How is the information required for DNA ceated?

Originally posted by brainuniverse
Raithere, you can't attack someone even before knowing what he means by the word "God" the guy proposed something and insted of reading him you guys jumped on him only because he proposed something.
I didn't attack him for using the term "God" no matter what his definition is. I addressed the fact that the argument he presented is fallacious. The answer to the "where did the information come from" question has more than two possible answers; this is not a situation where if one answer is false the other is necessarily true.

Thats exactlly one of the logics used behind homeopathy, this reaction of oppsit answers has been known in the world of pharamcology for the last 80 years back after the first world war, many drugs when given in big amounts causes reaction and even induces problems for which they have been made to treat for, if need be I can explain you why.
I'm not saying that some drugs do not exhibit "homeopathy" only that there does not seem to be a statistical correlation here and no-one has been able to prove a statistically significant causal relationship. That is, one cannot statistically depend upon homeopathy as a reliable determination of what a drug will do.

The second way that homeopathy works is near the way that vaccins works, I don't think that anyone here will dare to tell that vaccins don't work, the logic is to give a very little amount of the substance that in normal amount will induce a problem, and wait that as reaction the body immune system over-eact to the pathogen, in a way that this over-reaction, this "plus", will answer back to the known problem.
You're dealing with an entirely different paradigm here. Vaccines are not drugs, vaccines are modified, weakened, or killed viruses or bacteria. Introducing these weakened pathogens into the body effectively alerts the body's natural autoimmune system. The body is better prepared to deal with an infection by giving it a small infection. This has nothing to do with homeopathy.

only ignorants will claim that there is no correlations or proves
Then please provide the studies that prove a statistically significant correlation. Until then, you're simply pissing in the wind. Prove it. (BTW that is what it means to be a skeptic.)

Here are some real trial results:

"The results of this meta-analysis were not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo. However, we found insufficient evidence from these studies to suggest that homeopathy is clearly efficacious for any single clinical condition." - http://nhscrd.york.ac.uk/online/dare/978346.htm

And a good article about homeopathy:

"More importantly, no body of reliable evidence supports the doctrines of homeopathy. One study showed a very small, but statistically significant, effect of homeopathic remedies used to treat arthritis pain. But of course at a statistical significance of P<=.05 (meaning that the results could have arisen by chance with a probability of 1 in 20), one in twenty clinical trials, on average, can be expected to show a variance with the null hypothesis. One study does not science make. And, in fact, other clinical trials of homeopathic remedies have shown no benefits compared to placebo." - http://www.hcrc.org/faqs/homeop.html
Now Raithere, tell me what the f.k are those so-called skeptic organisation doing in the field of homeopathy ? What will be next ?
I thought you said you were a "true skeptic"? If that were true you would know that a true skeptic approaches every claim skeptically. Skeptics belong everywhere.

PS: There is two foods for the mind, one is scientific knowledge, the other is the "sense of life" the "why" this brough religions, science and that should not be mixed, science will never bring those answers.
The "why" of life is not Science's job, it is the job of Philosophy, Music, Art, and Literature, (and yes even religion).

~Raithere
 
And I just caught this little tidbit from the Homeopathy site you provided.

From the "most significant clinical study presented at the conference":

"Although those of us involved in homeopathy may be surprised to learn that this rigorous study showed no reduction in headaches from homeopathic medicines, headaches may be like certain skin ailments, in which improvement may not be observable for a longer period of time and that the person's overall health is first improved. "

This should have set your skeptic's bullshit alarm off.

Face it, you're not a skeptic.

~Raithere
 
D. Reilly, M. Taylor, C. McSherry,
Is Homeopathy a Placebo Response? Controlled Trial of Homeopathic Potency with Pollen in Hayfever as Model,
Lancet, October 18, 1986, 881-86.

The double-blind study compared a high dilution homeopathic preparation of grass pollens against a placebo in 144 patients with active hay fever. The study method considered pollen counts, aggravation in symptoms and use of antihistamines and concluded that patients using homeopathy showed greater improvement in symptoms than those on placebo, and that this difference was reflected in a significantly reduced need for antihistamines among the homeopathically treated group. The results confirmed those of the pilot study and demonstrate that homeopathic potencies show effects distinct from those of the placebo

P. Fisher, A. Greenwood, E.C. Huskisson, et al.,
Effect of Homoeopathic Treatment on Fibrositis
British Medical Journal, August 5, 1989, 299:365-66.

