through Somalia saying Siad Barre is a mass murderer?

etc.

However you could do all this in your hometown without any adverse effects

 

[spidergoat]

I think that wouldn't be due to their religion, but to your arrogance (if you were to acutally do this). It's different on a forum where people know they are getting into a controversial subject and expect to be debated.

 

[KennyJC]

Would you feel comfortable walking through Tel Aviv claiming the holocaust is a hoax?

No, because I would be wrong, and ignorant of a tragedy.

Would you feel comfortable walking through Harlem, NY saying niggers have a low IQ?

Why compare racist taunts to irrational religion?

Would you feel comfortable walking through the White House saying Bush is a fascist?

I would feel comfortable insulting George Bush anywhere.

Would you feel comfortable walking through a prison yard saying prisoners are homosexuals?

I would not feel comfortable walking through a prison yard at all.

Would you feel comfortable walking through Somalia saying Siad Barre is a mass murderer?

No, but again, irrelevant.

samcdkey: Are we ready to admit that refuting a persons religion, even peacefully and politely will cause you a whole set of problems? Nothing else would be involved except the religion in question, yet doing this in parts of the world would cause violence. You have always said on this forum that it is not religion that causes violence but political motives. In this cause only religion would be concerned.

I think that wouldn't be due to their religion, but to your arrogance (if you were to acutally do this). It's different on a forum where people know they are getting into a controversial subject and expect to be debated.

I notice when I state that a persons religion is irrational, it's called arrogance. But when you have fliers put in your mailbox by churches it's not? Largely I would be employing the same tactics used by bible bashers, except using their tactics against them. Yet MY life would be in danger for refuting their rediculous beliefs?

What if I returned the favour of a neighbour who put a flier in my mail, trying to get me to convert, and I put a flier on atheism and stupidities of religion in their mail... would I then receive threatening behaviour? Most likely.

There is an imbalance there.

 

[baumgarten]

Why compare racist taunts to irrational religion?

This is the best example sam offered. Both involve cultural identity, which as you can imagine is both quite sensitive and subjective.

I notice when I state that a persons religion is irrational, it's called arrogance. But when you have fliers put in your mailbox by churches it's not?

Who said it isn't? It is.

Yet MY life would be in danger for refuting their rediculous beliefs?

I disagree that your life would be in danger. Your preconceived notion that theists are generally stupid and violent is based on observations of an extreme minority.

 

[KennyJC]

This is the best example sam offered. Both involve cultural identity, which as you can imagine is both quite sensitive and subjective.

Well this is why (even amongst liberals), think that refuting the Koran is racist towards arabs, when it isn't. However, since this might be somewhat true, if a person within that culture - whatever religion it may be - refutes it and openly becomes atheist in a fundamentally religious community, are they likely to be threatened by violence?

I disagree that your life would be in danger. Your preconceived notion that theists are generally stupid and violent is based on observations of an extreme minority.

Try distributing atheism fliers somewhere in Alabama.

 

[S.A.M.]

Well this is why (even amongst liberals), think that refuting the Koran is racist towards arabs, when it isn't. However, since this might be somewhat true, if a person within that culture - whatever religion it may be - refutes it and openly becomes atheist in a fundamentally religious community, are they likely to be threatened by violence?

Try distributing atheism fliers somewhere in Alabama.

You completely missed my point.

If you disrespect a person on a point which defines his identity or self-perception, whether it is race, sexuality, color, religion or nationalism, you will meet with disrespect. It is possible to have diverse views on a topic without making it a contentious issue. It is also possible to question in a way that is not seen as aggressive or threatening.

A general lack of tolerance is divisive and reflects poorly on your ability to integrate. Living in a multicultural society should encourage secularism, not defeat it.

 

[baumgarten]

Well this is why (even amongst liberals), think that refuting the Koran is racist towards arabs, when it isn't. However, since this might be somewhat true, if a person within that culture - whatever religion it may be - refutes it and openly becomes atheist in a fundamentally religious community, are they likely to be threatened by violence?

This is more a question of individual psychology. How tolerant are this person's family members of other viewpoints? Do any of them have anger management problems? Any person within a community who does not accept that community's central customs or traditions is naturally less likely to be accepted by it. Communist societies don't like capitalists in their midsts; jocks don't like to hang out with nerds. It is a factor not caused by religion but by human group dynamics.

Try distributing atheism fliers somewhere in Alabama.

I might do it as an experiment if I lived there.

 

[KennyJC]

Nevertheless samcdkey, being openly atheist in certain areas will see you being the subject of violence. You are saying you will only be the subject of violence if you are disrespectful and rude about it? Do you really think this is true? Do you really not believe that people will kill you purely because you do not share their religion?

 

[S.A.M.]

Nevertheless samcdkey, being openly atheist in certain areas will see you being the subject of violence. You are saying you will only be the subject of violence if you are disrespectful and rude about it? Do you really think this is true? Do you really not believe that people will kill you purely because you do not share their religion?

It will not happen solely for that reason; there are a lot of atheists all over the world. But if the atheist gets on a platform and starts ridiculing the religion he does not follow, what message does he convey to those who believe in it?

