I want a "baby girl"

Saint said:
I have 2 boys and I want a girl.
There is a company which claims that it can help couples to choose the sex of baby.
Is it true?
I am afraid to be cheated.

Do you know medically how can we choose our baby's sex?
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At first it was "God wants me to have a child." Quite soon (if not now) it will be "God wants me to have a baby girl with green eyes, brown hair, and that is 5 feet 5 inches tall."

God certainly is dead, Nietzsche.
 
good artical bells, i agree with it. Actually my first thought is a change in the laws would be a good thing, if you abort (for non medical reasons, which would include health of fetus) then you should be banned from reciving medicare funds for IVF. Now sure i dont think because a 16 year old fell pregant and aborted that she should be pennelised when she is in her 20s and wants a kid, but this is compleatly different. without judging abortion in general this case is no better than those chiness farmers who left there baby daughters on the beach to die, that was concidered a human rights crime (rather than just murder) because it specifically targeted a gender and this is no better.

Cifo: finding a mate is about alot more than reproduction. Mental health, physical health, housing policy, finantial policy ect ect all can be helped or hindered by changing gender balance away from the 50%. Sure some people will chose to remain single and some will never find someone they can live with but the more who do the less problems that goverments and communities are forced to expend money on, and its about alot more than just sex.
 
if it does not involve abortion, it is morally right to determine baby's sex if viable,
 
Saint

You have not answered my suggestion, would you adopt a boy that needs a good home that's been put up for adoption?
 
Asguard said:
good artical bells, i agree with it. Actually my first thought is a change in the laws would be a good thing, if you abort (for non medical reasons, which would include health of fetus) then you should be banned from reciving medicare funds for IVF. Now sure i dont think because a 16 year old fell pregant and aborted that she should be pennelised when she is in her 20s and wants a kid, but this is compleatly different. without judging abortion in general this case is no better than those chiness farmers who left there baby daughters on the beach to die, that was concidered a human rights crime (rather than just murder) because it specifically targeted a gender and this is no better.

Cifo: finding a mate is about alot more than reproduction. Mental health, physical health, housing policy, finantial policy ect ect all can be helped or hindered by changing gender balance away from the 50%. Sure some people will chose to remain single and some will never find someone they can live with but the more who do the less problems that goverments and communities are forced to expend money on, and its about alot more than just sex.
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For me, I do not understand why you would go through the effort of IVF, and it is an effort if my cousin's long and painful experience is anything to go by, to then abort because it wasn't a girl.

And then claim that you would suffer from a mental breakdown if you did not have a girl. That tells me that she should possibly be seeking help before she has any more children.
 
Obviously a society cant have their preferences for things like sex, eye color, skin color, hair color etc. without some checks. It can be done scientifically...though really only the sex part will be probelmatic, in a practical sense. Too many males will breed a scary\violent civilization as well, i would think.
 
Saint said:
my wife and I want a baby girl, to raise her up in a loving family.
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So what? If we slow people to play with the sex of there children we risk the gender balance and that's a lot more important than wether you want a girl or a boy. Your comment that unless it involves abortion its moral lacks ANY attempt to actually prove the morality objectivly, just shows your own desires. Just because you want something doesn't make it moral
 
Asguard said:
So what? If we slow people to play with the sex of there children we risk the gender balance and that's a lot more important than wether you want a girl or a boy. Your comment that unless it involves abortion its moral lacks ANY attempt to actually prove the morality objectivly, just shows your own desires. Just because you want something doesn't make it moral
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i want to kick your ass and ask you to suck my dick.:eek:
 
Saint said:
i want to kick your ass and ask you to suck my dick.:eek:
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so in other words you have no other answer as to the morality than "i want therefore i should have"?

that sort of sloppy thinking is what leads to all poor moral choices, from the nazi doctors and solders who were "only following orders" to Herb Green to homosexuals being concidered criminal or mentally ill and right down to the sorts of sloppy ethics which force young cancer patients who knowingly want to just let there cancer take its course being forced to endure massivly painfull procidures which have almost no chance of success.

try framing a sound argument using an ethical framework like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principlism

Then your arguments will have more weight, for instance.

"your right to autonomy is outweighed in this case by the principle Nonmaleficence (not to harm) which in this case must be looked at globally as to the worst case senario if this technology is alowed to run its course which is the disruption of the gender balance and the impact this will have on future generations who are unable to pair bond and will have to pay higher taxes in order to fund extra health, mental health and housing services (amongst others) because goverment is forced to step in to fix problems caused by the inability of large sections of the population to pair bond. Further more the enviromental impact would be larger than a balanced population as more land and resorces are needed per person for people living alone compared to those living in a pair bonded situation. At an apsolute worst case senario this could lead to the compleate obliteration of one of the genders. This has been shown to be possible from the chiness example though its more likly in a westen situation this would be the elimination of the male gender as females tend to be prefered AND women have the ability to access IVF without the nessecity for a male partner which alows the shrinking of the male gender with a lesser imidiate impact on general fertility rates in the imidiate.

further more this is further reinforced by the principle of justice (social distribution of benefits and burdens) which states that there should be an equality in the distribution of services and there for indervidual cases cant be looked at in isolation but as they effect the population and enviroment as a whole rather than just how they effect the indervidual person (ie you)

Beneficence (to do good) therefor shows that the best outcome for the population as a whole is to inact laws to prevent IVF being used for this purpose. This gives certainty to couples and the population as a whole"

So try something like that, use any ethical system you like but "because i want it" is not an ethical system
 
Hey Asguard - chill.