This trial was double-blind with a crossover design, comparing R toxicodendron to a placebo in 30 patients all suffering from an identical syndrome identified as the admission criteria. It showed a significant reduction in tender spots, by 25%, when patients were given the homeopathic medicine, as compared to when they were given the placebo.

Treatment of influenza

Ferley's controlled trial (Ferley JP, Zmirou D, D'Adhemar D, Balducci F. A controlled evaluation of a homoeopathic preparation in the treatment of influenza-like syndrome. British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology 1989; 3: 329-35) looked at the effectiveness of a homeopathic preparation in the treatment of influenza and influenza-like syndromes.

The researchers say that while a regular feature of homeopathic treatment is that two patients who have the same disease are liable not to benefit from the same treatment, there is a school of thought that certain diseases, especially some acute conditions, could be treated with substances or drug mixtures tailored to the disease characteristics alone. They add that such drugs are gaining popularity among large sections of the medical profession and also among the public who buy them over the counter.
Oscillococcinum - made of Anas Barbariae Hepatis and Cordis Extractum HPUS 200 C - is such a drug. The vehicle is made of lactose and saccharose and a placebo of identical appearance was made up consisting of lactose and saccharose alone. The study took place during an influenza epidemic. Patients who took part in the study were chosen from those attending GP surgeries with influenza-like syndromes, defined as a rectal temperature equal to or above 38° C or above and at least two of the following symptoms: headache, stiffness, lumbar and articular pain, shivers. Most of the participating GPs were not homeopathic clinicians.

The standard treatment is five doses of Oscillococcinum. The first was given at the medical practice and the patients took the remaining four on the following mornings and evenings. 237 patients received the test drug and 241 the placebo. They recorded their rectal temperature twice a day and the presence or absence of five cardinal symptoms (headache, stiffness, lumbar and articular pain, shivers) as well as cough, coryza and fatigue. Recovery was defined as a rectal temperature of less than 37.5° C and complete resolution of the cardinal symptoms.

The results showed that the proportion of patients who recovered within 48 hours of treatment was greater among the drug group than among the placebo group: 17.1% compared with 10.3% (P = 0.03).

The researchers say that the positive effect of the homeopathic preparation 'cannot be explained in our present state of knowledge' and they call for further investigation.

A repeat trial conducted by Papp et al was recently published in the British Homeopathic Journal (1998- 87). This showed that the symptoms of patients receiving Oscillococcinum were significantly milder (P = 0.023) after 48 hours than patients in the placebo group. The number of patients with no symptoms was significantly higher in the group receiving Oscillococcinum from the second day onwards (verum 17.4%, placebo 6.6%) until the end of the patients' recording.

E. Ernst, T. Saradeth, and K.L. Resch,
Complementary Treatment of Varicose Veins: A Randomized Placebo-controlled, Double-Blind Trial,
Phlebology, 1990, 5:157-163.

This study of 61 patients showed a 44% improvement in venous filling time in the homeopathic treated group when compared with placebo.

Treatment of acute childhood diarrhoea

(Jacobs J, Jimenez M, Gloyd S et al. Treatment of acute childhood diarrhoea with homoeopathic medicine: a randomised clinical trial in Nicaragua. Pediatrics 1994; 93: 719-725.)

Jacobs' work set out to discover whether homeopathic treatment was useful in the treatment of acute diarrhoea in children, the leading cause of paediatric morbidity and mortality.
This randomised double-blind trial took place in two clinics in poor districts of Nicaragua, a country where diarrhoea is the primary cause of mortality during the first year of life and accounts for 19% of all outpatient consultations in children aged from one to four years.

The researchers thought that acute childhood diarrhoea was an ideal condition for a homeopathic study because the short duration of illness would allow for intensive follow up, there was no standard allopathic treatment that would have to be withheld during the trial and the public health importance was great.
Eighty-one children aged between six months and five years took part. An initial history was taken for each child, a physical examination was carried out, a stool specimen obtained and a diarrhoea index score was assigned to each child. Children with type A or B dehydration were prescribed oral rehydration therapy. Those with type C were transferred to hospital and did not take part in the study.