Similarly, take any concept. If an obviously Muslim guy (beard et al) would stand on a soapbox near ground Zero and enumerate all the things he considered wrong about America, what would be the response? What if it was a white, Caucasian man who was doing it? Would there be a difference in perception even if both of them said exactly the same things?

Of course there are extremists everywhere; but picking on one type of extremism and generalising it is rather short-sighted.

 

[spidergoat]

But when you have fliers put in your mailbox by churches it's not?
I think that's arrogant, too. I'm sure they get some angry responses, especially those people that go door to door.

I guess that any deeply held belief could arouse anger for those who deny it...

 

[S.A.M.]

I guess that any deeply held belief could arouse anger for those who deny it...

Exactly, you have got it.

 

[The Devil Inside]

for being a proud atheist, you have alot of "poor me, im an atheist" kinds of thoughts, kenny.

the subject question of this thread is faulty, and meant only for argument, not debate.

 

[KennyJC]

I guess that any deeply held belief could arouse anger for those who deny it...

What other beliefs are you talking about that cause violence in a similar way religion does?

or being a proud atheist, you have alot of "poor me, im an atheist" kinds of thoughts, kenny.

That would be true if I wasn't living in a nation hospitable to atheists these days. If I lived in a society where I could not reveal my atheism however, then poor me indeed.

the subject question of this thread is faulty, and meant only for argument, not debate.

No fault. The was directed at religious moderates who insist religion is not a source of violence.

 

[The Devil Inside]

religion isnt the source of violence. uneducated bigots are the cause of violence.
it is hardly fair to make broad sweeping statements about belief systems, regardless of what they are.

at some point, you have to respect the right of other people to believe what they like, without fear of being ridiculed. in that vein, honestly tell me how many threads on religious subjects have been made on this forum, without an atheist just popping in to berate or belittle someone for not being an atheist.
this subforum has become very lowbrow.

 

[iam]

What if I returned the favour of a neighbour who put a flier in my mail, trying to get me to convert, and I put a flier on atheism and stupidities of religion in their mail... would I then receive threatening behaviour? Most likely.

religion isnt the source of violence. uneducated bigots are the cause of violence.
it is hardly fair to make broad sweeping statements about belief systems, regardless of what they are.

at some point, you have to respect the right of other people to believe what they like, without fear of being ridiculed. in that vein, honestly tell me how many threads on religious subjects have been made on this forum, without an atheist just popping in to berate or belittle someone for not being an atheist.
this subforum has become very lowbrow.

Everyone does have a right to believe what they want. They can even form groups of likeminded. But when you take it from the private arena to the public and expect or even demand it be taken seriously then it has to withstand some scrutiny and criticism. Religion is a source of violence, violence which is arbitrarily condoned and used when it suits their purpose, but not the only one. Religion also uses coercion. They also demonize 'others'. So the religion is not really tolerant and if they are they are naive about their affiliation or being tolerant due to laws. You can't confuse one's beliefs with outward tolerance. You have to understand that their beliefs are what truly takes precedence and priority and without resistance they would practice no tolerance at all. If religion weren't so intolerant then there would be no problem. I don't see a lot of buddhists arguing their viewpoints because they don't need to. That is not an unfair generalization, thats just a fact. If one has a faith but is defending that faith in light of negative evidence,their assertions do not have to be accepted. Too many religious sell their image which is contrary to the religion which they are a part of. Thats deceitful and purposely confusing. Thats like having your right hand in the cookie jar and showing only your left playing innocent.

 

[KennyJC]

at some point, you have to respect the right of other people to believe what they like, without fear of being ridiculed.

I can't believe that statement. Sure people can believe whatever the hell they like, but not be ridiculed if those beliefs are irrational and also have a negative effect on society and the world? Why?

Relgion IS a source of violence, this is even within scripture, and for those who follow their faith without editing scripture, violence is innevitable.

 

[S.A.M.]

I can't believe that statement. Sure people can believe whatever the hell they like, but not be ridiculed if those beliefs are irrational and also have a negative effect on society and the world? Why?

And your intolerance has a positive effect on society?

Relgion IS a source of violence, this is even within scripture, and for those who follow their faith without editing scripture, violence is innevitable.

In that case, better get the ovens ready.

There are a lot of theists to eliminate.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

What other beliefs are you talking about that cause violence in a similar way religion does?

Racism i.e. the belief in the inferiority of, or danger posed by people of another race, causes much more violence! The Holocaust, ethnic cleansing, race riots, institutional racism etc.

That would be true if I wasn't living in a nation hospitable to atheists these days. If I lived in a society where I could not reveal my atheism however, then poor me indeed.

Poor you! So, have you actually been mugged by Muslims, hit by Hindu's, beaten-up by Baptists or clubbed-to-death by Catholics? Or is this just a paranoid fear you have that it could happen? My observation on this forum is that far more and worse written abuse comes from atheists directed towards theists, than the other way round! I won't name names but....

Relgion IS a source of violence, this is even within scripture, and for those who follow their faith without editing scripture, violence is innevitable.

People are the source of violence, when they get angry about something they feel passionate about! Religion is something people feel passionately about, but it is also one of the attempted cures for violence. Love thy enemy as thyself, turn the other cheek etc.