If Saint wants a baby girl, there is nothing wrong with that. It is a damn sight better than those Chinese who want a baby boy and kill girl babies to get one.

All would-be parents have preferances. Some even act on those preferances with assorted reproductive technologies - mostly bogus. That is simply their right.
 
actually its not, as shown by the fact that by law sex selection is illegal. IVF is there for one purpose only, to help people who CANT get pregnant to get pregnant, the tax money i and my partner pay to medicare isnt there to fund the program so that people can get designer babies.

Further more the risks associated with ALOWING people to select the "perfect" baby are perfectly ovious, with sex selection we risk upseting the balance between genders for future generations. We also risk a gender anilaltion which is only "nicer" in the sense that your not actually killing the babies, the gender problems china is currently experiancing will be no less servere because of that.

As for other "designer babies" sure its great to get rid of genetic diseases which kill but we also run the risk of removing all forms of deversity out of the community. Which is exactly what the nazies tried to do but once again this will only be "nicer" in the sense you dont actually have to kill anyone which only makes it more likly to work because there will be little or no public outcry.

Sometimes the needs of sociaty as a whole DO outweigh the "rights" of the inderviduals who as bells said "want the babies hair colour to match the furniture"

i sugest you go back and read bells post

Bells said:
Or just hope that the baby you have, regardless of sex, is healthy.


Like saying you don't want to feel cheated if you have a boy. I guess I don't understand that kind of reasoning. I would have liked to have had a girl, but ended up having two little boys. I don't feel cheated. Quite the contrary. If I had had more boys, I still wouldn't feel cheated.

Like the mother who said she would suffer psychologically if she did not have a little girl because they refuse to do sex selection in her case - since there are no genetic abnormalities that would require it. And so, because her subsequent pregnancies have been male offspring, she has simply aborted them - even though she has been going for IVF to fall pregnant each time. There have been some in the medical profession who have said that she should just get what she wants. But will that satisfy her? Or is her need to have another little girl, to the point where she is aborting healthy fetus because they are male, stemming from grief and there is no guarantee that she won't suffer a mental breakdown. As it stands, it seems she and her husband have said they will go elsewhere to get what they want so that she does not have a breakdown.

I don't get it. I don't understand how some can be that obsessed.
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Is someone who HAS to have a paticular sex a good candiate for the resorces the state puts into IVF in the first place? are they really going to be a good parent? what will the next thing be? the baby shop ad where if the baby cries to much you can return it? or gatica where discrimination is based on your gens and someone actually born from sex is shuned?
 
Asguard

You are reading way too much into a simple desire for a baby girl.

Saint in not responsible for future societal ills or gender imbalances. In fact, if gender selection became the norm, it would probably tilt towards males, as it has in China, and Saint would be a hero for choosing a gal.

The technology for reliable gender selection is not quite here yet, but it will arrive. Services like that tend to get used, and we can predict a time when parents will, indeed, be able to have the gender child they want. How will this change society? I dunno, and neither do you.
 
Skeptical said:
Asguard

You are reading way too much into a simple desire for a baby girl.

Saint in not responsible for future societal ills or gender imbalances. In fact, if gender selection became the norm, it would probably tilt towards males, as it has in China, and Saint would be a hero for choosing a gal.

The technology for reliable gender selection is not quite here yet, but it will arrive. Services like that tend to get used, and we can predict a time when parents will, indeed, be able to have the gender child they want. How will this change society? I dunno, and neither do you.
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incorect, in poor farming communities maybe but in the west its much more likly that gender selection would be in preference of females and with the avilability of IVF for single females this would push ALOT further before it reached anything like the publicity that the femicide in china has. Already the gender balance is tiped towards females because of the higher death rates for males in every age group and alowing gender selection would increase this.

As far as saints responcibility, he is seeking technology funded through tax payers money for the purpose of helping couples who are unable to have children concive. We arnt talking about the ethics of old wives tales like women on top means girl but goverment funded reproductive assistance. So far he hasnt even put forward any evidence to sugest that he or his wife are actuall infertile which means that unless there is a MAJOR genetic illness which is preventing them from having children because the child would suffer significant harm or death if born a boy they arnt even ELIGABLE to use IVF.

Inspite of what people think, govements and sociaty DO have an intrest in things like the gender balance and a right to put in place laws which prevent the missuse of goverment funds.

Once again i refer you to bells's point:

If your not happy with the child you get, what makes you think you are a good parent?

This attidude DIRECTLY leads to what is currently happerning in victoria, a series of abortions of healthy fetuses including twins because they happen to be male and then the couple cries against the inhumanity of the laws preventing them from using IVF to sex select. How does she think that her other children are going to feel when they grow up and hear about this case and find out that she aborted there twin brothers because they happened to have penises? Its nothing but selfishness which is exactly what we DONT want in parents, they should be thinking of the child first, not wether it has the right sex organs or eye colour. In fact there are laws against sexual discrimination and if discrimination in the work place is so important how could it be any less important in BIRTH?
 
Asguard said:
If your not happy with the child you get, what makes you think you are a good parent?
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There is no call for questioning someone’s parental suitability simply because they have expressed a wish for a child of a certain sex after already having two children. You’re over-blowing and over-analysing this way too much.
 
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