If life is found on mars...
- Thread starter Undecided
- Start date
You should really read the book first. Then you may have some answers and you will still wonder.
The Drake Equation was developed by Frank Drake in 1961 as a way to focus on the factors which determine how many intelligent, communicating civilizations there are in our galaxy. The Drake Equation is:
N = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL
The equation can really be looked at as a number of questions:
N* represents the number of stars in the Milky Way Galaxy
Question: How many stars are in the Milky Way Galaxy?
Answer: Current estimates are 100 billion.
fp is the fraction of stars that have planets around them
Question: What percentage of stars have planetary systems?
Answer: Current estimates range from 20% to 50%.
ne is the number of planets per star that are capable of sustaining life
Question: For each star that does have a planetary system, how many planets are capable of sustaining life?
Answer: Current estimates range from 1 to 5.
fl is the fraction of planets in ne where life evolves
Question: On what percentage of the planets that are capable of sustaining life does life actually evolve?
Answer: Current estimates range from 100% (where life can evolve it will) down to close to 0%.
fi is the fraction of fl where intelligent life evolves
Question: On the planets where life does evolve, what percentage evolves intelligent life?
Answer: Estimates range from 100% (intelligence is such a survival advantage that it will certainly evolve) down to near 0%.
fc is the fraction of fi that communicate
Question: What percentage of intelligent races have the means and the desire to communicate?
Answer: 10% to 20%
fL is fraction of the planet's life during which the communicating civilizations live
Question: For each civilization that does communicate, for what fraction of the planet's life does the civilization survive?
Answer: This is the toughest of the questions. If we take Earth as an example, the expected lifetime of our Sun and the Earth is roughly 10 billion years. So far we've been communicating with radio waves for less than 100 years. How long will our civilization survive? Will we destroy ourselves in a few years like some predict or will we overcome our problems and survive for millennia? If we were destroyed tomorrow the answer to this question would be 1/100,000,000th. If we survive for 10,000 years the answer will be 1/1,000,000th.
When all of these variables are multiplied together when come up with:
N, the number of communicating civilizations in the galaxy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The real value of the Drake Equation is not in the answer itself, but the questions that are prompted when attempting to come up with an answer. Obviously there is a tremendous amount of guess work involved when filling in the variables. As we learn more from astronomy, biology, and other sciences, we'll be able to better estimate the answers to the above questions. Many of these questions will be addressed in depth in future issues of Enigma.
Ino collected from SETI institute.
N = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL
The equation can really be looked at as a number of questions:
N* represents the number of stars in the Milky Way Galaxy
Question: How many stars are in the Milky Way Galaxy?
Answer: Current estimates are 100 billion.
fp is the fraction of stars that have planets around them
Question: What percentage of stars have planetary systems?
Answer: Current estimates range from 20% to 50%.
ne is the number of planets per star that are capable of sustaining life
Question: For each star that does have a planetary system, how many planets are capable of sustaining life?
Answer: Current estimates range from 1 to 5.
fl is the fraction of planets in ne where life evolves
Question: On what percentage of the planets that are capable of sustaining life does life actually evolve?
Answer: Current estimates range from 100% (where life can evolve it will) down to close to 0%.
fi is the fraction of fl where intelligent life evolves
Question: On the planets where life does evolve, what percentage evolves intelligent life?
Answer: Estimates range from 100% (intelligence is such a survival advantage that it will certainly evolve) down to near 0%.
fc is the fraction of fi that communicate
Question: What percentage of intelligent races have the means and the desire to communicate?
Answer: 10% to 20%
fL is fraction of the planet's life during which the communicating civilizations live
Question: For each civilization that does communicate, for what fraction of the planet's life does the civilization survive?
Answer: This is the toughest of the questions. If we take Earth as an example, the expected lifetime of our Sun and the Earth is roughly 10 billion years. So far we've been communicating with radio waves for less than 100 years. How long will our civilization survive? Will we destroy ourselves in a few years like some predict or will we overcome our problems and survive for millennia? If we were destroyed tomorrow the answer to this question would be 1/100,000,000th. If we survive for 10,000 years the answer will be 1/1,000,000th.
When all of these variables are multiplied together when come up with:
N, the number of communicating civilizations in the galaxy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The real value of the Drake Equation is not in the answer itself, but the questions that are prompted when attempting to come up with an answer. Obviously there is a tremendous amount of guess work involved when filling in the variables. As we learn more from astronomy, biology, and other sciences, we'll be able to better estimate the answers to the above questions. Many of these questions will be addressed in depth in future issues of Enigma.