The children were then given a homeopathic interview and examination. Information about the nature of stools, abdominal pain, vomiting, mood and temperature, degree of thirst and appetite, presence of fever, abdominal bloating, sleep disturbance, perspiration and other signs and symptoms was collected. Each child was then prescribed one homeopathic medication on an individual basis. Identical tablets without medication were used as a placebo. Follow up was daily for five days.

The treatment group had a statistically significant (P<.05) decrease in duration of diarrhoea, defined as the number of days until there were less than three unformed stools daily for two consecutive days. there was also a significant difference (P<.05) in the number of stools per day between the two groups after 72 hours of treatment.

The researchers conclude that homeopathic treatment might be useful in this condition and add that further study should be considered.

D. Reilly, M. Taylor, N. Beattie, et al.,

Is Evidence for Homoeopathy Reproducible?
Lancet, December 10, 1994, 344:1601-6.

This study successfully reproduced evidence from two previous double-blinded trials all of which used the same model of homeopathic immunotherapy in inhalant allergy. In this third study, 9 of 11 patients on homeopathic treatment improved compared to only 5 of 13 patients on placebo. The researchers concluded that either homeopathic medicines work or controlled studies don't. Their work has again be recently replicated and is submitted for publication. (See Is Homeopathy a Placebo Response? Lancet 1986, below.)

M. Weiser, W. Strosser, P. Klein,
Homeopathic vs. Conventional Treatment of Vertigo: A Randomized Double-Blind Controlled Clinical Study
Archives of Otolaryngology--Head and Neck Surgery, August, 1998, 124:879-885.

This was a study with 119 subjects with various types of vertigo, half of whom were given a homeopathic medicine (a combination of four homeopathic medicines) and half were given a leading conventional drug in Europe for vertigo, betahistine hydrochloride. The homeopathic medicines were found to be similarly effective and significantly safer than the conventional control.

-----------------

Here an interesting one comparing acetaminofen against a homeopathic product.

C. N. Shealy, MD, R.P. Thomlinson, V. Borgmeyer,
Osteoarthritic Pain: A Comparison of Homeopathy and Acetaminophen

American Journal of Pain Management, 1998;8:89-91
A double-blinded study to document the relative efficacy of homeopathic remedies in comparison to acetaminophen for the treatment of pain associated with osteoarthritis (OA) among 65 patients. An IRB approved protocol. Results of the study documented better pain relief in the homeopathic group (55% achieved measured relief from homeopathy as compared to 38% from acetaminophen); however, the superiority of this treatment, in comparison with the acetaminophen group, did not reach statistical significance. The investigators conclude that homeopathic treatments for pain in OA patients appear to be safe and at least as effective as acetaminophen, and are without its potential adverse effects including compromise to both liver and kidney function. Many of the patients asked to continue with the homeopathic treatment.

------------------

The problem is that in those so-called new tests, they are mixing products and giving to a full range of patients, thats against homeopathy practices, where for the same symptoms two different patients should be treated differently, and at least some studies admit they have been done against conventional homeopathic ways. Here one that admit it.

------------------

Background: Homeopathy involves the use, in dilution, of substances which cause symptoms in their undiluted form. It is one of the most widespread forms of complementary medicines and is also used to treat asthma.

Objectives: The objective of this review was to assess the effects of homeopathy in people with chronic stable asthma.
Search strategy: We searched the Cochrane Airways Group trials register, the Cochrane Complementary Medicine Field trials register, the Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital database, the Muenchener Modell database and reference lists of articles.
Selection criteria: Randomised and possibly randomised trials of homeopathy for the treatment of stable chronic asthma, with observation periods of at least one week.

Data collection and analysis: Data extraction was done by one reviewer and checked by the second reviewer. Trial quality was assessed by the reviewers.

