if jesus and god were fabrications

[fahrenheit 451]

If one could prove to you incontrovertibly that Jesus and God were all human fabrications would you still believe? And why?


If you say yes. Then you are not concerned with the truth, you simply WANT to believe;

and if you WANT to believe, indeed, there is nothing anyone can tell you.

 

[§outh§tar]

check the user title ^^


P.S. Fox Mulder agrees. That's all I can tell you.

 

[c20H25N3o]

A better question would be what if they were not? What if Jesus did actually come as a human being? What if He submitted even unto death by crucifixion because His Father, God Almighty willed it so for our sakes. What if Jesus was a human sin offering for us so that we might be restored back to God, Our Father, Our Maker? What if we rejected that offering saying to ourselves "Jesus was not good". What of us then? What if we have taken the gift and told the giver to f*ck off? What if we took the gift and then said "Thanks for bringing it along but I'm afraid you were never invited to the party?"
What if the Giver then decided to throw a party? Would you be invited to that party? Would you be suprised if you did not get an invitation? Would you have the right to complain if you were not invited to His party? Of course not.
You better be thankful for that Gift God's son gave you. You better invite Him in else He won't invite you to His birthday party! Never mind the starving Africans, Do you know it's Christmas? Hypocrites who exchange gifts at Christmas but forget the blood of He that pays for all parties!
How can man not look up and be humbled? How can man watch the butterfly emerge from the cocoon and not stand in awe and wonderment? How can man question the Eternal God, the maker of the heavens and the earth? How can you refuse the free gift of eternal life? How can you see the cucified Christ and not feel shame for being a part of this world? How can you accuse God of commiting acts of evil when He just seperates the chaff from the wheat? How can you deny God's unending patience with you that refuses to believe? How can you deny the Holy Book that is authorised by the Vatican in Rome? How can you refuse to turn and just ask for the Holy Spirit of whom we speak? How can you continue in your existence believing that you will be cut off from all whom you love? How can you do these things? Do you not love God? Do you not see that He sent His only Son into the world so that you might know the truth? His Son who was crucified under Pontius Pilate? God's Son!
And what does Jesus ask of you???? That you love God with your whole being and love your neighbour as yourself! I am sick of hearing the blasphemies and the utterances of stupidity! I am glad God cuts off the unrepentant and I am glad God restores the repentant. I am pleased that God reveals His wisdom to the little children who trust in Him. Start taking this message seriously. You ignore it at your own peril. What benefit is it to me to say these things to you? What benefit is it to me to stand here and take your ridicule and mockery? What benefit is it to me? Patience. Patience is the benefit to me because I see that God is patient with you. Repent and be saved, it is the only way. This is the message of the Christian faith. Those who are perishing will not understand these words because they never believed even from the beginning.
But for those who have ears to hear, repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. Jesus saves.

peace

c20

 

[§outh§tar]

I am sick of hearing the blasphemies and the utterances of stupidity!

We can all agree with the latter. Now why don't you try to respond with something more relevant to the topic?

 

[c20H25N3o]

We can all agree with the latter. Now why don't you try to respond with something more relevant to the topic?

Ok, so I am told that Jesus and God were all human fabrications.

Well I would say to the person that told me that the following ...

Why would a man glorify the man Jesus? Why was this man that they were glorifying in their writing, giving ALL the glory to God? Why were they doing this?

Now supposing the man told me that it was a clever ploy to frighten the weak into paying taxes, I would say "Why then did Jesus not speak against paying taxes?"

Now supposing the man told me it was actually a ploy to increase their own wealth through publication, I would say "Why then did the character in their make believe story speak against storing treasures up for yourself here on earth?

Now supposing the man told me it was so that the Government could pass laws in the Name of God, using these forged scriptures to frighten the masses, I would say what can they hope to benefit? Wealth, power? Why then did the main character in their fabrication say that the greatest among you must be like the least?

In short I would have to say that whoever wrote this book for their own purposes, shot themselves in the foot, because whatever purpose they did it for, the main character actually exposed their own hypocrisy!

This is how I reason.

So in short, there would be no good reason to fabricate the story of Jesus without exposing your own hypocrisy. So it must be real, and the only people who benefit from these teachings are us who follow them. Those who will receive eternal life as promised.