Ino collected from SETI institute.
oh golly, that is a tuff one, just don't mention all the ancient church paintings of Jesus with flying saucers in them. And for god’s sake don't mention that what separated Elijah and Elisha reads like a landing craft coming and going either. You will really ruffle some angel’s feathers if you mention that there are several races of them, and not one of them are indigenous to earth. Hmmm now what was the question?
Read the book for what IT says, not what you want it to say, or have been told it says. God, what a gullible race. (try some word searches, make the information your own)
1. Get a bible
2. Read it
The only advice I will give is to say read the NT first, then start at the last book of the OT and read them till you get to Genesis
2. Read it
The only advice I will give is to say read the NT first, then start at the last book of the OT and read them till you get to Genesis
Chains: Go back to your mars conspiracies.
Anyway, I will answer the question:
One of the main implications for religion would be the effect on anthropocentrism. Religion says that life is the most important thing on earth. Earth is the only place where life is, that is what makes earth the most important. It will be similar to the effect of Copernicus and Galileo's discoveries about the solar system and the universe. The earth is not the center of the universe. So, the church then claims humans are the most important life form in the universe, because they don't know of others.
So, if water and/or microbes are found on Mars, it means that life wasn't created just on earth, like the bible and so many other religious texts say.
Of course, they will then change their beliefs, like people do, and say that the bible does not say anything about other planets having life... kind of like how they changed the interpretation of 7 days to mean "each day could be millions of years" Pure bullshit.
Anyway, I will answer the question:
One of the main implications for religion would be the effect on anthropocentrism. Religion says that life is the most important thing on earth. Earth is the only place where life is, that is what makes earth the most important. It will be similar to the effect of Copernicus and Galileo's discoveries about the solar system and the universe. The earth is not the center of the universe. So, the church then claims humans are the most important life form in the universe, because they don't know of others.
So, if water and/or microbes are found on Mars, it means that life wasn't created just on earth, like the bible and so many other religious texts say.
Of course, they will then change their beliefs, like people do, and say that the bible does not say anything about other planets having life... kind of like how they changed the interpretation of 7 days to mean "each day could be millions of years" Pure bullshit.
But could it be that if we do find life on Mars, that we God could possibly not know everything in his own universe? I mean I am finding difficult to believe that God, wouldn't know of such a inconsistency. This is only lending proof to the idea that the Old Testament was written by man, and not the word of God, or if it the word of God, he then either lied, or doesn't know. Or am I wrong?
I have been waiting for this pure line of lies and twisted statements from you Ellimist. If ones do not read the bible then they would have no way to refute you. Yet it is wrote that there are many other races of intelligent beings in this created universe of many billions of galaxies. Who applauded when mankind was created. Nobody changed anything you twister of words. Seven thousand years for a creative day, and I gave the logic and reason of it. The race of mankind is the only race of intelligent life given the very qualities of our creator. That’s why some other beings were jealous of us and demanded we be tested of our integrity. Test is over. Game is up. Knowledge is a very powerful thing. Except when what you know, isn’t so. Deception breeds confusion, confusion breeds insanity, truth heals.
Where we will have a problem is if we find humans on Mars. The Bible mentions angels and cherubs, and God is definitely not described as being native to earth - therefore they are all extra-terrestial. The Bible even mentions some terrestial beings, like the Nephilim or giants, who are only known to us through myths.Undecided said:
Finding evidence of such life will only prove that we were too narrow-minded to believe in them. It won't prove that God didn't know about them, or didn't create them, just that we certainly didn't.
There is more evidence of God in the world than of any extraterrestial life, yet belief in aliens is seen as far more logical than belief in a creator. The only reason for this is that we think we will be able to understand life - we presume if we find life it will be like us. Talk about anthropomorphism... which, PS, is a good description of the Bible. Yes, Genesis only describes humans being created - man and woman. But it also says angels and celestial bodies were created, and you know how much relevance that fact has had to your life. Zero. The Bible intends to address the human condition. It wasn't intended to teach us everything we didn't know along with everything God knows. That was what got us into trouble in the first place.
Nods and smiles to Jenyar
I don’t understand what the big deal is about other life else where in our universe. IF you had read the BOOK then you would KNOW that angels (messengers) are and were not from earth, ergo not terrestrial. What is the big deal about this, what is so hard with this entire line of reasoning? Why would people panic if a bunch of angels showed up in the sky above their country (other than the warnings in the bible)?
