How do you understand the Koranic sign...?

[Michael]

Well, then why should we bother about a 'never-happening' /'non-existing' event ? What is your point ? Are you questioning His omnipotency for not able to do a 'mistake' ?!

My point is as a concept to "KNOW ALL" and "DO ANYTHING" is oxymoron. Therefore the idea of God is oxymoronic.

Lets make it simple, could you PLEASE go down through the list of questions I have offered, answering each one with a one word answer of either a “YES” or a “NO”?

1. Is God omniscient (all Knowing)?
2. Are you omniscient?

3. Is God all omnipotent?
4. Are you omnipotent?

5. Does God change?
6. Do you change?
7. Can God change?

8. Does God love?
9. Do you love?
10. Can God love?

11. Does God hate?
12. Do you hate?
13. Can God hate?

14. Can God be ignorant (unknowing)?
15. Can you be ignorant (unknowing)?

16. Can God learn something new?
17. Can you learn something new?

18. Can god think (as a process)?
19. Can you think?

20. Can God create a round square out of a straight wooden chopstick in a way you perceive as round square yet not change the chopstick in any way perceivable to you?

21. Is it possible for God to be powerless?
22. Is it possible for you to be powerless?

23. Can God create a universe not created by God?

 

[everneo]

My point is as a concept to "KNOW ALL" and "DO ANYTHING" is oxymoron. Therefore the idea of God is oxymoronic.

I take your statements as "Omniscience & Omnipotence is oxymoron".
While Omniscience is "Knowing ALL", Omnipotence is "Potential to do anything" would be more correct than "Actually do anything". In that sense, "actually do anything" may not suit God as an attribute. Like anyone else God has a potential to rape a kid, but would he do that ?. I think He would never abuse his potency. That does not invalidate omniscience and omnipotence to co-exist.

Lets make it simple, could you PLEASE go down through the list of questions I have offered, answering each one with a one word answer of either a “YES” or a “NO”?

1. Is God omniscient (all Knowing)? - YES
2. Are you omniscient? - NO

3. Is God all omnipotent? - YES
4. Are you omnipotent? - NO

5. Does God change? - YES ( in our perception ) ; NO (as change has no significance for Him.)
6. Do you change? - YES
7. Can God change? - Don't Know whether He would decide to Change or Not. If he choose to change nothing can prevent him.

8. Does God love? - YES, by nature
9. Do you love? - No, at present
10. Can God love? - YES

11. Does God hate? - No, i presume Hatred is a weakness out of frustration/inability.
12. Do you hate? - No, at present.
13. Can God hate? - Don't know as in (7)

14. Can God be ignorant (unknowing)? - No
15. Can you be ignorant (unknowing)? - Yes

16. Can God learn something new? - No, he is omniscience, nothing to learn.
17. Can you learn something new? - Yes

18. Can god think (as a process)? - No need.
19. Can you think? - Yes, whenever it is necessary

20. Can God create a round square out of a straight wooden chopstick in a way you perceive as round square yet not change the chopstick in any way perceivable to you?
If he does i would not be able to know that. I am restricted by the rules of my reality and by my ability/disability to percieve things. If God gives me extra, special dimensions to percieve, i might be able to see that.

21. Is it possible for God to be powerless? - Yes, in our perception, it appears so right now.
22. Is it possible for you to be powerless? - Yes, ofcourse.

23. Can God create a universe not created by God? - This a play of words. It cannot map with either reality or logic.

 

[Tiassa]

Does our calling something as mistake make it really a mistake? Or is it our mistake to assume that there may be really a mistake?

Depends on if there's any such thing as right and wrong, or good and evil.

Generally speaking, though, dead ends abound. To take, for instance, the Bible and look at potential "mistakes", one sequence of "mistakes" is at the heart of faith: Creation, sin, redemption. The general argument there is whether or not a compassionate or loving God would choose to put humanity through it all. One would have a more reliable argument, though, to say that God has no other choice. But neither dispassion nor impotence are among God's celebrated aspects.

In terms of the Quran, the infidels need only ask: Is God cruel? What are the limitations of God's power?

If God does not make mistakes, then God wills any given suffering because it is important to an outcome. If God makes mistakes ... well, in that case, Pandora's box needs a douche.

