If atheism is rational then why so many chose irationality?

Greco

Registered Senior Member
Why so few atheists? What am I not getting? If there was a poll and they asked who believed in religion they would end up with 99% of the people believing in some sort of deity. Is the atheistic 1% correct and everyone else wrong? Do atheists have doubts like priests have doubts? Are atheists so sure that they'll stay "atheists in a foxhole"?

I was born a greek orthodox, liked the liturgy and attended church often. It fascinated me to watch the theater like atmosphere. As I grew older I start questioning some things and the best answer I got from my priest was "Believe and dont ask". I tried different religions but no one had satisfactory answers to my questions. Finally ended up an agnostic.

But, why so few of us and so many of them? I dont think it's simply smarts maybe there's something that I'm missing.

Any atheistic doubters out there?
 
To put it simply yes both athiests and religous nuts have nothing but beleif behind them, but not all belief is equal, things are generally thought not in existence, until it is proven that they exist. Thats why the belief of something not existing due to lack of proof that it exists is held in higher regard then the belief of something existing due to lack of proof that it does not exist.

If you want it put it terms you can relate too, change "something" for "guilt" in the criminal sense and think of why believing somebody is guilty unless proof to the contrary is shown is held in lower regard then believing somebody is not guilty unless proof to the contrary is shown

Thats why athiests have a right to think of themselves above godboys, its because their posistion is more logical(rational), even if it is not the most logical.
 
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I think it's because people like believing in an afterlife where everything is good and all their passed family and friends are there waiting for them to have a grand reunion and you get to live in bliss for eternity. If you believe that, or some variation of it, then you raise your children to believe it. Children are given religious training from a very young age so it's natural they mostly follow their parents' faith, and they will probably pass it on to their children.
Atheists usually have to undo all that religiousness and come to grips with the assumption that there is no benevolent supreme being watching over them and that when they and their family die they just become fertilizer and worm food.
 
Katazia said:
Greco,

Atheists represent about 20% of the world – about 1.2 billion or about the same number as there are Muslims.


Thanks for the correction but to be more accurate you should have said anywhere from 4% to 20% depending upon your definition of atheism. The larger of the two figures was guessed at, counting as atheists all degrees of theistic apathists.

How many of us when the chips our down revert to verbal old habits,oh my god,god awfull,god be with you, I bet not a day goes by without expounding some sort of religious utterance.

I was reading a post by Raithere about the myth of Sysyphus on a thread started by Tiassa. The post dealt with the absurdity of life and how pain and struggle gave one meaning.Are atheists religious contrarians and just like Sysyphus derive meaning in life by struggling against God?
 
Greco,

On a different perspective - how many people are counted as Christian when really they have little idea about Christianity and only visit a church for weddings and funerals? This I would suggest is a large number. When asked in questionaires whether they believe in God then of course they say yes since that is their cultural heritage. But what is the real value of their opinions? Very little I think.

I beieve that most atheists take such a label because they have specifically thought through the issues and have made a rational decision. I do not believe you can say anything like that for the majority of Christians.

Kat
 
doubt what?..

Athiest are in the minority, yes! are theists all dilusional? no I think it goes without saying most don't worry about their religious convictions, they claim this or that denomination however there are few religious zealots of any one denomination. Only when they do something radical like blowing themselves up, or the Kamakazi! do we take a look at how strong their zeal is.

It is late, but I think you could get your answer as to why the number of people believe in god is greater than then the one's that don't through anthropology.

Godless.
 
Greco, we humans have a great ability to rationalize what we want to believe and make it seem sensible. Of course believers and atheists can not both be right. Either there is a God or there is not. People do change their minds about this. In my experience I have seen atheists become believers but I have never seen someone who believes in God become an atheist. I think it's a one way street. You can figure out why yourself.
 
Quote: (but I have never seen someone who believes in God become an atheist. I think it's a one way street. You can figure out why yourself.)

Lazer eyes, open them! most athiest have religious back ground.

http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/

The above is an example of a priest that became atheist! go figure the factor that changed his mind was the bible itself!!.

Godless.
 
If there's no god as presented in the bible what sort of god can exist? Obviously we are all awed by what we see around us and we attempt to attribute that to a creator. It all seems so perfect for life to exist upon this planet it's hard to believe that there's no intelligence in its creation. We claim that we are intelligent entities and yet we refuse to believe that what made us intelligent isn't.

Something doesnt fit quite right with an atheistic ideology, instinctively we crave for a "god", logically we dispence with him claiming there's no proof.

I sort of feel like a brain cell that does it's business without knowing why. Could it be that humans do their business without knowing why?
Maybe existence is a staircase of different realities.
 
Greco said:
I was born a greek orthodox, liked the liturgy and attended church often. It fascinated me to watch the theater like atmosphere. As I grew older I start questioning some things and the best answer I got from my priest was "Believe and dont ask". I tried different religions but no one had satisfactory answers to my questions. Finally ended up an agnostic.

But, why so few of us and so many of them? I dont think it's simply smarts maybe there's something that I'm missing.

