Humans originating in Africa

Human life began in Africa then spread thoughout the Earth

  • YES

    Votes: 17 89.5%
  • NO

    Votes: 2 10.5%

  • Total voters
    19
And many such findings are post hoc ergo propter hoc. Just because it looks similar to a human skull, that doesn't mean it's human. It might belong to a different species very different from humans.
Well, all the 'human-like' discoveries belong to the genus homo...as in Homo Habilis, Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens.

Thats us!

So yes, there are different species under the same genus.

All of these fossils have more in common with man than ape, and you can see the progression from large jaws and small brains, to the reverse in modern humans.
 
Yes, they walked - over many generations. If you work out the average distance covered in the expansion per year, you'll find it only amounts to perhaps a few tens of kilometres.
I think you're off by an order of magnitude. It's more like one or two km per year.
How do scientists know that humans did not evolve from common ancestors of other non-African apes like Orangutans?
Wikipedia has very good articles on taxonomy, check them out. To summarize, the apes split off from the other primates, then the great apes split from the lesser apes (gibbons and a couple of less well known species). The orangutan split off from the other great apes first--consistent with its migration out of Africa--then the gorilla which split into two species. I'm a little fuzzy on the separation of chimpanzees, bonobos and humans, but whichever line split first, we ended up being most closely related to the "true" chimps. We also have more in common with them in behavior. Bonobos are regular hippies, they all love each other and spend half their time having sex. Chimpanzees get downright violent and sometimes kill each other.
Is it correct that ALL species of great apes originated out of Africa?
Check Wikipedia. It's a great resource, you should learn to use it. Sure it's got errors and gets hacked occasionally but it gets fixed very fast.
Yes, it's normal behavior. It's only in the past few thousand years that any humans anywhere have confined themselves to little towns. Any hunting and gathering people will go where the good hunting and gathering are - and places with lots of game and no experience of human hunters or gatherers would make good destinations.
You're talking about the Paradigm Shift from the Mesolithic to the Neolithic Era. The invention of the technologies of agriculture and animal husbandry. That is what allowed people to build permanent settlements. For the first time ever they were able to create and accumulate more artifacts than they could carry while walking, such as sturdy roofs, furniture, musical instruments and distilleries. This was the precursor to civilization.
If we were dogs, we'd all be the same breed (before the Kennel Club got hold of the definition, anyway).
Yes. There is more difference between the DNA of a greyhound and a Lhasa Apso than between a Norwegian and a man from New Guinea. Despite the fact that dogs have only had around 15,000 years to diverge.
 
I think you're off by an order of magnitude. It's more like one or two km per year.Wikipedia has very good articles on taxonomy, check them out. To summarize, the apes split off from the other primates, then the great apes split from the lesser apes (gibbons and a couple of less well known species). The orangutan split off from the other great apes first--consistent with its migration out of Africa--then the gorilla which split into two species. I'm a little fuzzy on the separation of chimpanzees, bonobos and humans, but whichever line split first, we ended up being most closely related to the "true" chimps. We also have more in common with them in behavior. Bonobos are regular hippies, they all love each other and spend half their time having sex. Chimpanzees get downright violent and sometimes kill each other.Check Wikipedia. It's a great resource, you should learn to use it. Sure it's got errors and gets hacked occasionally but it gets fixed very fast.You're talking about the Paradigm Shift from the Mesolithic to the Neolithic Era. The invention of the technologies of agriculture and animal husbandry. That is what allowed people to build permanent settlements. For the first time ever they were able to create and accumulate more artifacts than they could carry while walking, such as sturdy roofs, furniture, musical instruments and distilleries. This was the precursor to civilization.Yes. There is more difference between the DNA of a greyhound and a Lhasa Apso than between a Norwegian and a man from New Guinea. Despite the fact that dogs have only had around 15,000 years to diverge.

So then explain to me how nationalities are so clearly defined. Meaning Irish in Ireland, Italians in Italy etc. Even being geographically close these people are easily distinct in appearance and for that matter as are British in U.K.

Especially the more distinct Chinese (asian) in China and the variations throughout Asia, African (black) in Africa, Scandinavia (white)

These people would have had to identified themselves early on and migrated in packs w\out any interbreeding along the way.