 

[Sufi]

Depends on if there's any such thing as right and wrong, or good and evil.

If some good befalls them, they say, "this is from Allah"; but if evil, they say, "this is from you" (O Prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah." But what has come to these people, that they fail to understand a single fact? (the Koran, 4:78)

I think you missed the following part in my previous post:

What is a mistake? Is it a label on any event or is it just a judgment we make up in our minds?

All things are from Allah, the same one source... Your judgments of good and evil belong to you only and the result of your judgment applies to you alone.

The concepts of good and evil, mistake or take can be valid for you and you can apply them to an image of god but they are not valid in the sight of the one wholeness of Allah and they cannot be considered along with the understanding of Allah.

Allah is in a new fashion at every moment. It is ony us who call and label the events as good or evil, take or mistake depending on our perspective, which are all relational and have no basis in turth.

 

[Tiassa]

I think you missed the following part in my previous post:

Nope. I can't say I did miss that.

Your judgments of good and evil belong to you only and the result of your judgment applies to you alone.

I agree, but there's no way we can call that agreed opinion definitive. There are plenty who would disagree, and unless we actually know the true nature of God, there's no way to put the issue to rest.

Allah is in a new fashion at every moment. It is ony us who call and label the events as good or evil, take or mistake depending on our perspective, which are all relational and have no basis in turth.

And when God turns His queer eye to humanity, it is all as He wills, and thus is all Good. The trick is for humanity to figure out what that means, and judging by the state of things, we'll be about it for a while, at least.

 

[Sufi]

And when God turns His queer eye to humanity, it is all as He wills, and thus is all Good. The trick is for humanity to figure out what that means, and judging by the state of things, we'll be about it for a while, at least.

Do you mean that you are here judging God that if He makes mistake even though He thinks He is doing all Good?


edited to add:


Otherwise, the question must be here "if the version of god in my mind make a mistake or not?".

Any answers to this, will the same way be applied to the image of god in the questioner's mind only without any basis in reality.

In this case, then what about simply trying to give up depending on our perspectives and judgments and also our belief of an image of God that thinks and observes the things the same way as a man does that we have sculpted in our minds based on our conditionings, but try rather our best to understand what is referred to as Allah in order to be able to think and observe the same way as ALLAH does (that is, through the eye of the truth of whole Oneness)?..

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I take your statements as "Omniscience & Omnipotence is oxymoron".
While Omniscience is "Knowing ALL", Omnipotence is "Potential to do anything" would be more correct than "Actually do anything". In that sense, "actually do anything" may not suit God as an attribute. Like anyone else God has a potential to rape a kid, but would he do that ?. I think He would never abuse his potency. That does not invalidate omniscience and omnipotence to co-exist.

To expand on this point.

Hadith Qudsi 17:
On the authority of Abu Dharr al-Ghifari (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (PBUH) is that among the sayings he relates from his Lord (may He be glorified) is that He said:

O My servants, I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another. O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance of Me and I shall guide you, O My servants, all of you are hungry except for those I have fed, so seek food of Me and I shall feed you. O My servants, all of you are naked except for those I have clothed, so seek clothing of Me and I shall clothe you. O My servants, you sin by night and by day, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness of Me and I shall forgive you. O My servants, you will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and will not attain benefitting Me so as to benefit Me. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one man of you, that would not increase My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one man of you, that would not decrease My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in one place and make a request of Me, and were I to give everyone what he requested, that would not decrease what I have, any more that a needle decreases the sea if put into it. O My servants, it is but your deeds that I reckon up for you and then recompense you for, so let him finds good praise Allah and let him who finds other that blame no one but himself.

It was related by Muslim (also by at-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah).

When adressing attributes and states such as love and hate and learning ..etc one has to remember that that attribute or state is not the same as the one that occurs in our realm.

042 ash.Shura (counsil, consulation)

verse 011:
YUSUFALI: (He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things).

PICKTHAL: The Creator of the heavens and the earth. He hath made for you pairs of yourselves, and of the cattle also pairs, whereby He multiplieth you. Naught is as His likeness; and He is the Hearer, the Seer.

