I dont get it, the essence of religion, i really dont

Adstar has it right in post 2.

I have fish that I've raised from fry. I am more intelligent than they can possibly comprehend.

But you can bet I watch them swim, eat and poop. And you can bet I'll take remedial action if they stop eating, pooping or swimming.

I care about them. I care for them.
 
With your permission i would like to try building a case and ask u whether it make sense.

There is a very big dispute about free will.

I don't believe there is. Free will is self evident. People do what they will to do. The evidence is clear everywhere.



Would you agree that lack of free will provide the "smoking gun" to the existence of some higher form of intelligence responsible for all this?

What would the existence of free will or otherwise have to do with the existence of God. God could exist if the universe had no free will and God could exist in a universe where free will existed.


If so, what is reproducibility if not the lack of free will? animal are "forced" to reproduce by tricking them in to it with.

Well animals may not have free will as we do. They may run on instinct only. But animals not having free will does not mean Humans have no free will.


There is no logic in giving offsprings that would compete with you over food. It may make sense with species that rely on safety in numbers but sole predators harm them self by reproducing so whats the sense in that? doesnt it seem that some animals where "put" here to keep the equilibrium going?

Maybe so.



Take a female leopard for instance. What incentives does she have to give offsprings? Isnt she driven in to it against her will? And if something is driven, someone have to drive. Isnt it so?

Maybe so.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
I don't believe there is. Free will is self evident. People do what they will to do. The evidence is clear everywhere.
No it is not self evident.

There's no guarantee that what people are doing is guided by a will, as opposed to their will being directed by their hormones, chemistry and instincts.

...animals not having free will does not mean Humans have no free will.
Since humans are animals, we must start with the premise that we are no more free than they are - and then demonstrate that we are qualitatively different.

The onus is on you to show that a human getting up from the couch and going to the fridge to get a can of pop is somehow acting more free than a cat getting up from a nap to go to its water dish.
 
Free will is free - the cat could decide not to go, or just lick its own arse - but not always easy.
 
I'm jewish. In fact, i'm an Israeli.

What i dont get is, how the hell people think god is in their favour.

Dont get me wrong, the more i get deep in my scientific work the more i get convinced that although the world around us could have evolved randomly, behind it there is a bigger plan or creator of some kind. to simplify, someone/thing puts ingredients and watches what happens with out necessarily interfere with the component's interaction.

If there is someone behind all this he must be damn smart, much beyond our grasp. So, how in gods name, entity with such intelligence can be expected to care about our petty deeds, did we pray, did we rest on sabbath, confess our sins or been to mecca. You really believe this is what an existence this magnitude contemplate about?!

As i said, I dont get it.[/QUOTE
It's all about fear of the unknown, nationalism, and using a very powerful tool to control the people.(i.e RELIGON) God does not control anything whenever there is a natural disaster or tragic event people ask "why would ( insert name of diety here) allow this to happen?" it's their way of rationalizing an event that was beyond their powers to control. Regardless most human related to caused accidents are you guessed it the results of human choices not the will of a supernatural deity. Let say your just getting out of the bar or local pub and you had a bit too many drinks. You can choose to hail a taxi or have your DD drive you home or you can drive yourself, lets say for the experiment that you decide to drive yourself home now that was a choice that will lead to any of the following: A: Major Car Accident with thousands of dollars in damages. B: Major Car Accident with a person(s) injured along with damages C: Major Car Accident with a side of Vehicular Manslaughter or D: You're Arreseted at the nearest DUI check stations before you can do any harm.
 
@Geoff --

Or can it? How do you know that there is a conscious decision being made by the cat? This isn't even clear in humans and we've studied our brains and behavior far more thoroughly than we have for cats.
 
There's no way to know for sure that it isn't free, but both choices appear open. It could do either, insofar as we can tell. It has the capacity. Its solution set comprises both possibilities.
 
There is a thing called human nature. This is based on personality firmware within the human brain. This area of the human psyche is where religion tends to focus. It will attempt to differentiate the effects and make one conscious of these effects. It also correlates progression and regression in human nature, so there is progression.

For example, there would be a behavior difference between two people if one believed god was watching all the time, and the other believed only big brother was watching, sometimes. The first would need more will power, to make sure he didn't follow blind impulse since there is no where to hide. The second only has to pretend when big bother is around and then find a private place to indulge blind impulse. The first practice will power more often and will also need to be more conscious of their own humans nature for the needed checks and balances. If it is only big brother, you don't need to know as much.

Ask yourself, what do I know about human nature?
 
There is a thing called human nature. This is based on personality firmware within the human brain. This area of the human psyche is where religion tends to focus. It will attempt to differentiate the effects and make one conscious of these effects. It also correlates progression and regression in human nature, so there is progression.

For example, there would be a behavior difference between two people if one believed god was watching all the time, and the other believed only big brother was watching, sometimes. The first would need more will power, to make sure he didn't follow blind impulse since there is no where to hide. The second only has to pretend when big bother is around and then find a private place to indulge blind impulse. The first practice will power more often and will also need to be more conscious of their own humans nature for the needed checks and balances. If it is only big brother, you don't need to know as much.

Ask yourself, what do I know about human nature?

Sounds like your firmware needs an upgrade, this view is rather naive.
 
There's no way to know for sure that it isn't free, but both choices appear open.

We start with the default. We know many animals do not have free will. Bacteria and worms have behavior that is completely described by their chemical processes (whether from within their fluids or without, in the environment).