Main results: Three trials with a total of 154 people were included. These trials were all placebo-controlled and double-blind, but of variable quality. They used three different homeopathic treatments which precluded quantitative pooling of results. The standardised treatments in these trials are unlikely to represent common homeopathic practice, where treatment tends to be individualised. In one trial, severity of symptoms was lessened in the homeopathy group compared to the placebo group. In another trial, lung function measures and medication use showed improvement in the homeopathy group compared to the placebo group. The third trial found improvement in both the homeopathy and placebo groups, but no difference between the groups.

Reviewers' conclusions: There is not enough evidence to reliably assess the possible role of homeopathy in asthma. As well as randomised trials, there is a need for observational data to document the different methods of homeopathic prescribing and how patients respond.

[This abstract has been prepared centrally].
Citation: Linde K, Jobst K A. Homeopathy for chronic asthma (Cochrane Review). In: The Cochrane Library, Issue 2 2003. Oxford: Update Software.

They admit it not being conventional homeopathy, but they still run the test, its like giving asprins for a lung infection, and admiting its wrong, but still runing the test to see any results. Thats how many of the tests have been run, they give few populair homeopathic products without studying their effects on different people, when a homeopath will try specific treatments for each individual patients, because for the same symtoms there may be 10 different products, and that only few would work for each patients.

You posted a meta analysis, here 3 other meta-analysis.

Kleijnen 1991

British Medical Journal. 107 trials. Criteria-based meta-analysis.
77% are positive
The higher the scientific merit of the study, the more likely it is to show homoeopathy as superior to placebo.
The evidence presented in this review would probably be sufficient for establishing homoeopathy as a regular treatment for certain conditions.

Boissel 1996

Report for European Commission. 15 trials. Very strict inclusion criteria. Meta-analysis; data synthesis by combining the significance levels (p-values) for the primary outcomes from each trial.
Combined p value for the 15 trials was highly significant p=0.0002.
' There is evidence that homeopathic medicine is more effective than placebo' .
Little evidence of publication bias.
Further high quality studies are needed.

Linde 1997

Lancet. 89 trials. Meta-analysis; data synthesis by combining the odds ratios.
Combined odds ratio 2.45 (95% CI 2.05, 2.93) in favour of homeopathy.

Odds ratio for 26 best quality studies was 1.66.
No evidence of significant publication bias.
The results are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo.
Further research is warranted.
---------------------------------------------------

Now lets refer to the study of meta-analysis you refered... this study has been published in 1997.
http://nhscrd.york.ac.uk/online/dare/978346.htm

The same I refered above, this same exact study was re-used 2-3 more time from the period between 1997-2001, as new studies, meta-analysis are not new records of data's, meta-analysis are the "packing" of previous studies to come up with new conclusions, remark you here that more than 50 % of conventional drugs used will fail in any meta-analysis tests because of the fact that results of the first double-blind placebo tests are based on the pharmacologic compagny that run the said study for its own product, this is why the ratio fall down to 1-2 in many and many cases when more indepdent studies are made. Now if we were to use your logic we should than conclude that conventional drugs have no better effects than placebo. Face it man, you are a total ignorant on the subject you decided to talk about, you just searched on the web for homeopathy just to pull my legs and show that you know of what you are talking about, I can refer you to studies of drugs where the difference between placebo and the actual drug if 4 % in the range of the "error margin" and when they are still prescribed, but when those other studies from meta-analysis find out that a homeopathic product scores about 10 % better than placebo they conclude it has no big difference comparing it with placebo, when a meta-analysis difference of 10 % has less error margin than those pharmacetical biased tests. WHat about aspirin reducing the risks of heart attack ? How many meta-analysis it took to make any significant differences, they had to test 15,000 people, to have few % bellow of the margin of error to conclude those effects.

The next time you want to talk about a subject, read a little and learn before rejecting it just for the pleasure to contradict your oppenements, as for to conclude, anyone having read a little about homeopathy, will know that homeopathy act in long term, and is not a supression medication for short term action, "headaches" medications in homeopathy are the same as the rest, it takes 2 weeks at minimum to have significant results, they are not like acetaminofens that just act waiting minutes. Of course everyone having done a little research about the subject would know.