SHAKIR: The Originator of the heavens and the earth; He made mates for you from among yourselves, and mates of the cattle too, multiplying you thereby; nothing like a likeness of Him; and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.


:m:

 

[Michael]

It still stands that we mere humans can do things almighty god can not.

 

[Sufi]

It still stands that we mere humans can do things almighty god can not.

What if God is not separated from you?

 

[Michael]

What if God is not separated from you?

Good point, then why the need for a supernatural? Why not just stick with the natural and observable and leave god completely out of the equation?

 

[Sufi]

Good point, then why the need for a supernatural? Why not just stick with the natural and observable and leave god completely out of the equation?

Yes, why?

Why not leave god completely out of the equation and try to understand the System of life through understanding what is natural and observable?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

What if God is not separated from you?

He is. He created us. He created us. He created us.

I am not saying it trice(?) to proof it. I want you to think about the implications of those three words.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Yes, why?

Why not leave god completely out of the equation and try to understand the System of life through understanding what is natural and observable?

Fussilat (explained in detail).

verse.019

YUSUFALI: On the Day that the enemies of Allah will be gathered together to the Fire, they will be marched in ranks.

PICKTHAL: And (make mention of) the day when the enemies of Allah are gathered unto the Fire, they are driven on

SHAKIR: And on the day that the enemies of Allah shall be brought together to the fire, then they shall be formed into groups.

My questions:

1-Do you believe in the Qur'an?
2-Do you believe those verses are in the Qur'an?
3-If Allah is existence, who are His enemies? Are they not human?

:m:

 

[Sufi]

(He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things).

there is nothing whatever like unto "ALLAH"... except "GOD"???

 

[Sufi]

He is. He created us. He created us. He created us.

I am not saying it trice(?) to proof it. I want you to think about the implications of those three words.

Do not worry, brucely! Let your God be separated from you

But "Allah is closer to you than your life vein"! Closer than your life vein! It does not mean as close as your life vein!!! It means: Closer!.. Closer!.. Closer!..

Think well about the implications of those three words.

 

[Sufi]

bruce, do not worry! Islam is not in need of your protection! It can protect itself, don't worry!

Yet, you are in need of protecting yourslef and understanding Islam truly is the only way for you. Therefore focus on simply making investigations, researches and reading and learning more to develop to understand it truly, rather than fighting against others whose thoughts sound different to you.

 

[Sufi]

who are His enemies? Are they not human?

But there are among men, those who take instead idle tales to lead astray from Allah's path without knowledge; and to take it for a mockery...

...when the revelations are recited to such a one he turns away in pride as if he heard them not, as if there is a deafness in his both ears. (Loqman: 6-7)

 

[Bruce Wayne]

there is nothing whatever like unto "ALLAH"... except "GOD"???

However poor the term is, it serves to make a bridge towards those not well educated about Islam. Allah is indeed the term. But this is irrelevant in out discussion.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

bruce, do not worry! Islam is not in need of your protection! It can protect itself, don't worry!

I know.

Call me incorrigible, But I view it as a challenge to help logic penetrate your mind.

Yet, you are in need of protecting yourslef and understanding Islam truly is the only way for you. Therefore focus on simply making investigations, researches and reading and learning more to develop to understand it truly, rather than fighting against others whose thoughts sound different to you.

Why the defensive attitude? I asked a question. Why does it make you feel threatened?

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

But there are among men, those who take instead idle tales to lead astray from Allah's path without knowledge; and to take it for a mockery...

...when the revelations are recited to such a one he turns away in pride as if he heard them not, as if there is a deafness in his both ears. (Loqman: 6-7)

You mean that I turn away in pride when the word of Allah is recited. ROGLEO!

Dude I would to bet my arm that I listen to it more than you do. And that I think about it and contemplate it (myself) when hearing it (directly, in arabic, without ahmed baki). Btw can you understand Arabic??

Themoreso, I think the verses refer to the likes of you. BEcause; you keep coming up with ahmed baki idle tales and because you do not like to have the Qur'an as proof between us. You decline to give your references and instead pick words and draw your spin around them. And when I call you to the Qur'an your feelings are hurt.

Btw you have not answered my questions.

:m:

p.s: I see that you have started to add the reference, that is progress. Now for the second lesson, Quote the entire verse.