Now repent and believe! << Do you see any selfish motives here?

peace

c20

 

[fahrenheit 451]

so simply put c20, you would believe regardless, even with them being proved as fabrications. would you agree, yes or no would suffice thank you.

 

[c20H25N3o]

If I say yes you will say I am deceived. If I say no, it will encourage you to twist the word of God even more. So I will remain silent and hope you see the folly of what you are doing. I have already explained why they cannot be fabrications. Perhaps you would like to comment on what I have said rather than trying to force a yes or no out of me.

peace

c20

 

[fahrenheit 451]

if you say yes then I say That you are not concerned with the truth, you simply WANT to believe.
if you say no. then I would congratulate on seeing the light.

however you have'nt explained, I would like to see this explanation that proves it.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Tell me the motive for fabrication. I will need to see this before I entertain this notion with an open mind.

Thanks

c20

 

[Medicine*Woman]

c20H25N3o: How can you deny the Holy Book that is authorised by the Vatican in Rome?
*************
M*W: This is the same church who suppressed the truth about Jesus. This church is the false church of Paul.
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c20: His Son who was crucified under Pontius Pilate?
*************
M*W: It sounds like you need to do some extrabiblical research on Pontius Pilate.
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c20: I am sick of hearing the blasphemies and the utterances of stupidity!
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M*W: Then why the hell are you here? You know very well that this is NOT a christian forum!
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c20: I am glad God cuts off the unrepentant and I am glad God restores the repentant.
M*W: You are one judgmental bastard!
*************
c20: I am pleased that God reveals His wisdom to the little children who trust in Him.
*************
M*W: Little children are innocent and naive. What do they know? They're brainwashed by their ignorant parents!
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c20: Start taking this message seriously. You ignore it at your own peril.
*************
M*W: You're preaching to us in a threatening manner. You can't even prove what you say to be true.
*************
c20: What benefit is it to me to say these things to you?
*************
M*W: It builds up your ego which is called 'pride.'
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c20: What benefit is it to me to stand here and take your ridicule and mockery?
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M*W: Because you ASK FOR IT!
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c20: This is the message of the Christian faith. Those who are perishing will not understand these words because they never believed even from the beginning.
*************
M*W: Then you should only address the christians on the forum, but you're spitting your venom at the atheists. You're judging us gin!
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c20: But for those who have ears to hear, repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
*************
M*W: In L'Evangile de Marie: Myriam de Magdala, by Albin Michel, 1997, translated by Jean-Yves LeLoup into English, it was MM who was speaking to the disciples and telling them, "those who have ears, let them hear." This was supposed to be a direct quote from what Jesus said to his disciples during his lifetime, telling his disciples to pay attention to what Mary has to say. Of course, they were disgruntled about this, especially when Mary continued to tell them about Jesus' teachings. They resented that. The disciples didn't know Jesus as intimately as MM did, and they resented her for her knowledge. It was MM who said, "for those who have ears, let them hear, but that quote was directed ONLY to the disciples.
*************
c20: Jesus saves.
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M*W: Yes he does! And at today's prices -- that's a miracle!

 

[c20H25N3o]

M*W, you exalt MM even above Jesus which is evidently foolish given that she calls Him Lord. You would like to think MM was God but she is not. She was not born of a virgin but rather Jesus gave her life and hope in God His Father. She loved Jesus as did Paul. Neither Jesus nor Mary nor Paul are greater than Our Father. And Our Father sent Jesus into the world to be the light of the world that men could walk by. Paul proclaims the Good News throughout His apostleship as does Peter. MM has a very blessed role in the Kingdom I will grant you but to deny Paul is again to cause division among those who call Jesus Christ 'Lord'. This is not good. What are your motives for doing so?

peace

c20

 

[Medicine*Woman]