The onus is on the case to show that some animals are different. That some animals have what we describe as free will. Cats and humans are also built from cells, with chemistry within and without, so as a first premise, it is certainly plausible that we too are described by our chemistry (albeit extremely complex chemistry).

So, the question at-hand is: though they may be quantitatively more complex than bacteria, what compelling argument is there that cats and humans are qualitatively different than worms and bacteria? Until you can show that - a person deciding to get up from the couch to go to the fridge for a drink, or to pick up a book and read it - is fundamentally a different process from a cat or a worm searching for food, you cannot be sure that humans have free will.
 
@Geoff --

I don't think that there's no way for us to know, I just don't think that we have the capability to discern which is which at the moment, then again I'm not one to ever say that science won't or can't figure something out. At the current moment though I'd have to say that, given the philosophical issues inherent with our current conception of free will, the more parsimonious possibility is that we're creatures of our environment, within and without.
 
We start with the default. We know many animals do not have free will. Bacteria and worms have behavior that is completely described by their chemical processes (whether from within their fluids or without, in the environment).

The onus is on the case to show that some animals are different. That some animals have what we describe as free will. Cats and humans are also built from cells, with chemistry within and without, so as a first premise, it is certainly plausible that we too are described by our chemistry (albeit extremely complex chemistry).

So, the question at-hand is: though they may be quantitatively more complex than bacteria, what compelling argument is there that cats and humans are qualitatively different than worms and bacteria? Until you can show that - a person deciding to get up from the couch to go to the fridge for a drink, or to pick up a book and read it - is fundamentally a different process from a cat or a worm searching for food, you cannot be sure that humans have free will.

Actually, before that, you'd have to decide on the scale of the function. Can it be objectively described as qualitative? What's the break-point on the distribution? A lizard? A salamander? A fish? I think it's more reasonable that any organism with at least some neural differentiation and development has free will. I can choose to respond to this post, or not. I can choose the timing thereof. Environmental history and genetic predisposition might encourage certain decisions - even very strongly - but they do not amount to total control of behavior.

@Geoff --

I don't think that there's no way for us to know, I just don't think that we have the capability to discern which is which at the moment, then again I'm not one to ever say that science won't or can't figure something out. At the current moment though I'd have to say that, given the philosophical issues inherent with our current conception of free will, the more parsimonious possibility is that we're creatures of our environment, within and without.

But that isn't a parsimonious explanation against the sum of human experience. Humanity is littered with choice. They make such choices; sometimes inexplicable ones. But even choices between roughly equivalent alternatives demonstrate free will. How are you defining it? What is free? How free doe one have to be to be said to have free will?
 
We start with the default. We know many animals do not have free will. Bacteria and worms have behavior that is completely described by their chemical processes (whether from within their fluids or without, in the environment).

The onus is on the case to show that some animals are different. That some animals have what we describe as free will. Cats and humans are also built from cells, with chemistry within and without, so as a first premise, it is certainly plausible that we too are described by our chemistry (albeit extremely complex chemistry).

So, the question at-hand is: though they may be quantitatively more complex than bacteria, what compelling argument is there that cats and humans are qualitatively different than worms and bacteria? Until you can show that - a person deciding to get up from the couch to go to the fridge for a drink, or to pick up a book and read it - is fundamentally a different process from a cat or a worm searching for food, you cannot be sure that humans have free will.

Something different starts to happen in the lower animals as they develop ganglia. It looks like a combinatorial network (from which some sequential paths are formed). The process appears no different from yet simpler forms, just that there is now a new organ to work out more complex decisions and to infiltrate all the other organs and tissues to better increase the detail in sense and motor functions.

The human brain and nervous system is just many layers of complexity above the ganglia of, say, planarians. The processes are still chemical (albeit electrochemical) but a virtual aspect has emerged, in which a particular result may be influenced by a prior state (as in synapse).

In a way the lower animals had some virtual states, such as we might think of osmotic pressure being a state that decides which way water will flow across a membrane. It would be interesting to see a treatise on the inner workings of the pseudopod and flagella/cilia of lower zoa, developed from this standpoint and the "need" to move.

So with the advent of nervous tissue, stimulus-response is transcribed into some God-awful algorithm that manages to solve problems like locomotion in a worm.

Since we can live without any will whatsoever (as when asleep, drunk, drugged, comatose whatever) it seems that the virtual machine that hosts free will is sufficiently independent of other life sustaining functions, but heavily dependent on the activity of the conscious mind. In other words, consciousness is something like an awareness springing out of the box that hosts it. It has a sense of its choices, but ultimately it is confined to the same laws of chemistry as an amoeba. The "freedom" from simpler constructs is found in the "choices" neurons have to grow axons and dendrites, and form synaptic junctions, which then ultimately define the architecture of the machine that hosts the ideation that we call free will.

At this level of analysis, I have a jillion jumbled up connections that somehow host an idea. When the urge to act arises, other signals are launched, and other chemicals, such as hormones, are released, and a bunch of other insanely intricate things happen, and suddenly my fingers are flying across the keyboard, or whatever.

That's probably about as far as I can reasonably run with that ball. Because we don't imagine that there's anything like a one-to-one correspondence between a particular synapse being formed and a particular impulse arising, which we might call an instance of free will.

All I can say with certainty is that free will arises out of layer upon layer of complexity, having chemistry at its base, and that it is just too exceedingly complex to model, but it seems plausible to attribute it to a virtual state machine of some kind.
 
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