How much rope do we give God?

G

GospelJohn

Registered Senior Member
Training elephants is not easy. After all, they are huge compared to humans and have a will of their own. And yet we have all seen them bend to the will of their trainers. How is this done? One step at a time and it begins very early in life.

A baby elephant is initially confined so it can barely move. Later, it is tethered by a strong cuff and chain secured to a wall or steel pole. The baby elephant slowly learns that no matter how hard it resists, its desires do not override those of his trainers. Over time, the elephant resigns itself to the status quo and the trainers are able to gradually reduce the restraints until a simple rope tied to a stake in the ground works as well as the strongest chains. What does this have to do with the subject at hand? I believe this is analogous to how constrained we become to our spiritual beliefs based in fear, guilt and shame.

So why do we hear stories of people and animals becoming lifelong friends without any coercion at all? Such stories often share a common theme. It takes time and patience and trust to accomplish such a friendship. That makes one wonder why such cruel treatment of animals, like with the training of elephants, is used at all? The answer is that it is quicker and requires much less effort from the trainer to get an animal to submit through fear and suffering than it does to win their cooperation through love and patience. But how does all this relate to religion and spirituality?

When God created us, there was a choice made as to whether or not we should have free will. Clearly we do have it, so God’s answer was that our having free will was the better way. But in having the freedom to choose our own path, we also have the choice to reject God’s loving ways. If the goal is to have everyone freely accept God’s loving ways for our own, can that best be done through love and patience, or coercion and suffering? The answer to that question has evidence on both sides, for we all do suffer even though God loves us with an everlasting love. But we also know that our choices made out of fear hardly compares to the joy of cooperating with others through love. And so the answer becomes clear.

While God’s plan may require a great deal more time and patience to accomplish, His loving approach is a sustainable win/win for us all. When every one of us joyously agrees on how we should live, coercion, suffering or our submission to anyone’s will is a moot point.

But what do we make of the Bible’s warnings of a torturous and irreversible hell to which rebellious souls are condemned? That has to be a selfish and intolerant plan created by Mankind that lacks love, compassion and patience. Such a fearful and anxious approach works quickly to scare many people into submission, but it doesn’t last. We will always sin again when our lives are guided by fear, guilt and shame.

How can I be sure I am right? God created us in His own perfect image, and so the same qualities that bring God His greatest pleasure are also shared by us. It would make no sense for God to create us so that we thought He could be improved. How would it serve for God to be something other than the most wonderful, loving and patient Creator we can imagine? So in believing that the true nature of God is to be unconditionally loving and perfect in all ways, how can we be wrong? We will still reap what we sow, for that is instructive and only leads us back into His loving arms as we learn what works best. But tethering ourselves to the fear, guilt and shame of the religions many were raised with is not what God intended nor does it yield His desired results. What do you think?
 
This is how human animals are trained for slavery, by tying them to the pole of delusion until their will is broken. At least elephants can't be talked into it, which makes them superior. I'll take my chances in the wild if it's all the same to you.
 
I think if you're going to pick and choose from the Bible then you might as well just throw the thing away and simply believe whatever you want to. There seem to be a lot of theists around here who've done the same thing. But do you realize that you are abandoning the idea that God had a message for mankind that was so important that he worked to ensure that it wasn't corrupted? If there is no reliable scripture, how can you really know anything about God at all?
 
We can no longer take the gospel as gospel, so, some theists have even retreated to the stance that only expert symbolists can now interpret what was once claimed to be the plain and simple truth of Biblical text written for the common man.

The dance of paradox always follows the carving of wishes into the stone of dogma. It's unavoidable.
 
Yes, for if by another, I would say.

It just came to mind, since dogma is, by definition, unchangeable, and, being made-up, will always have flaws to be found in it. Always better to begin with fact.
 
Ray said: "I think if you're going to pick and choose from the Bible then you might as well just throw the thing away and simply believe whatever you want to."

GJ: Why is this an "all or nothing" issue for you? If our parents, clergy, teachers or friends demonstrate conflicts, do we throw away all the advice they give us? Why would it be any different with the Bible? Much of what comes through in all those sources is "good," and we must learn discernment.

Ray said: "If there is no reliable scripture, how can you really know anything about God at all?"

GJ: How did Mankind know the nature of God and what He wanted before there was a Bible? The kingdom of heaven lies within, as Jesus said. Those who come knocking and ask will be given the answer was His promise to us all...not just the Biblical authors. Did those promises only become true after Jesus said them, or were they always Truth? When we develop a theology that has no conflicts (as exposed above), and where God's nature is unconditional love without a downside, then we can be more certain we are on the right path.
 
GospelJohn said:
Ray said: "I think if you're going to pick and choose from the Bible then you might as well just throw the thing away and simply believe whatever you want to."

GJ: Why is this an "all or nothing" issue for you? If our parents, clergy, teachers or friends demonstrate conflicts, do we throw away all the advice they give us? Why would it be any different with the Bible? Much of what comes through in all those sources is "good," and we must learn discernment.
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So, you believe that an all knowing/all powerful god who loves us and has a special plan for us has allowed his message to get corrupted? Why, that's just silly.
 
gmilam: "So, you believe that an all knowing/all powerful god who loves us and has a special plan for us has allowed his message to get corrupted? Why, that's just silly."

GJ: If you believe that God does not interfere with our free will, it is amazing to believe that the Bible could be 100% perfect when written, translated, edited and printed 100% by flawed humans.

If God is willing to interfere with our free will, then we only have limited and conditional free will to start with, but at least that POV would explain how the Bible could be His infallible word. Which of those alternatives do you subscribe to?
 
It's not so much "His word" as what other people say he said, which isn't the same thing.
 
The Bible is not perfect, it just says a lot of things, and like an inkblot, we see what we want to see in it. This is nothing new, the I Ching is the same way. I have a talking bobblehead of spock on my refrigerator, and once in a while, minutes after I have been anywhere near it, one of it's three catchphrases happens to coincide with what I'm thinking or doing, as like a commentary. Before the Bible, people would throw bones, or inspect chicken guts, or read tea leaves in the same way.
 
spidergoat said:
The Bible is not perfect, it just says a lot of things, and like an inkblot, we see what we want to see in it. This is nothing new, the I Ching is the same way. I have a talking bobblehead of spock on my refrigerator, and once in a while, minutes after I have been anywhere near it, one of it's three catchphrases happens to coincide with what I'm thinking or doing, as like a commentary. Before the Bible, people would throw bones, or inspect chicken guts, or read tea leaves in the same way.
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Spidy you better listen to your bobble head when it speaks to you . The other times when it does not coincide with your thoughts ? Well it might be trying to tell you something because your not thinking about it
 
The current fashion for Christianity is to stress love, compassion, and forgiveness, but for most of the past 2000 years it was fire and brimstone that was preached much more loudly, i.e. fear of hell to keep the ignorant masses obedient.

Remember that in the times when the bible stories were written the primary form of power was vicious authoritarianism, much like we see today in the middle east as these brutal dictators begin to fall. The bible myth-makers understood little else so it was inevitable that their fictions would reflect what the people would understand.

The fiction that is Christianity is portrayed well in your OP - the vast inconsistency of a compassionate god but also the creator of the worst form of terror and suffering imaginable. It cannot meaningfully be rationalized, such is the nature of a fantasy not based on anything real.
 
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