c20H25N3o: M*W, you exalt MM even above Jesus which is evidently foolish given that she calls Him Lord.
*************
M*W: In those days, that is what a wife called her husband -- the master of the house is called 'lord.'
*************
c20: You would like to think MM was God but she is not.
*************
M*W: Obviously, you have done no reading on Jesus' relationship with MM, so you're not knowledgeable enough to comment.
*************
c20: She was not born of a virgin but rather Jesus gave her life and hope in God His Father.
*************
M*W: MM was an exalted woman in Jesus' day. She was his companion, and MM wrote what Jesus actually said. Paul didn't.
*************
c20: She loved Jesus as did Paul.
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M*W: It's been well documented in the writings of MM that Paul is a liar and deceiver. But, again, you wouldn't know that.
*************
c20: Neither Jesus nor Mary nor Paul are greater than Our Father.
*************
M*W: I believe that both Jesus and Mary worshipped the same god.
*************
c20: And Our Father sent Jesus into the world to be the light of the world that men could walk by. Paul proclaims the Good News throughout His apostleship as does Peter. MM has a very blessed role in the Kingdom I will grant you but to deny Paul is again to cause division among those who call Jesus Christ 'Lord'. This is not good. What are your motives for doing so?
*************
M*W: MM was Jesus' light in the world. Again, you don't know that because you've read nothing but the bible. My motives are to bring the truth to everyone "who has ears -- let them hear."

peace

c20[/QUOTE]

 

[c20H25N3o]

What does MM say of salvation then M*W? Enlighten me.

peace

c20

 

[Medicine*Woman]

c20H25N3o: What does MM say of salvation then M*W? Enlighten me.
*************
M*W: The Gospel Of Mary Magdalene, by Jean-Yves Le Loup.

[Pages 1-6 are missing.]

[Page 7] MM asks: "What is matter? Will it last forever?"

The Teacher answered: "All that is born, all that is created, and all the elements of nature are interwoven and united with each other. All that is composed shall be decomposed; everything returns to its roots; matter returns to the origins of matter. Those who have ears, let them hear."

Peter said to Jesus: "Since you have become the interpreter of the elements and the events of the world, tell us: What is the sin of the world?"

The Teacher answered: "There is no sin. It is you who make sin exist (the disciples), when you act ccording to the habits of your corrupted nature: there is where sin lies. This is why the Good has come into your midst. It acts together with the elements of your nature so as to reunite it with its roots."

The Teacher continued: "This is why you become sick, and why you die: it is the result of your actions; what you do takes you further away. Those who have ears, let them hear."

[Pge 8] The Teacher continues: "Attachment to matter gives rise to passion against nature. Thus trouble arises in the whole body; this is why I tell you: 'Be in harmony...'. If you re out of balnce, take inspiration from manifestations of your true nature. Those who have ears, let them hear."

After saying this, the Blessed One greeted them all, saying: "Peace be with you -- may my Peace arise and be fulfilled within you! Be vigilant, and allow no one to mislead you by saying: 'Here it is!' or 'There is is!' For it is within you that the Son of Man [God] dwells. Go to him, for those who seek him [God], find him. Walk forth, and announce the gospel of the Kingdom."

Jesus continuing: "Impose no law other than that which I have witnessed. Do not add more laws to those given in the Torah lest you become bound by them."

MM: "Having said this, he departed. The disciples were in sorrow, shedding many tears, and saying: "How are we to go among the unbelievers and announce the gospel of the Kingdom of the Son of Man? [God]"

"Mary arose and embraced them all, and began to speak to her brothers: "Do not remain in sorrow and doubt, for his Grace will guide you and comfort you. Instead, let us praise his gretness, fort he has prepared us for this. He [Jesus] is calling upon us to become fully human [Anthropos]."30

"Thus Mary turned their hearts toward the Good, and they began to discuss the meaning of the Teacher's words.

[Page 10] Peter said to Mary: "Sister, we know that the Teacher loved you differently from other women. Tell us whtever you remember of any words he told you which we have not yet been heard."

Mary said to them: "I will now speak to you of that which has not been given for you to hear. I had a vision of the Teacher, and I said to him: 'Lord I see you now in this vision.' And he answered: 'You are blessed, for the sight of me does not disturb you. There where is the 'nous,' lies the treasure.' Then I said to him: 'Lord when someone meets you in a Moment of vision, is it through the soul [psyche] that they see, or is it through the Spirit [Pneuma]?'"

The Teacher answered: 'It is neither through the soul nor the spirit, but the 'nous' between the two which sees the vision, and it is this which [...]'."

--- There is a lot more text, but this is enough for now. I don't want to add all of it here.

--- Jesus clearly explains where humans can meet him, and that is not just inbetween the Psyche and the Spirit, but in the 'nous' which means Body -- to become 'completely human,' [Anthropos] with all three aspects of our being [Body, Mind, Spirit], is where God dwells.