I think i am being clear, can you explain this?
 
This whole concept fascinates me.

Question One:

At what point in history did human differences become defined?

Question Two:

When did human populations become segmented and how were the numerous variations established?

Not in culture but appearance.

Note: The reason i am asking these questions is obviously because i do not know, nothing to read into, no agenda...Since i do not know, does any of this even make sense?
 
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This whole concept fascinates me.

Question One:

At what point in history did human differences become defined?

Question Two:

When did human populations become segmented and how were the numerous variations established?

Not in culture but appearance.

There was no single point in history where any human group suddenly changed appearance.

There was a gradual divergence between peoples as they lost contact with their founder groups as they spread to new locations.

Look across the breadth of Eurasia. On the western limits you will find people who look European. On the Eastern limits you will find people who look Asian. And as you go from west to east, you will see every possible gradation between those two extremes.

Perhaps your mistake is in imagining that people form a limited set of separate "types" or races, rather than each person being an individual set of genes that has only ever existed once in human history.
 
There was no single point in history where any human group suddenly changed appearance.

There was a gradual divergence between peoples as they lost contact with their founder groups as they spread to new locations.

Look across the breadth of Eurasia. On the western limits you will find people who look European. On the Eastern limits you will find people who look Asian. And as you go from west to east, you will see every possible gradation between those two extremes.

Perhaps your mistake is in imagining that people form a limited set of separate "types" or races, rather than each person being an individual set of genes that has only ever existed once in human history.

I know what your saying. In essence humans segregated themselves? From Africa some went east, some went west etc. and some stayed there. Do you think these founder groups were established before they left Africa and if not how did they develop because if the were not defined before they left then genetically they could have possessed many different variations.

I know about dominant and recessive genes, but do you see the slightest problem here?
 
John99:

There is no need for the diversity to be pre-existing before people left Africa. Normal genetic drift is enough to create the diversity in isolated populations later on.
 
john99 said:
So then explain to me how nationalities are so clearly defined. Meaning Irish in Ireland, Italians in Italy etc. Even being geographically close these people are easily distinct in appearance and for that matter as are British in U.K.
Humans have a very keen eye - almost spooky - for very small ingroup/outgroup differences. We also have a built in tendency to see patterns in even random distributions of things. On top of those factors we have a tendency to modify our visual impressions to fit any preset categories - we tend to see what we have come to expect.

So even so clearly defined a category difference as Korean vs Japanese, easily maintained on sight by any Japanese living near one of the Korean "neighborhoods" in Japan, can prove difficult for a Norwegian - who can spot a Swede by their shadow on a wall, with better than random accuracy.

But all these people can be fooled, by someone willing to put the effort in.

No one is anywhere near writing a computer program that can reliably classify photographs of people into even the most general racial categories, and a great many people have "passed" into different races even, let alone different ethnicities, with small modifications of dress and deportment.

I think I mentioned this before, but I once had a girlfriend who changed races twice a year, from black to white and back. She had no African or other "black" ancestors for several generations at least.
 
Life, we’ve been told, originated in the oceans.
Should we be proud of this heritage?
Are fish, also, our equals?
 
