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if jesus and god were fabrications
- Thread starter fahrenheit 451
- Start date
Hi Cris,
Sorry it has taken me a little time to respond.
Jesus said "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
Jesus was doing the Father's will. Jesus said "Not my will be done, but your will be done" in prayer to His Father. It wa an agreement between the Father and the Son, the Son submitting to His Fathers will because God so loved the world.
The importance of Jesus' death and ressurection was to demonstrate to man that God had power over Life and death and since only God could raise the dead, it showed that God Himself approved of Jesus. This should be the greatest signal to us that Jesus really is "The Way, The Truth and The Life"
Need I remind you of Jesus' suffering? Need I remind you of the tears that were wept by His tomb? Jesus remained dead for 3 days during which time many mourned. Had Jesus stayed dead then God and the Law would be false since Jesus said in order to obtain eternal life one must "Love God with his whole being and love your neighbour as yourself." Jesus was the fulfillment of this law and therefore although He did give up His life (He was just a man) even unto death by crucifixion, death could not keep Him because He was sinless in the eyes of God. Jesus did give up His sovereignty else why would He have said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
Jesus certainly did lose His life.
Christians do not say that God screwed up. Christians say that God, because He loves us, gives us free will but He does not do that without setting some boundaries first (as any good father does to ensure their child stays out of danger).
The boundaries he set were "Everything is yours, but do not eat from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. If you even touch it you will die the same day"
Now without that forbidden fruit, we have no free will. We become like animals caged in a zoo with no choice but to be there since we did not create ourselves. However with the forbidden fruit we have choice. To live and accept the free gift of life or to reject God's free gift and do that which he told us not to do. He told us not to do it because He knew that we would benefit greatly from the life He had chosen for us because He wanted us to experience love such as they love He had for His own Son. He wanted us to call Him Father.
But the serpent was crafty and was no doubt Jealous of Adam and Eve because God never called any serpent His son. So the serpent tricked Eve into going against God's will for our lives. The serpent deceived Eve into thinking that God was preventing them from doing something good. That God didn't really love them at all but was trying to keep all the glory for Himself. This was how the serpent felt that God had treated him incidentally for the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. The serpent, despite being a truly beautiful mysterious creature was jealous of that which was made in God's own image. The serpent could not bear to think of himself as lower than Adam and Eve. Being crafty, the serpent tempted Eve to sin against God. Eve did not resist that temptation and did indeed eat from the forbidden tree. Had the serpent accepted his role in God's creation, Eve would not have sinned. But the fact was she did and God could not deny the fact that her actions were disobedient since He had given a command not to eat from the tree. In other words it shouldnot have mattered what anything else said, His word should have been good enough for her. The consequences of sin is death i.e. Bye Bye God, thanks for your free gift but I do not want to listen to you. That was Eve's choice independantly of whether she was tempted / tricked or whatever. But God is just and He said of the serpent "You will bite man's heel but he will crush your head"
Now we die. This is what is meant by having our heel bitten. When a deadly snake bites your heel it is likely that you will die. Jesus was the antidote. Jesus crushed that serpents head by becoming flesh like us through the second Eve i.e. The Virgin Mary. Jesus was put to death but death could not keep Him. He crushed the head of the enemy by his obedience to God and gave us His body and His blood so that the flesh we have and the life we have (for the life is in the blood) is new life, free from the curse of everlasting death. God knows we were tricked and has provided a way back for us.
Jesus said "Whosoever believes in me will not perish but will receive eternal life"
Our desire for The Life is our desire for Jesus' love for God is love. Which one among us would choose to be cut off from God for ever if given a voting slip? This is why we say "Choose Jesus. Choose Life". We do not want anyone to be lost. This is why we speak of the Good News, the message of Jesus. God decalres us 'Not Guilty' the very moment we accept Jesus because we have made our choice independantly of Eve's choice. The old has gone, the new has come. This is why we worship Jesus because His great suffering paid the price that the Law required for us not to have to suffer the full consequences of the acts of our sinful flesh which would be to be extinguished forever (the lake of fire). We do not have to do anything except believe that Jesus has already paid the price and has overcome the god of this age, the deceiver who has deceived from the very beginning.