PS: Skeptics aproachs every claims with skepticism, but skeptics also asks the same standrads for everything things, homeopathy from any standard tests used in conventional medecine past the test, while still people need more and more tests, and now pharmacological compagnies are financing those new tests... any skeptics will be skeptical of the results of the tests financed from those compagnies that will have more millions in their pockets discrediting homeopathy. As a skeptic, I am skeptic of the results of trials done from pharamacetical compagnies. On the other hand, when homeopathy still resists to all those under belt unfair manipulations, in my book the proof without dough has been established, because right now, I can bring you more indepdent studies discrediting often used drugs, then some homeopathic drugs.

I am a real skeptic, you simply are not, an advice to you, the next time before writing something, know the subject you want to discuss about. I can post here more studies, studies after studies, on animals and babies as well, I don,t think that there is such thing as placebo in animals, even if the so-called skeptic a.ss Randi something claim to.

Truly yours
 
Very simply, there are situations in which the body will 'over-adapt' to stresses posed on it. There are acceptable medical practices that use this theory. Homeopathy however, as an overarching view of medical care, is flawed because it is helpful only in limited cases... and harmful in others.
 
Nocebo effect: even if homeopathy in itself uses inert ingredients, it will still nocebo effects
Toxicity: Homeopathic proponents claim that no danger exists in taking the wrong medicine or too much. However, it doe not take into account that some toxic materials build up in the body
Too dilute: Homeopathy calls for diluting some toxic substances to such an extent that none of the active substance is actually left in a 'serving'.

The homeopathy enviroment as it exists today is mostly junk science. As I already said, while there are cases where it works, no reason exists to think that it is as overarching as proponents make it out to be. Homeopathy (like any other medical technique) needs to be tested on a disease-by-disease basis.
 
Originally posted by Persol
The point is that I can dream up any number of creation stories, but if it doesn't hold any water then why try to convince other people... or for that matter believe it?
Exactly, but if it did "hold water" you would have millions of people believing it
 
Originally posted by Voodoo Child
Actually it <i>hasn't</i> stood the test of time, been ridiculed and argued for two thousand years and it is still here, it is not going away.
Yes, faith has been ridicled and argued for centuries, by people more qualified to do so, and much more intellect than you or I.
There are places in the world (for eg.parts of, and around China) where people have been killed just for having faith, they didn't die for nothing, they weren't slaughtered for no reason. Faith is a powerful thing.
I'm not asking anyone to drop down on their knees and start praying, I'm not asking anyone to become religious. I'm not asking anyone of anything.
My point is that faith HAS stood the test of time and much more, and that is a fact. And because of this fact I can't just ignore it as a tooth fairy bedtime story.
 
Originally posted by stu43t
Exactly, but if it did "hold water" you would have millions of people believing it
The only difference between my story, and the Bible's story is that it is told more eloquently. Most people who follow religions don't realy know much about them and their theories. Just because an idea makes sense or doesn't has no effect on if a multitude of ignorant people will follow it.

Thousands of people followed Hitler, thousands have been in 'suicide religions', thousands used to do human sacrifices, etc etc....
 
Originally posted by stu43t
My point is that faith HAS stood the test of time and much more, and that is a fact. And because of this fact I can't just ignore it as a tooth fairy bedtime story.
Faith as a whole has, but as soon as you narrow your view to a single relgion your point is null and void.
 
Originally posted by stu43t
My point is that faith HAS stood the test of time and much more, and that is a fact.

Faith in WHAT stu?
Originally posted by stu43t

And because of this fact I can't just ignore it as a tooth fairy bedtime story.

You haven't established a clear fact stu. Are you sure you know what you're driving at. Did you notice it when I brought to your attention that faith is broader that religion? Which is it? Are you speaking of faith or religion?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're just speaking to the idea of "god". Is that fair? If so... what definition of god would you be speaking of? Hindu? Canadian (for humor)? Pigme? Christian? Do you think all christians have the same definition of god stu? What exactly is it that you're defending? Do you know for sure?
 
Yes, I know for sure what I mean by faith and God. I think you do too, but whatever I mention you are going to dismiss the idea, so whats the point.

