How is prayer supposed to work?

[Jan Ardena]

As Jan points out, he believes it just happens by magic.

Liar Liar, pants on fire!

See how they run for shelter, and lie through their teeth, so they can maintain their delusion.

Jan.

 

[Michael 345]

Interesting. I'll look for that study. As an agnostic, that's the result I would have expected. It would be interesting to know how devout the people doing the praying were.

But this still isn't my question. I want to know how it is supposed to work according to those who believe it works. I can't get a straight answer to that.

https://www.quora.com/qemail/track_...766073&stories=4104077436&uid=LGxX9t21OZT&v=0

Again I think this is a example of prayer supposedly working and again no indication of how it works

I sort of share your frustration but at the end of the day I really don't believe in supernatural magic which then fits with there is no there there to work

Why can't you see a invisible dragons? Would it be because they are not there?

Keep the non faith but if you do find dragons please let me know I would love to see one

 

[BlueSky]

I recently received an email from a relative saying that he was praying for me (to get well). It got me thinking. Will his prayers affect my prognosis? If so, how? Will god be more likely to speed my healing process because someone prayed for me? If I had more people praying for me, would I get better more quickly? If so, isn't the system rigged? What about people who have fewer or no people to pray for them?

And if prayer will not affect god's behavior, then what's the point?

Good question Jennifer.

Prayer is just like any communication. We talk to people, and God likes it when we talk to Him. He’s hear our every thought and word.

When our requests line up with what God wants or likes, He is more likely to reply. He has a plan, and is willing to help in fruition of this plan. He does not answer always the way we want, but he does answer. Even a non answer is an answer, when the totality of scripture is consider. I’ve seen this happen more times than I can count. The key is to know his will is from scripture. That’s the starting point. If we don’t know scripture we don’t know his will or the big picture is. Scripture is his message to us.

Our obedience is paramount as well. Before anyone gets too excited about that statement, consider this analogy.

Is a parent more likely to answer or give a child what they want if they are being good and following house rules? Yes.

Is a parent more likely to give a child something if their requests line up with the family plan. Yes.

If your heart is in the right place, the parent is far more likely to help said child.

Most only ask when times are bad, I am guilty of this. I think if we are being honest, we all do this. How would you feel if your child only came to you, in times of need and trouble, ignoring your relationship ?

Hope this helps, comments/questions welcome.

 

[Jennifer Murphy]

When our requests line up with what God wants or likes, He is more likely to reply. He has a plan, and is willing to help in fruition of this plan. He does not answer always the way we want, but he does answer. Even a non answer is an answer, when the totality of scripture is consider. I’ve seen this happen more times than I can count. The key is to know his will is from scripture. That’s the starting point. If we don’t know scripture we don’t know his will or the big picture is. Scripture is his message to us.

Thanks, BlueSky, for the thoughtful reply. (I was about to abbreviate your name, but, well, ...)

My question is not about whether god answers prayer, but if prayer works. Let me see if I can clarify.

I am specifically and exclusively asking about prayer by one person for the benefit of another. If Person A prays that Person B will get better, what happens? Does B actually get better and, if so, how does that work?

Most (all?) of your examples appear to be about a person praying for themselves -- that is, for something that they want for themselves. I am not interested in that. Can you shed any light on the situation above where A prays for B.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Does B actually get better

No. (And, in some studies the prayed-for actually got worse).

 

[BlueSky]

Thanks, BlueSky, for the thoughtful reply. (I was about to abbreviate your name, but, well, ...)

My question is not about whether god answers prayer, but if prayer works. Let me see if I can clarify.

I am specifically and exclusively asking about prayer by one person for the benefit of another. If Person A prays that Person B will get better, what happens? Does B actually get better and, if so, how does that work?

Most (all?) of your examples appear to be about a person praying for themselves -- that is, for something that they want for themselves. I am not interested in that. Can you shed any light on the situation above where A prays for B.

Hi Jennifer, I will try and explain.

We can pray intercessory prays for people. Many examples of this in the Bible. Think it of this way.

Imagine if you worked in a major company and were VERY close to the CEO.

One day, you asked him or her to help another employee with something. If the CEO liked you very much, they would be more inclined to do what you asked, if it was within their power to do so, and even more so, if it aligned with the companies mission. Make sense?

Same idea with God.

 

[BlueSky]

No. (And, in some studies the prayed-for actually got worse).

Yes, the reality is, we always don’t get want we want. God sees the big picture. He works every out in the end for those who love him, and sometimes this does not align with what we want. Same idea with kids, they ask, but we see the big picture.

Romans 8:28
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good have been called according to his purpose.

 

[Dywyddyr]

[QUOTE="BlueSky"]Romans 8:28
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good have been called according to his purpose.[/quote]
And that quote sort of wrecks the idea of intercessionary prayer.
IF the request is in line with the "purpose" then it's granted, otherwise not.
But, equally, if the outcome is in line with that "purpose" then the praying isn't required at all.

Given this "purpose"[sup]1[/sup] then prayer itself is moot.

1 Plus, of course, that "purpose" would include suffering, joy and everything else including some individuals being atheist/ believers of - according to you - the wrong religion. (And thereby damned from the get-go). Nice, really nice.

 

[Jennifer Murphy]

Imagine if you worked in a major company and were VERY close to the CEO.

One day, you asked him or her to help another employee with something. If the CEO liked you very much, they would be more inclined to do what you asked, if it was within their power to do so, and even more so, if it aligned with the companies mission. Make sense?

Same idea with God.