Hopefully my last response explains this question.
Your death, your everlasting death is extremely relevant to God. This is why He paid a terrible price that you may have everlasting life with God your Creator, your Father who loves you, He who stretched out His arms and died so that you may believe. He who said "This is my body, this is my blood". It was for you that Jesus died, that you may love Him and want to be with Him forever. Before He ascended to Heaven He promised that when He was gone the Holy Spirit would be sent to all who called upon His name. The Holy Spirit helps renew our minds that we have the minds of Christ. I cannot tell you what a blessing this is. I pray that you see the truth in my words and are given understanding that you might believe.
God bless
c20
Sorry it has taken me a little time to respond.
Cris said:C20,
Why couldn’t the father have done that himself?
Jesus said "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
Jesus was doing the Father's will. Jesus said "Not my will be done, but your will be done" in prayer to His Father. It wa an agreement between the Father and the Son, the Son submitting to His Fathers will because God so loved the world.
Cris said:So he isn’t dead then so his apparent death wasn’t particularly important then, right? So why make a fuss about it?
The importance of Jesus' death and ressurection was to demonstrate to man that God had power over Life and death and since only God could raise the dead, it showed that God Himself approved of Jesus. This should be the greatest signal to us that Jesus really is "The Way, The Truth and The Life"
Cris said:The only good reason for making an issue of death is that it is a permanent loss – in this case nothing was lost and therefore there is no worthwhile issue. The sacrifice of a loved son by a god only has real impact if that son were lost forever – now that would be a sacrifice. As it is your god appears to have not given up or lost anything.
Need I remind you of Jesus' suffering? Need I remind you of the tears that were wept by His tomb? Jesus remained dead for 3 days during which time many mourned. Had Jesus stayed dead then God and the Law would be false since Jesus said in order to obtain eternal life one must "Love God with his whole being and love your neighbour as yourself." Jesus was the fulfillment of this law and therefore although He did give up His life (He was just a man) even unto death by crucifixion, death could not keep Him because He was sinless in the eyes of God. Jesus did give up His sovereignty else why would He have said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
Jesus certainly did lose His life.
Cris said:Isn’t that slavery? Why would that ever be considered a good thing?
For example?
According to the Christian myth God screwed up his original design and now has to have his son killed to correct his mistake – in the meantime we have had to suffer for his mess. It could be seen as good news that he is finally getting his act together, but it is also an admission that he was incompetent in the beginning.
Christians do not say that God screwed up. Christians say that God, because He loves us, gives us free will but He does not do that without setting some boundaries first (as any good father does to ensure their child stays out of danger).
The boundaries he set were "Everything is yours, but do not eat from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. If you even touch it you will die the same day"
Now without that forbidden fruit, we have no free will. We become like animals caged in a zoo with no choice but to be there since we did not create ourselves. However with the forbidden fruit we have choice. To live and accept the free gift of life or to reject God's free gift and do that which he told us not to do. He told us not to do it because He knew that we would benefit greatly from the life He had chosen for us because He wanted us to experience love such as they love He had for His own Son. He wanted us to call Him Father.
But the serpent was crafty and was no doubt Jealous of Adam and Eve because God never called any serpent His son. So the serpent tricked Eve into going against God's will for our lives. The serpent deceived Eve into thinking that God was preventing them from doing something good. That God didn't really love them at all but was trying to keep all the glory for Himself. This was how the serpent felt that God had treated him incidentally for the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. The serpent, despite being a truly beautiful mysterious creature was jealous of that which was made in God's own image. The serpent could not bear to think of himself as lower than Adam and Eve. Being crafty, the serpent tempted Eve to sin against God. Eve did not resist that temptation and did indeed eat from the forbidden tree. Had the serpent accepted his role in God's creation, Eve would not have sinned. But the fact was she did and God could not deny the fact that her actions were disobedient since He had given a command not to eat from the tree. In other words it shouldnot have mattered what anything else said, His word should have been good enough for her. The consequences of sin is death i.e. Bye Bye God, thanks for your free gift but I do not want to listen to you. That was Eve's choice independantly of whether she was tempted / tricked or whatever. But God is just and He said of the serpent "You will bite man's heel but he will crush your head"
Now we die. This is what is meant by having our heel bitten. When a deadly snake bites your heel it is likely that you will die. Jesus was the antidote. Jesus crushed that serpents head by becoming flesh like us through the second Eve i.e. The Virgin Mary. Jesus was put to death but death could not keep Him. He crushed the head of the enemy by his obedience to God and gave us His body and His blood so that the flesh we have and the life we have (for the life is in the blood) is new life, free from the curse of everlasting death. God knows we were tricked and has provided a way back for us.