I'll give you a clue "Abrahamic faith"
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by stu43t
Yes, I know for sure what I mean by faith and God.
I think you do too.
No, I wasn't sure.. that's why I asked.
Originally posted by stu43t

but whatever I mention you are going to dismiss the idea, so whats the point.
The point is your education. People have been kind enough to educate ME, thus I educate others. If you're really interested in learning something.. raith, persol, voodoo child and myself have given you interesting things to ponder. What's the point of you asking questions or making claims if you're not interested in what others have to say? I'm only discrediting what you're saying because it's convoluted.. thusly I'm attempting to illustrate WHY I deem it as such.
Originally posted by stu43t

I'll give you a clue "Abrahamic faith"

By what methodology do you determine "abrahamic faith" to be of more substance than the hindu thing, why not zues?
 
First off, please read the topic regarding SciForums cut-n-paste policy before posting entire pages of referenced work: http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16604

Now then, rather than attempting to address each of these studies individually I will address the Homeopathic paradigm as a whole. To put it succinctly, homeopathy as a methodology of determining treatment has not been found to be reliable.

Homeopathy does use 'treatments' and medicines that have proven efficacy. Various 'homeopathic' treatments have recognized medicinal benefits, sometimes for the disease/symptom as proscribed by homeopathy sometime for entirely different diseases/symptoms. The successful studies of homeopathy are those where the treatment does in fact address the disease/symptom and coincidentally happens to be 'homeopathic'.

The point of the matter is that the treatment's homeopathy appears to be coincidental as to whether any given treatment is efficacious. There is little to no evidence that the homeopathic method has any validity at all... this does not mean that no homeopathic treatments are effective.

Another point to understand is that homeopathic treatments are often herbal in nature. Unprocessed, herbs often contain a range of chemicals with various effects, often covering a range of diseases/symptoms. These herbal remedies are also often given in combinations. Additionally, many symptoms are similar across a spectrum of diseases (i.e. Many types of disease cause sweating and/or fever.) These facts often lead to a kind of shotgun affect whereby an herbal remedy often contains some remedial effect for a very broad range of symptoms covering an even broader range of disease.

Skeptics aproachs every claims with skepticism, but skeptics also asks the same standrads for everything things
I concur with the statement, if not the grammar.

homeopathy from any standard tests used in conventional medecine past the
any skeptics will be skeptical of the results of the tests financed from those compagnies
Which is why I look to peer-reviewed studies for my data. I do not accept private, un-reviewed studies as conclusive.

I am a real skeptic, you simply are not
Check my history here and then get back to me on that one. I do not believe that you are being critical enough of the studies you are pushing.

know the subject you want to discuss about. I can post here more studies, studies after studies
I seem to know enough to get you running to your sources... don't I.

All this said, I would point out that I am very much in favor of research into holistic and herbal remedies. Holistic approaches simply seem commonsensical to me and there are some very interesting facts within the tremendous amount of garbage regarding herbal medicine. Much of what homeopathic practitioners do I agree with and certainly there are cases where positive results are indicated but, as with chiropracty, the central methodology is unproven.

~Raithere
 
Originally posted by wesmorris
The point is your education.
My education is fine bud

and myself have given you interesting things to ponder.
SURE YOU HAVE:
Originally posted by wesmorris
you can see how fucking stupid it is.

Defend whatever ignorant bullshit you'd like.

Blame yourself if you can't tell the fucking difference, don't lay your stupid shit on me.

I like Persol's theory about unicorns.

Religion is when you make faith into a fucking cult.
AND ALSO:
Originally posted by Persol
My theory of the invisible unicorn.
You might think they are interesting things to ponder, but I don't

What's the point of you asking questions or making claims if you're not interested in what others have to say?
I am very interested in what others have to say, brainuniverse is one amongst others. They are much more interesting than reading your arrogant atheistic outlook, and your acknowledgement for beliefs in invisible unicorns


I'm only discrediting what you're saying because it's convoluted..
No, it's because your a strong atheist


thusly I'm attempting to illustrate WHY I deem it as such.
Sure you are, you've already said "you can see how fucking stupid it is.""Blame yourself if you can't tell the fucking difference, don't lay your stupid shit on me. "

Great Illustrations!