In response to your question about why so few of "us" and an abundance of them, I'll pose a few hypotheses for your consideration.

First, it appears to me that many theists are taught (perhaps "indoctrinated with" is more accurate) religious beliefs from a young age. When you consider the fundamental facts of the world that you learned as a kid (consider basic arithmetic and science), few tend to question those early teachings, and I suspect that has something to do with the trust and respect for their teachers. For example, when's the last time you questioned why 9 + 9 = 18 or if you drop your shoe, why it falls "downward"? Chances are good, that unless of you've worked with non-decimal numbering systems, or explored zero-gravity environments, you've had little reason to question these apparent "brute facts" which you likely learned quite early in life.

Second, among those who do question their religious beliefs one of two things generally happens: either their faith is enhanced, or their skepticism increases. As you mention in your post, you liked the liturgy and theater of your religious experience. And for many, I suspect that's completely sufficient. Thus, there's no need to pause and question the fundamental aspects of their religion. They enjoy the companionship, sense of community and congregation of their religious services with a nary a gripe or question raised. And few churches - if any - open the floor to rebuttals after the sermon is delivered.

Third, since atheism is not an affirmative belief system - as religions are - there is not as much to base continued teaching (or indoctrination, should you prefer that term) upon. Try passing atheism on to your kids and it becomes tough to get past the start line, which is little more than a lack of teaching religious beliefs.

My fourth hypothesis would regard the environmental impact. Had you been raised in Baghdad or Tehran, it's likely that you wouldn't have been born into Greek orthodoxy, but Sunii or Shi'a Muslim environment. And religious conversion rates tend to be pretty low. Basically, this is my first hypothesis reiterated with respect to location. In largely theistic cultures, there's some degree of pressure - however subtle or significant that may be - to conform with the norms of society.

And finally - and with respect to the fact that this is conjecture and hypothesis on my part - I've found that the critical thinking abilities of most folks pretty much sucks. There is a big difference between teachng someone an affirmative position of "God exists" (or "God does not exist") than phrasing it in the interrogative form ("Does God exist?"), and then pressing their critical thinking skills.

Wow... I made it through that without mentioning anything about shrewd marketing tactics, the proverbial carrot and stick, the red phone to Absolute Truth(tm) or posthumous consequences. I'm either getting better at this game or I'm running outta piss and vinegar...

Regards,
mrmufin
 
Greco said:
Something doesnt fit quite right with an atheistic ideology, ...
No, the atheist perspective doesn't fit quite right with your superstitions.

Greco said:
... instiinctively we crave for a "god", ...
No, instinctively we crave explanation.

Greco said:
... logically we dispence with him claiming there's no proof.
It seems reasonable to dispense with that for which there is no compelling evidence.

Greco said:
I sort of feel like a brain cell that does it's business ...
Sorry.

Greco said:
Could it be that humans do their business without knowing why? Maybe existence is a staircase of different realities.
Maybe Pixie Dust mixed with Unicorn Poop is the perfect elixir, but I've no reason to think so. Similarly, ...
 
It's not really that theist don't have their doubts, we do occasionally; it is that we know, hope, and want God more than our own life itself. We are given small signs, and because we want to believe in God, we are more likely to withhold our own rational doubt of God, which almost always leads to irrational fear anyways.
 
Greco,

If there's no god as presented in the bible what sort of god can exist?
Why need there be any type of God? There doesn’t appear to be any reason why Gods should exist.

Obviously we are all awed by what we see around us and we attempt to attribute that to a creator.
No, many of us attribute what we see to natural causes; there is no good reason to suspect anything else.

It all seems so perfect for life to exist upon this planet it's hard to believe that there's no intelligence in its creation.
That’s like expressing amazement that the cake just baked so closely resembles the shape of the baking tin. Life arose because of the environment not the other way around.

We claim that we are intelligent entities and yet we refuse to believe that what made us intelligent isn't.
But nothing made us since all the evidence shows that we evolved.

Something doesnt fit quite right with an atheistic ideology, instinctively we crave for a "god",
No I don’t. That is just your childhood indoctrination speaking. Practice thinking clearly and rationally for 10 years or so and then you should be able to wean yourself away from religious addiction.

logically we dispence with him claiming there's no proof.
Pretty close. It is more than just a claim though, it is fact – there is no evidence of God – or can you show some? But you are right about logic – logic depends on facts, hence theism=illogic.

Kat
 
Any discussion on religion eventually gets to the beginning of the universe. Let’s assume (because we don’t know) that there was some sort of vacuum or nothingness and time and space did not exist (find that hard to understand). The laws of nature as we know them did not exist and yet all the laws were in place a brief period after the big bang. My question at this point is where did these laws come from? Was there some sort of library of laws that the universe chose from? If nothing existed before the big bang, where did the universe get its laws so that it could create itself? Did the universe go through an infinite sets of laws before successfully creating itself? And what instructions did the universe have in order to try all these combinations? All living things owe their existence on the values of a few physical constants that if they were just a tad different we wouldn’t be around(a remarkable set of coincidences).