OK, thanks. Let me see if I have this right. Are you saying that God will act on my prayer on behalf of my friend if (a) He likes me very much and (b) it is aligned with His overall plan? If so, I have a couple of follow up questions:

1. Doesn't God love all of us "very much"?
2. Does he love some of us more than others? And, if so, is he more likely to grant requests (on behalf of others) from those he loves more?

May I ask if you are a member of an organized religion and, if so, which one, and, if not, what your general faith is?

 

[Sarkus]

So basically it works via selection bias, and through unfalsifiable processes... if it works, that's evidence of prayer working... if it doesn't then that's God seeing the big picture that we can't see?

 

[DaveC426913]

Liar Liar, pants on fire!
See how they run for shelter, and lie through their teeth, so they can maintain their delusion.

No, you answered with magic. Look:

... how do you believe it works?

Because God allows it to

Jennifer asked how it works. Your response contains no how whatever; it's simply because.

That's magical. The fact that you attribute magical activity to God makes it no less magical.


What you would have needed to do, Jan, to address Jennifer's question, is describe the mechanism by which God hears prayers and decides how to dole out fixes. Which ones? What criteria? How soon? etc. That's what she's after.
But you don't have those answers, as you admitted.

 

[Jennifer Murphy]

So basically it works via selection bias, and through unfalsifiable processes... if it works, that's evidence of prayer working... if it doesn't then that's God seeing the big picture that we can't see?

I would appreciate it if people would not attack and belittle the answers from those who believe. I am not interested in proving anyone right or wrong. I just want to understand how those who believe see it. If those of us who do not believe belittle those who do, it will be much harder for them to participate in the discussion.

Thanks

 

[DaveC426913]

I would appreciate it if people would not attack and belittle the answers from those who believe.

Well, this is a science forum. It is our right and responsibility to call out flawed logic, should we encounter it. Unfalsifiability is a keystone of rational analysis.

I grant that may not be the kind of answer that's useful to you, but you can't fault people on a science discussion forum for answering in-kind.

 

[Jennifer Murphy]

Well, this is a science forum. It is our right and responsibility to call out flawed logic, should we encounter it. Unfalsifiability is a keystone of rational analysis.

A couple of points:

1. If you were doing a peer-review of a scientific paper, then absolutely, fire away. No holds barred. This is not that.
   
2. I asked how people "believe" things work. I am collecting data. If you were an anthropologist doing research on some primitive Amazonian tribe and you "called them out" every time they did something unscientific, you would never get valid data about their culture and beliefs.
3. There is a big difference between asking questions and belittling. This is my thread. If you want to belittle what people believe, do it somewhere else.

I grant that may not be the kind of answer that's useful to you, but you can't fault people on a science discussion forum for answering in-kind.

Yes, I can, and I just did. Besides, you did not answer "in kind". BlueSky's comments seemed sincere to me and he never once attacked or belittled atheists or even religion haters. I believe he was trying his best to answer my questions. I sincerely hope that you have not thrown a monkey wrench into the works.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Jennifer asked how it works. Your response contains no how whatever; it's simply because.

How did I answer with, “magic”?

That's magical. The fact that you attribute magical activity to God makes it no less magical.

What magical activity have I attributed to God?

What you would have needed to do, Jan, to address Jennifer's question, is describe the mechanism by which God hears prayers and decides how to dole out fixes.

Telll her to ask herself how she would hear a request/prayer, and how she would decide to dole out fixes. Then tell her to learn about God,
After that, tell her to get back to me.

I have a feeling she won’t do that, because she is only interested in increasing her denial and rejection,

I can see her coming a mile off,

Which ones?

Elaborate.

What criteria?

Don’t know what you’re talking about.

How soon? etc.

At a time of God’s choosing.

That's what she's after.

No she’s not.

But you don't have those answers, as you admitted.

I could take it to another level, but there is no need, because there is no real inquiry.

I think her interest in prayer, and God are suspect, or she would gladly answer my questions, if it meant there is a chance she could become enlightened.

Jan.

 

[Jennifer Murphy]

What you would have needed to do, Jan, to address Jennifer's question, is describe the mechanism by which God hears prayers and decides how to dole out fixes. Which ones? What criteria? How soon? etc. That's what she's after.
But you don't have those answers, as you admitted.

I think you are, as my mother, in her colorful rural lingo used to say, "trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear". I originally thought Jan was sincere and had something useful to offer, but since her first post, she has gone completely off the rails. Nothing she says even makes sense. Now I suspect that she is just a troll and I will have nothing further to do with her/him/it.

 

[Seattle]

If God likes you and you are praying for a child with cancer he may cure the cancer if he likes the kid or he may let cancer kill the kid if that fit into his greater plan. It's simple.

 

[DaveC426913]

1. There is a big difference between asking questions and belittling. This is my thread. If you want to belittle what people believe, do it somewhere else.

Other than Jan, where have I done this? I'm not deliberately trying to derail the thread.

 

[DaveC426913]

How did I answer with, “magic”

The question was "how does it work". Your answer was "because it does." That's not a "how" answer; that's magic.

I think her interest in prayer, and God are suspect, or she would gladly answer my questions

Indeed. Your questions are judgemental - and biased - to believers like yourself: "Do you accept God?" etc. You're preaching, not discussing.

I will respect Jennifer's desire to not engage in this with you.

 

[DaveC426913]

I originally thought Jan was sincere and had something useful to offer, but since her first post, she has gone completely off the rails.

BTW, not germane to the discussion, but Jan self-identifies as a he.