By what methodology do you determine "abrahamic faith" to be of more substance than the hindu thing, why not zues?
It's like this, an invisible unicorn flew into my garden and told me that the abrahamic faith is possibly true.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Persol
My theory of the invisible unicorn.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You might think they are interesting things to ponder, but I don't

And I thought you got what I was getting at, but you didn't. The point was that you can create any number of 'gods' each of which will have as little proof and logic behind it as the next. Unless you have a reason to believe one over the others, you are not in a place to make a good choice. That said, nobody has demonstrated any good reason to choose any specific faith. That is not to say that faith as a whole can't be trusted, but that blind faith can't.
 
Originally posted by Persol
And I thought you got what I was getting at
I know exactly what you were getting at, and as your bud wesmorris said:
Originally posted by wesmorris
don't lay your stupid shit on me.
I have to go now, it's time for me to pray and worship the invisible unicorn, I have to kneel in the direction of NW, and whistle the tune of "Good ship Venus" three times in E flat.
 
Raithere, I will here end my discussion about the subject with you, because in fact you have shown to not have at all any clue on what you are talking about. When I discuss about something, I read and research, and even try the thing in question. Homeopathy, is called homeopathy from its classification of dilutions > 1CH, at 1 CH and lower it is known as a "phito" type of medcine, and when the dilution than is less than the 1/2 portion, is known to be a natural therapy. So the "coincidentally" is plainly and clearly wrong, because what is called a homeopathic product is its process of dilution and not the "coincidentallity" of the benefits in other illnesses. For example, if by accident a "homeopathic" dillution of acetaminophen is known to treat an illess, the treatment ill be called homeopathic because of the dilution process of higher than 1 CH. Coincidence is hat made homeopathy, and this is how homeopathy evolved, they try many products, and than compare them, each homeopathic product may treat dozens and dozens of conditions, and if by "accident" another condition is treated, than this "coincidentallity" is added in the list and trialed, thats what is called an experience, an experienced homeopath will have a list of those trials and will add them and refer them to a homeopathic association that will conduct few studies to find out the results.

NOw, for a last note, many herbal products contain various chimicals of course, but in the homeopathic world those chimicals are broken in modern homeopathy, as much as possible, there is nothing wrong ith that, a treatment work or not, be it coincidential or not, be it what ever you want to call it, it must be tested indepdently and not be biased, it must not be conducted by biased institutions and financed by compagnies that have as aim to discredit the product in question.

My prescription guide of drugs here, show me that many drugs have many uses that sound compleatly none-related... here just I will open the book and chose few, where ever by accident I will open those pages.

By accident, I came to the pages of the drug "Imipramine"

Here are the conditions that it appear to treat. Neuroses, depression, childhood bedwetting, chronic pain, cocaine withdrawal, ADD, Panic attacks, binge eating, bulimia etc...(they give few other uses). So like you can remark yourself, it has been commercialised for one condition and from "coincidantal" effects, the same drug later was used to treat other conditions.

Here, another picking,

Timolol

Anti-anginal, anti-glaucoma, anti-hypertensive, migraine headaches, myocardial infraction, afraid of airplanes, hyperintraocular pressure, detached retinas treatments etc...

I just picked them with a "closed eyes" I could very well have chosen selectivly others with many unrelated uses.

Conventional drugs are exactlly like homeopathic treatments when you consider that the same product may treat other conditions, this is how it is.

I would now continue my discussion about the "chimical" mixture, because I think that it is important to clarify, in a homeopathic product, it is so much diluted, that the concentration of the "bases" product is nearly the only left in the "alchol" or "water" medium, so claiming that it is just an accident because of those many chimicals that there could be in, is simple ignorance, because at 6 CH and higher, there is pratically no substance left other than the microtraces of the first molecule in question.

To conclude, acetaminophen and many current used treatments have no better than 10 % differences with placebo in some tests, failing even more than many homeopathic products... would you rase your voice the same way you do for homeopathy ? I ask honesty.
 
Originally posted by stu43t
I know exactly what you were getting at, and as your bud wesmorris said: don't lay your stupid shit on me.
Well if you don't fell like trying to address the issue in an intelligent way so be it.
 
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