I don’t understand what the big deal is about other life else where in our universe. IF you had read the BOOK then you would KNOW that angels (messengers) are and were not from earth, ergo not terrestrial. What is the big deal about this, what is so hard with this entire line of reasoning? Why would people panic if a bunch of angels showed up in the sky above their country (other than the warnings in the bible)?
I would agree with Jenyar on this, but I would be betraying my instinct! 
I don't agree that there is any evidence for God on Earth, because if there was, we would all believe. I don't agree that the Bible's purpose was to adress the human condition, because if that were so, no mention of anything other than the human condition would be in it. Yet, there is. There is Genesis, and the attempt to explain how Earth and the Universe came to be. It even states that everything in our Universe was there so Earth could be. If that's so, what would the purpose of life outside Earth be?
What bothers me is how it falls short of saying that these "celestial bodies" are actually planets, but it does mention them. It mentions stars, yet doesn't mention that our Sun happens to be one of them. Matter of fact, it talks about the Sun as a seperate entity from the stars, as if it was this special thing put in place for us. While, at our last estime, there are 100 billion suns in our Universe. So, that said, it appears to me as if the Bible makes a clear attmept to explain things outside our human condition, and it fails miserably at it.
It just looks as if God was revealing all in his little book, and he appeared quite ignorant to the workings of the Universe while doing it.
If we find life on Mars, or any planet, I think it will be plenty proof that the God's of today's prominent religions is bunk.
JD
I don't agree that there is any evidence for God on Earth, because if there was, we would all believe. I don't agree that the Bible's purpose was to adress the human condition, because if that were so, no mention of anything other than the human condition would be in it. Yet, there is. There is Genesis, and the attempt to explain how Earth and the Universe came to be. It even states that everything in our Universe was there so Earth could be. If that's so, what would the purpose of life outside Earth be?
What bothers me is how it falls short of saying that these "celestial bodies" are actually planets, but it does mention them. It mentions stars, yet doesn't mention that our Sun happens to be one of them. Matter of fact, it talks about the Sun as a seperate entity from the stars, as if it was this special thing put in place for us. While, at our last estime, there are 100 billion suns in our Universe. So, that said, it appears to me as if the Bible makes a clear attmept to explain things outside our human condition, and it fails miserably at it.
It just looks as if God was revealing all in his little book, and he appeared quite ignorant to the workings of the Universe while doing it.
If we find life on Mars, or any planet, I think it will be plenty proof that the God's of today's prominent religions is bunk.
JD
Undecided said:If life is found on Mars, wouldn't that essentially make the creation story just that a story? I know the catholic church treats it as such...I am wondering.
There is already scientific evidence and theory out there that makes Genesis just a story. Hence I would like to predict that finding life on mars will not change the attitude of current believers at all. They already ignore matters that do not go along with their believes. Why would this be different in the future?
KNOW that angels (messengers) are and were not from earth, ergo not terrestrial.
This is irrelevant, because the Angels weren't on a planet to begin with either. If actual living organisms are found on the face of Mars, then how can we explain those terrestrial beings? I am not buying this faulty logic of well Angels, and Giants. They were intended for Earth not Mars, there is something seriously faulty with all this logic.
This is irrelevant, because the Angels weren't on a planet to begin with either. If actual living organisms are found on the face of Mars, then how can we explain those terrestrial beings? I am not buying this faulty logic of well Angels, and Giants. They were intended for Earth not Mars, there is something seriously faulty with all this logic.
If the scientific evidence you refer to spuriousmonkey is the evolution of man from apes, your entirely wrong. There is no scientific evidence, the scientist cannot make a connection, there are too many missing links in their research. To top it off, this evolution crap is taught to my kids in school as true, without the supportive evidence.
No. The Drake equation is no better than baseless religion. You should change "tremendous amount of guess work", to "complete guess work". In short the answer can be whatever you want it to be, from billions of billions to zero. I'd like to use a few quotes that have relevance to this specific issue, and the Drake equation:
I would agree. Much that I'm a man of science, and truth over personal mental comfort, I would have to agree as to the worthlessness of the Drake equation. We can use pretty much any of the equation parts:
This can only be guessed, or in short: made up. The same can be said of the rest of it.
What qualities are those exactly? And what evidence to you have to support this claim?