 

[Cris]

C20,

How can man not look up and be humbled? How can man watch the butterfly emerge from the cocoon and not stand in awe and wonderment?

The vastness of the universe does put us in the context of insignificance and certainly the results of evolutionary processes are quite amazing.

How can man question the Eternal God, the maker of the heavens and the earth?

Because there is not a single scrap of credible evidence that shows that such a thing exists, has ever existed or could exist.

How can you refuse the free gift of eternal life?

I think it would be foolish to refuse if such a thing could be shown as real, but so far it appears no more than a fantasy.

How can you see the cucified Christ and not feel shame for being a part of this world?

It is only a myth and warrants no more emotion than worrying whether Frodo will destroy the ring.

How can you accuse God of commiting acts of evil when He just seperates the chaff from the wheat?

Fantasy characters can no more do evil than they can do good.

How can you deny God's unending patience with you that refuses to believe?

It makes no sense to deny a property of something that does not exist.

How can you deny the Holy Book that is authorised by the Vatican in Rome?

Because they have no authority based on proofs, evidence or truth, they only have their own created mythologies.

How can you refuse to turn and just ask for the Holy Spirit of whom we speak?

Because no one can show that such a thing is real.

How can you continue in your existence believing that you will be cut off from all whom you love?

Because all evidence from many thousands of years indicates that that is reality.

How can you do these things?

To do otherwise would be to live in a world of fantasy. Some of us prefer to face the real world.

Do you not love God?

It is foolish to love a mythical character.

Do you not see that He sent His only Son into the world so that you might know the truth?

It is just a myth and is not real.

His Son who was crucified under Pontius Pilate?

There is no evidence to support that claim and no evidence to show that anyone named Jesus was crucified.

God's Son!

Mythical characters again.

And what does Jesus ask of you???? That you love God with your whole being and love your neighbour as yourself!

Loving your neighbor has indeed some value but loving a mythical character has no value.

I am sick of hearing the blasphemies and the utterances of stupidity!

Then demonstrate that any of your fantasy claims have any basis in truth. Until then you should be careful about whom you call stupid.

I am glad God cuts off the unrepentant and I am glad God restores the repentant.

The issue isn’t a matter of repentance but reasoned thought. Reason requires evidence and you have none.

I am pleased that God reveals His wisdom to the little children who trust in Him.

Unfortunately children are usually very gullible and the primary reason why Christians target them as early as they can.

Start taking this message seriously.

Why? Without any evidence all you have is a tremendous and unfortunate joke.

And in all of your post you did not attempt to answer the question in the opening post.

Cris

 

[Cris]

C20,

Tell me the motive for fabrication. I will need to see this before I entertain this notion with an open mind.

In less enlightened times, say some 2000 years ago, when scientific and critical thinking were near to non-existent, we find that explanations for most things were routed in superstitions and beliefs in gods of many types. We also see from history that those in political power carefully aligned themselves with the god beliefs in the hope of providing them with divine authority. It was thought that many kings were assigned by the gods themselves, and who would question the authority of someone who had a god on his side.

Such were the ways of the world in those times and where the Earth was considered flat and the sun and moon and stars circled the earth. These were times of massive ignorance and illiteracy and where one was considered fortunate to live to the age of 30.

In those times to have political power meant having the favor of the gods. Whether the gods existed or not is irrelevant, it only matters that the gullible masses believe that gods exist and give their authority to the men in political power.

Christianity has no basis in fact, it is entirely a mythological story based on a collection earlier mythologies. If you believe otherwise then can you point to any single indisputable piece of evidence that shows anything from the Christian myth has some truth?

Cris

 

[Red Devil]

If one could prove to you incontrovertibly that Jesus and God were all human fabrications would you still believe? And why?


If you say yes. Then you are not concerned with the truth, you simply WANT to believe;

and if you WANT to believe, indeed, there is nothing anyone can tell you.

god is the invention of the ignorant to explain the unexplainable. Jesus was real enough but a political figure not religious. He became a "god" 400 years after his death courtesy of the church in rome.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Does MM deny that Jesus died on the cross too?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

c20H25N3o: Does MM deny that Jesus died on the cross too?
*************
M*W: There are no references in the Gospel of Mary Magdalene alluding to the crucifixion.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Then it is a false gospel. Without the death and resurrection the law would remain unfulfilled and I would not know the things I know about it because the Holy Spirit would not have been sent to me.

c20