Now I know all this is supposition another words scientists have made up this story to try to explain a mystery, afterall nobody was around at that time to know for sure. Even Stephen Hawkins in his book a brief period of time says “ when we know the entire story we would know the mind of god”. Hawkins is no dummy and yet he resorts to the idea of god as the designer. Science has limits there are some topics that it has difficulties with such as beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity or hope.

I think in an infinite universe there’s even room for a god.
 
Greco,

Based on your questions it seems reasonable to conclude that the big bang was not the beginning of the universe. Either the big bang is cyclic (current latest theory) or is just one of an infinite number in a multi-verse style universe.

I guess we could speculate even further - and the god idea is just another specualtion, although since it isn't natural it would seem the less likely.

Kat
 
Katazia: Based on your questions it seems reasonable to conclude that the big bang was not the beginning of the universe

Greco: precisely

Katazia: Either the big bang is cyclic (current latest theory) or is just one of an infinite number in a multi-verse style universe

Greco: Regardless of the method the question remains, how does the universe “know” what physical constants to chose in order to be succesfull..Does the universe care what physical constants it assigns to its particles or the universe blindly tries an infinite combination of constants? Does the universe have a “memory” of previous constants that worked? If ours is a succesfull universe what makes it succesfull?
Is intelligence required to confirm a succesfull universe or does the universe know that already?

Katazia: I guess we could speculate even further - and the god idea is just another specualtion, although since it isn't natural it would seem the less likely

Greco: I would say an anthropomorphic god is very unlikely but an intelligence that defies our comprehension is entirely possible. Some would say if you cant prove it then it doesn’t exist but that was the case for everything before it was discovered. Perhaps our knowledge envelope hasn’t yet reached the point of understanding higher intelligence.
 
Hello Greco,

The truth of a matter isn't determined democratically. That is, 99.999% of a population can be wrong and the remaining 0.001% can be correct. But it's also possible that everyone is wrong. Nearly everyone used to believe that the Earth is flat. Most people still believe that you "catch a cold" from getting a chill. So, please don't be too concerned with what the majority of other people believe. You wrote:
If nothing existed before the big bang, where did the universe get its laws so that it could create itself?
I don't think physical laws came first and then the universe followed - like some grand "paint by numbers" scheme. Physical laws are ideas; no more, no less. An electon doesn't consult a physics book in order to decide what to do. The world doesn't follow our laws, instead our laws attempt to follow the world. That is, physical laws are only our models of what we think the world is like. Our laws are perpetully open to falsification or revision. Laws exist, but as with all the rest of our ideas, they exist only in our minds.

As for the subject of God; it depends on how you define the word "God." Some people say things like, "God is love" or "God is everything." I would define God as an expression of our ignorance, inasmuch as it flourishes precisely where we have the least understanding. And since I doubt that man is capable of answering all of his own questions, I think there will always be a place in man's (figurative) heart for God.

But if you define God as a cognizant being that created the world, then I'd have to say that I no more believe that than I believe in the Fairies or in Leprechauns. I haven't a shred of physical evidence, nor do I have the slightest intellectual reason to assume such a belief. I see it simply as something other people believe. And as Thomas Jefferson observed, it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg that they have such beliefs. No matter if I think your belief is silly or sound, the world is large enough that you and I can each have our own unique belief.

Best wishes,
Michael
 
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Orthogonal: I don't think physical laws came first and then the universe followed - like some grand "paint by numbers" scheme. Physical laws are ideas; no more, no less. An electron doesn't consult a physics book in order to decide what to do.


Greco: I stand corrected, we humans assign laws to describe physical phenomena. What I was trying to understand is what happened during the big bang. Scientists claim that due to extreme heat atomic particles dint exist and something called singularity existed, a pinpoint full of some sort of sub-atomic particles. Scientist claim that they only can calculate what the primal universe looked like only after it had cooled enough for atomic particles to have formed.

One of the questions that can not be answered is what existed before the big bang . When scientists speculate that nothing existed neither space or time do they mean that the singularity had no history? Do they mean the singularity existed for zero time? I find something existing for zero time hard to understand. Perhaps some of you scientist can explain that to me.

If the singularity existed in time when did it decide to start expanding? Did it know how fast to expand so it wouldn’t re-collapse and what determined the rate of expansion? Or did the singularity try an infinite values of expansion before it had a value that prevented re-collapse and what was time doing during all that? Did the clock start and stop? But that would create a history wouldn’t it? One can argue that a too fast rate of expansion wouldn’t be conducive to forming intelligent life forms. It seems to me the rate of expansion is an extremely important constant that had to be calculated by an intelligent entity. Now scientist believe there’s some sort of anti-gravity constant that’s actually accelerating the expansion. What are those constants, those physical tweaks? Again it seems that some sort of intelligence started the universe and tweaked here and there to keep it going.
 
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Quote: (One of the questions that can not be answered is what existed before the big bang .)

another universe!!.

Godless.
 
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