Sounds like they're just the same as we are. We are jealous beings are we not? And don't worry it's nothing to be ashamed of... god himself suffers from this very same affliction:
Exodus 34:14 "Do not worship any other god, for the lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous god."
Truth is only truth when it can be proven to be true. Can you prove any of the verbal garbage you have written? If so, I eagerly wait to see it.
You're somewhat missing the point. We're not talking about cherubs and angels, we're talking about a mere microbe. Of course the religious 'world' will have their own safeguards and dismissals regarding any findings of life, but the question could still be asked as to why god put a microbe on Mars, if and when any such form of life is found. Then further to that, we have questions that would arrive from dna comparions etc. Don't start waffling on about angels, cherubim and nephilim - they're inconsequential to the point.
Oh really? Such as? Whenever you're ready to compare notes, let me know.
No scientific evidence? That's a harsh statement to make, and somewhat fallacious. It's not a concrete fact, and that's why science is so great.. it doesn't claim something to be true unless it can be proved to be so. It will, in these instances, refer to things as a "theory", "hypothesis" etc, whereas I've yet to hear anyone say "christian theory". Through all of that, science still has more "evidence" to suggest we came from apes, than evidence you have to suggest we came from Adam and Eve thnx to a big invisible sky daddy.
Are you referring to evolution fact or evolution theory?
JDawg said:I would agree with Jenyar on this, but I would be betraying my instinct!
----------
M*W: JDawg, I agree with you on this, and I don't feel that I am betraying my instinct.
----------
JDawg: I don't agree that there is any evidence for God on Earth, because if there was, we would all believe.
----------
M*W: Yes, this is unfortunate. However, I believe I see evidence for a "Creator Spirit" in all of Earth's creation. I suppose in this case it is "in the eye of the beholder." I also question if there's a God then why don't we all believe the same thing? It's a spiritual dilemma. Perhaps our spirit has nothing at all to do with a "God." Perhaps the reason there is so much discrepancy in our HUMAN belief systems is that we can't "see" the power of "God, our Creator," because we would need one huge mirror to see God's image in humanity. This would be so much easier if we could just see God's image in each other, but it doesn't work that way because religions were created to control humanity, not deify it.
----------
JDawg: I don't agree that the Bible's purpose was to adress the human condition, because if that were so, no mention of anything other than the human condition would be in it. Yet, there is. There is Genesis, and the attempt to explain how Earth and the Universe came to be. It even states that everything in our Universe was there so Earth could be. If that's so, what would the purpose of life outside Earth be?
----------
M*W: We are just beginning to tap into the knowledge of the purpose of life beyond Earth. Yet, we are just a small part of the big universe and there is still interconnectedness with ALL creation. As we become more aware of what exists beyond us, perhaps our perception of God will change. I believe the more we learn about existence beyond our rock, the more we will begin to believe in an entirely different concept of our creator. Who knows? Our creator may be us, and we may come to realize that no savior was ever needed!
----------
JDawg: What bothers me is how it falls short of saying that these "celestial bodies" are actually planets, but it does mention them. It mentions stars, yet doesn't mention that our Sun happens to be one of them. Matter of fact, it talks about the Sun as a seperate entity from the stars, as if it was this special thing put in place for us. While, at our last estime, there are 100 billion suns in our Universe. So, that said, it appears to me as if the Bible makes a clear attmept to explain things outside our human condition, and it fails miserably at it.
----------
M*W: The Bible is lacking, indeed. Unfortunately, unless we are proficient in Hebrew, or had the Torah and Tanakh interpreted for us by a Rabbi, there is no way to really understand what is meant. I would never accept an interpretation of the Torah and Tanakh by anyone other than a Hebrew scholar. From what I've learned from Rabbis' teachings, Judaism is more in tune with the spiritual matters of the universe than Christians, and from what I've learned from Muslim scholars, Islam is more in tune with the creation of mankind than Judaism or Christianity.
----------
JDawg: It just looks as if God was revealing all in his little book, and he appeared quite ignorant to the workings of the Universe while doing it.
----------
M*W: One would need to go back to the early Sumerian legends to acquire a better understanding of the Torah. I question just how much of the Torah is "God's" contribution and how much is man's intuition.
----------
JDawg: If we find life on Mars, or any planet, I think it will be plenty proof that the God's of today's prominent religions is bunk.
----------
M*W: I agree with you, JDawg. The closer we get to finding life beyond our rock, the closer we will be to recognizing God has been here all along. Our name is Adam, the Earthling, and we are STILL in Paradise.