Jesus said "Whosoever believes in me will not perish but will receive eternal life"
Our desire for The Life is our desire for Jesus' love for God is love. Which one among us would choose to be cut off from God for ever if given a voting slip? This is why we say "Choose Jesus. Choose Life". We do not want anyone to be lost. This is why we speak of the Good News, the message of Jesus. God decalres us 'Not Guilty' the very moment we accept Jesus because we have made our choice independantly of Eve's choice. The old has gone, the new has come. This is why we worship Jesus because His great suffering paid the price that the Law required for us not to have to suffer the full consequences of the acts of our sinful flesh which would be to be extinguished forever (the lake of fire). We do not have to do anything except believe that Jesus has already paid the price and has overcome the god of this age, the deceiver who has deceived from the very beginning.
Cris said:Why is it good? He is meant to be omniscient so this would be his intention from the beginning, right? So if death couldn’t keep him then doesn’t that show that death is not in the least a big issue, so again why make a fuss about killing a god that can’t be killed?
Hopefully my last response explains this question.
Cris said:Death is irrelevant to a god who has the power of creation and life and death.
Christianity makes no sense.
Your death, your everlasting death is extremely relevant to God. This is why He paid a terrible price that you may have everlasting life with God your Creator, your Father who loves you, He who stretched out His arms and died so that you may believe. He who said "This is my body, this is my blood". It was for you that Jesus died, that you may love Him and want to be with Him forever. Before He ascended to Heaven He promised that when He was gone the Holy Spirit would be sent to all who called upon His name. The Holy Spirit helps renew our minds that we have the minds of Christ. I cannot tell you what a blessing this is. I pray that you see the truth in my words and are given understanding that you might believe.
God bless
c20
I think you'll find, the your hell will freeze over, before you get cris to convert.c20 said:Holy Spirit would be sent to all who called upon His name. The Holy Spirit helps renew our minds that we have the minds of Christ. I cannot tell you what a blessing this is. I pray that you see the truth in my words and are given understanding that you might believe.
or any free thinker, for that matter.
Red Devil said:I have the "mind of Christ" ? So I am a left wing radical agitator? Hmmm, I have been voting wrong all these years!
Funny but I think you will find that a personal faith in the living God has very little to do with politics.
peace
c20
theres no politics in a dictatorship is there, it's case of you got me, and you better like it or else.
the preacher said:theres no politics in a dictatorship is there, it's case of you got me, and you better like it or else.
You can go your own way The Preacher. I have a feeling you will anyway. Good luck to you.
c20
I am glad to see that you are giving up on your preaching c20. see how worthless it is when the recipient is not interested. well done, it is nice to see.
mustafhakofi said:I am glad to see that you are giving up on your preaching c20. see how worthless it is when the recipient is not interested. well done, it is nice to see.
I am not giving up my right to free speech anymore than you would. I would urge The preacher to use the ignore button as he is not interested in the Christian faith. Seems the simplest solution and I respect his choice.
peace
c20
the preacher said:theres no politics in a dictatorship is there, it's case of you got me, and you better like it or else.
Not reading what I am saying. I am saying Jesus was a left wing radical not a religious cult figure. He would turn in his grave, wherever it IS, if he knew what has happened over the eons in his "name". Massacres, tortures, inquisitions, wars, death by the billions. Oh yes, well pleased.
edit: Just had a thought, he HAS returned!!! Just changed his name to Osama.