So then explain to me how nationalities are so clearly defined. Meaning Irish in Ireland, Italians in Italy etc. Even being geographically close these people are easily distinct in appearance and for that matter as are British in U.K.
It's an interesting facet of zoology that within some species there is very little differentiation in appearance due to genetics whereas in others the difference is riotous. There are some extremely inbred populations of mountain lions in the U.S. but we can't tell them apart. On the other hand, I've read that if you handed someone who was not a primatologist the skulls from two gorillas from different tribes 500 miles apart, they are so strikingly different that he would swear they are two different species. (There are 2 species of gorillas but they're talking about within one species.) Humans, fairly close relatives of gorillas, seem to have the same trait. We have genes that affect our appearance in a wide variety of ways. Since, aside from the obvious function of melanin as a sunblock, it's hard to think of an evolutionary advantage to these utterly ephemeral differences, it's probably just an accident of evolution that we got stuck with physical differences that cause us to hate each other while mountain lions, who are not social animals and couldn't care less, didn't.
Especially the more distinct Chinese (asian) in China and the variations throughout Asia, African (black) in Africa, Scandinavia (white).
Yes, and the Asians wonder why we got such a chaotic range in appearances while they didn't. My Asian friends agree that they look more like each other than we do.
These people would have had to identified themselves early on and migrated in packs...
Well it was the Mesolithic era so of course they migrated in packs. That's how humans lived in those days, in extended families of hunter-gatherers who migrated seasonally to follow wild game and harvest fruits, nuts and herbs. From what I've read I'd say a typical clan size was about 50 people.
...without any interbreeding along the way.
Interbreeding with whom??? They were the first ones there. All we know about the behavior of Stone Age people is what little we can study from the very few tribes still in existence in places like the Amazon and New Guinea, all of whom have been to some extent "contaminated" by contact with nearby civilizations. It's presumed that hunter-gatherer clans regarded each other warily because none could condone competition for food on its own territory. That related tribes may have gathered at festivals during the opulent season when they had nothing to fear from each other. That Homo sapiens's strong urge for outbreeding was practiced at these festivals. (Most of us still find foreigners and people of other "races" sexually exotic and have to be browbeaten by our priests and politicians not to date them.) So, speculatively, there was just enough stirring of the gene pool to keep inbreeding from creating health problems, but not enough to prevent local groups from developing common features in their appearance.

Competition between tribes would have been less of a problem on the leading edge of the diaspora where everyone was staring into an unpopulated wilderness, but the tribes there would not be in close enough proximity to foster outbreeding. Those populations in fact might very well have been the most isolated and inbred ones, and taken their genetically reinforced peculiar appearance to their new home with them.
At what point in history did human differences become defined?
Which differences? As I've noted in other threads, the epicanthic eye fold we regard as the defining component of "Oriental" appearance did not arise until around six thousand years ago, because the "Orientals" who came over to become the first and second waves of aboriginal Americans don't have them. (I don't know if the Eskimo-Aleuts have them, I've never met one. Their migration only goes back 4,000 years.) As I've also pointed out, skin color, another trait that many of us find to be of overwhelming importance, is so ephemeral as to be ridiculous. Populations that move north change from dark to light in less than two thousand years, and vice versa. (Compare the Bengali to their close kin, the Ukrainians.) The skin color of any group of people you pick may have changed ten or twenty times during its migrations.

Any particular physical trait you single out, such as hair color, nose shape, etc., was probably stabilized at a different point in a people's history. Nobody's complete appearance changed and became what we see today as a single process.
When did human populations become segmented and how were the numerous variations established? Not in culture but appearance.
This has been a gradual, iterative process which, at least outside of Africa, has been going on continuously for 70,000 years. If you went back 20,000 years and looked at samples of the ethnic groups that lived on the planet in those days, when Homo sapiens was just setting foot in Europe but had not yet reached the Americas, you would probably not recognize anybody. Prolific tribes who spawned some of the ethnic groups which are culturally dominant today, such as the Arabs and the Indo-Iranian peoples, did not yet exist.
In essence humans segregated themselves?
We didn't "segregate" ourselves. We migrated off in different directions and separated ourselves physically. That's quite a different verb. Genetic drift created the differences from that point.
From Africa some went east, some went west etc. and some stayed there.
Don't lose track of the fact that this was the Mesolithic era and the nomadic groups you're talking about probably numbered less than a hundred people each. Human life was not as we know it today. People did not live in large permanent settlements where they had to learn to get along with people they didn't know very well. They stuck with their families.
Do you think these founder groups were established before they left Africa and if not how did they develop because if the were not defined before they left then genetically they could have possessed many different variations.
Considering that it took Mesolithic human tribes tens of thousands of years before any of them finally managed to succesfully migrate out of Africa, it was probably not a large number of groups who actually did it. The people who lived south and west of the Red Sea would have had to walk across the territories of dozens, hundreds of unfriendly tribes to get to the Red Sea. Not likely in the Mesolithic. The genetic variation we see in humans outside of Africa surely developed after their ancestors left Africa.
I know about dominant and recessive genes, but do you see the slightest problem here?
I guess not. I don't understand your question. 70,000 years is a long time for genetic drift to redesign a species. Humans used to reach puberty at a much younger age than today, so that's five or six thousand generations!
 
And through all the time of human evolution, all groups of humans still have the exact same level of intelligence.;)
 
And you know this ....how?
Baron Max
Because if I were to say:

"The further north people went "Out of Africa," the more evolution selected for larger brains, slower growth rates, greater longevity, lower hormone levels, less sexual potency, less aggression, and less impulsivity. Advanced planning, self-control, and rule-following are cultural manifestations of these gene-based evolutionary strategies. Surviving in cold environments required increased intelligence and larger brains. The wider hips of white and Asian women evolved to allow them to give birth to larger brained babies.

What are the implications of this research? One is that we should stop blaming white racism for all society's problems. If blacks are good at certain sports, and Orientals do well in schools, it cannot be because each group is trying to "overcome the prejudice of white society," because each group shows the same pattern of strengths and weaknesses in their countries of origin.

Sometimes it is claimed by those who argue that race is just a social construct that the human genome project shows that because people share roughly 99% of their genes in common, that there are no races. This is silly. Human genes are 98% similar to chimpanzee genes and 90% similar to those in mice, which is why these species make good laboratory animals. But no one claims that mice, chimpanzees, and humans are nearly the same! That would be laughable. Similarly, although men and women are genetically 99% the same, it is foolish to believe that sex is just a "social construction."

People differ in 1 out of every 1,000 of these base pairs. Each change in a base pair can alter a gene. Technically, base pair differences are called single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs). The 99% figure is based on DNA sequences which do not differ between people or even most mammals. These can give the impression that human groups and chimpanzees are almost identical because these genes code for similar internal organs, eyes, hands, and so on. Though humans and mice look very different, any anatomy student can tell you, even their internal bone structures are very similar.

The February 23, issue of Science magazine reported that 2.8 million SNPs were already being sold by Celera Genomics to scientists trying to crack the code of human behavior. Base pair differences are important and SNPs clump together in races. Just one change in the base pair for hemoglobin, for example, causes sickle-cell anemia, from which many Blacks suffer. Other base pair differences affect IQ, aggression, and mental illness. The 3.1 billion base pairs provide plenty of room for large racial differences.

If races did not exist, we would not find the same racial pattern all around the world and over time. The scientific evidence shows that the politically correct mantra "race is just skin deep" is a case of deep denial".

People would think I'm racist if I said all this, and the truth is not more important then being called a racist.
 
willy said:
"The further north people went "Out of Africa," the more evolution selected for larger brains, slower growth rates, greater longevity, lower hormone levels, less sexual potency, less aggression, and less impulsivity.
So in the far north we find the least impulsive and least aggressive people on the planet - the Mongols of Ghenghis Khan, and the Viking berserkers, and the Iroquois war nations.
willy said:
If races did not exist, we would not find the same racial pattern all around the world and over time.
We don't.

Case in point: the Ainu in Japan. In Japan they are white, hairy, barbaric, and stupid - and sure enough, that's how they do in school. In the US they are Japanese - and sure enough, they do well at school, especially math
willy said:
But no one claims that mice, chimpanzees, and humans are nearly the same! That would be laughable. Similarly, although men and women are genetically 99% the same
Jared Diamond and others have claimed that humans and chimpanzees are so similar that there are in fact three kinds of chimp: standard, bonobo, and human. And obviously men and women differ in an entire chromosome - one twenty fourth of their genetic heritage, or at least 4%.

The problem with trying to separate human races by genetics is that there is no consistent genetic characteristic of any given race - the variance within a race is always greater than the variance between races.
 
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So in the far north we find the least impulsive and least aggressive people on the planet - the Mongols of Ghenghis Khan, and the Viking berserkers, and the Iroquois war nations.
We don't.

Case in point: the Ainu in Japan. In Japan they are white, hairy, barbaric, and stupid - and sure enough, that's how they do in school. In the US they are Japanese - and sure enough, they do well at school, especially math
Jared Diamond and others have claimed that humans and chimpanzees are so similar that there are in fact three kinds of chimp: standard, bonobo, and human. And obviously men and women differ in an entire chromosome - one twenty fourth of their genetic heritage, or at least 4%.

The problem with trying to separate human races by genetics is that there is no consistent genetic characteristic of any given race - the variance within a race is always greater than the variance between races.

Total bullshit.
 
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Because if I were to say:

"The further north people went "Out of Africa," the more evolution selected for larger brains, slower growth rates, greater longevity, lower hormone levels, less sexual potency, less aggression, and less impulsivity. Advanced planning, self-control, and rule-following are cultural manifestations of these gene-based evolutionary strategies. Surviving in cold environments required increased intelligence and larger brains. The wider hips of white and Asian women evolved to allow them to give birth to larger brained babies.

What are the implications of this research? One is that we should stop blaming white racism for all society's problems. If blacks are good at certain sports, and Orientals do well in schools, it cannot be because each group is trying to "overcome the prejudice of white society," because each group shows the same pattern of strengths and weaknesses in their countries of origin.

Sometimes it is claimed by those who argue that race is just a social construct that the human genome project shows that because people share roughly 99% of their genes in common, that there are no races. This is silly. Human genes are 98% similar to chimpanzee genes and 90% similar to those in mice, which is why these species make good laboratory animals. But no one claims that mice, chimpanzees, and humans are nearly the same! That would be laughable. Similarly, although men and women are genetically 99% the same, it is foolish to believe that sex is just a "social construction."

People differ in 1 out of every 1,000 of these base pairs. Each change in a base pair can alter a gene. Technically, base pair differences are called single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs). The 99% figure is based on DNA sequences which do not differ between people or even most mammals. These can give the impression that human groups and chimpanzees are almost identical because these genes code for similar internal organs, eyes, hands, and so on. Though humans and mice look very different, any anatomy student can tell you, even their internal bone structures are very similar.

The February 23, issue of Science magazine reported that 2.8 million SNPs were already being sold by Celera Genomics to scientists trying to crack the code of human behavior. Base pair differences are important and SNPs clump together in races. Just one change in the base pair for hemoglobin, for example, causes sickle-cell anemia, from which many Blacks suffer. Other base pair differences affect IQ, aggression, and mental illness. The 3.1 billion base pairs provide plenty of room for large racial differences.

If races did not exist, we would not find the same racial pattern all around the world and over time. The scientific evidence shows that the politically correct mantra "race is just skin deep" is a case of deep denial".

People would think I'm racist if I said all this, and the truth is not more important then being called a racist.

I would have to agree with everything you stated. People do dishonestly missapply percentage when it comes to race because of political correctness and your analogy illustrated the ludicrousness. Race is more than skin deep, it exists just as breeds exists and the common, random argument that there is variation in all races so you can't tell them apart is as retarded as saying you can't tell a zebra from a horse because zebras stripes differ and both share manes and hooves. Pathetic.
 
Total bullshit.

Maybe...but you really should read the research before saying that or, if you have, offer more than a two-word scatological refutation of the point. There are a fair number of studies that conclude just that, that variation between races is not as pronounced as variation within a particular race. See, for example the work of Richard Lewontin who concluded (and subsequent studies using his methodology on larger samples have likewise concluded) that "genetic variation is greater within 'races' than between them."

Or you can watch a lecture by him here, the description of which lecture states:
Richard Lewontin reviews a number of studies over many years of the genetic differentiation between individuals within local populations, of local populations within classic geographical races and between races shows that almost all human genetic variation is contained between individuals within any local population and that the consequences of repeated migrations, invasions, and mixture between groups has been to destroy any clear racial boundaries over the human population.
You may be a molecular biologist and hence able to take some particular issue with Lewontin's argument, but for the rest of us, it appears as though it is a defensible position.
 
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Thanks for responding. Looks like I will have to do some more reading.

Race differences in brain size and IQ, along with those in testosterone, have important implications for social behavior. For example, in the United States, Orientals are seen as a “model minority.” They have fewer divorces, out-of-wedlock births, and cases of child abuse than do Whites. More Orientals graduate from college and fewer go to prison. Blacks, on the other hand, are 12% of the American population but make up 50% of the prison population.

http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/vol2no1/jpr-taxonomic.html
 
I dont know of brain size differences so i cannot comment on that but there are too many smart black people and not so smart Asians.

To this day technology relies on small segments of society anyway.
 
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