How do you understand the Koranic sign...?
- Thread starter Sufi
- Start date
surenderer
Registered Senior Member
Sufi said:
"closer to his jugular/life vein" indicates NOT ONLY Omniscience, but also omnipresence (2:115) and Omnipotence (2:20) as well. God is everywhere. He knows all, and can do all. He has no need for angels, or anyone else (29:6) to carry out any tasks in the universe. He can do them all.It means there is nothing we cant hid from him and we will have to account for it all one day in front of him :m:
He knows all and can do anything huh?surenderer said:
Well well, I can show you a few things you can do that God can't do!!
pretty neat huh?
- - you can "think rationally"! By your definition God can't!!
cool beans aye!?!
- - you can learn too! God can’t!
Wow!
- - you can NOT know something!
- - you can be powerless!
bla bla bla bla . .. . etcetera . . . oo
I was wondering?
Can God make a mistake? YOU did say god can do ANYTHING right?
Can God make a round square using one chop stick without changing it in any way? YOU did say CAN DO ALL!!
Of course the answer is yes yes yes and as that is the case then my last question is: Can god create a universe NOT created by God?
Yes yes and big fat YES!!
psss . . guess what? . . .. . we’re in it
surenderer
Registered Senior Member
Michael said:He knows all and can do anything huh?
Well well, I can show you a few things you can do that God can't do!!
pretty neat huh?
- - you can "think rationally"! By your definition God can't!!
cool beans aye!?!
- - you can learn too! God can’t!
Wow!
- - you can NOT know something!
- - you can be powerless!
bla bla bla bla . .. . etcetera . . . oo
I was wondering?
Can God make a mistake? YOU did say god can do ANYTHING right?
Can God make a round square using one chop stick without changing it in any way? YOU did say CAN DO ALL!!
Of course the answer is yes yes yes and as that is the case then my last question is: Can god create a universe NOT created by God?
Yes yes and big fat YES!!
psss . . guess what? . . .. . we’re in it
You see Micheal the problem is that you are defining God by your definition. You (as a human) only use about 10% of your total brain capacity, yet you think you can grasp the concept of God . If you lived a couple hundred years ago and we had these forums and we were talking about airplanes or spaceships Im sure you would(since you have such a strong grasp on the universe and everything in it) be just as cynical yet you would be wrong wouldnt you? All I know is that God says "BE" and it is....simple as that....to me thats no more ridiculous than believing everything happens be chance
Surenderer, Hi
(B) And, I’ll repeat, I was using YOUR definitions of God, Not mine.
Yours.
YOU defined God and thus YOU think you know God – not me – you.
I don’t believe in Gods and so I have no definitions for them.
But using YOUR definitions of ALL powerful and ALL knowing and CAN DO ANYTHING I reached a conclusion that to meet all three of those obligations as YOU defined GOD is impossible. To come to this conclusion yourself just simply try to answer the questions I posited about the God as YOU have defined.
Surenderer can God, as you defined, make a mistake?
Can you?
(1) Is your belief in God such that you can not even attempt to answer the questions I posited? Will God punish you if you do? Is that the kind of God you worship? One the dosn’t love you enough to even allow you to think about it? And you want to spend eternity (after you die of course) with this thing?
(2) Is it a fear of coming to a conclusion that doesn’t fit well with how you have been taught to think of God?
(3) They are rather simple questions are they not? And they are based on YOUR (not my) definitions of God. So will you give it a try and answer my questions? If not then I must assume that deep down you know the answer you will arrive at: That it’s all as most everyone here says – bedtime stories from tribal peoples that really no long exist, as such the relevancy of these myths is all but gone, there are no Gods.
I’m sure if we lived in ancient Roma you may be telling us of the attributes of worshipping Jove over other the Gods – and, as you put it, you would be wrong wouldn’t you?
I have another question, I hope it isn’t cynical of me to ask. If you were born in India today and raised a devote Hindu and taught to believe and worship and sing praises and send prayers to Lord Shiva, or Ganesh or Garuda as perhaps an average Hindu may, would you most likely live your life as a devote Hindu? What about ancient Japanese Shinto? Ancient Buddhist?
PS: The side point here is you a diverting from my questions and making incorrect correlations. The correct correlation is that you would believe in the Gods as you are taught to believe in the time and place of your birth.
My questions would be relevant either now or a hundred years or a hundred millennia ago.
It’s just as simple to say aliens put humans here or to say the ancient pantheon Gods put us here, etcetera.
The difference here is that the theories of abiogenesis are peoples attempt to explain life using the scientific method. Many years ago people thought that rain was from the Gods - to say otherwise was ludicrous (and maybe even heresy). Now we understand it’s just a series of physical phenomena and have nothing to do with Gods. That isn’t to say we know EVERYTHING about the act of rain. The theories are refined and get better and better – that’s science.
The same is being done to understand how life came about. And these are based on real world physical phenomena. That isn’t the same as saying everything is chance. As a matter of fact it isn’t just chance at all. It has to do with something opposite to pure chance – selection. And if you go to the grocery store you’ll see that by selection you end up paying and getting what you want much more easily than just sending in someone to randomly select things off the shelve for you huh? I bet on most days you only pay for what you select!
Selection is a bit better than pure chance wouldn’t you say!?!?!
(A) I was using YOUR definitions of God.surenderer said:
(A) Humans use 100% of their brain (I’m a doctor of developmental neuroscience)surenderer said:
(B) And, I’ll repeat, I was using YOUR definitions of God, Not mine.
Yours.
YOU defined God and thus YOU think you know God – not me – you.
I don’t believe in Gods and so I have no definitions for them.
But using YOUR definitions of ALL powerful and ALL knowing and CAN DO ANYTHING I reached a conclusion that to meet all three of those obligations as YOU defined GOD is impossible. To come to this conclusion yourself just simply try to answer the questions I posited about the God as YOU have defined.
Surenderer can God, as you defined, make a mistake?
Can you?
(1) Is your belief in God such that you can not even attempt to answer the questions I posited? Will God punish you if you do? Is that the kind of God you worship? One the dosn’t love you enough to even allow you to think about it? And you want to spend eternity (after you die of course) with this thing?
(2) Is it a fear of coming to a conclusion that doesn’t fit well with how you have been taught to think of God?
(3) They are rather simple questions are they not? And they are based on YOUR (not my) definitions of God. So will you give it a try and answer my questions? If not then I must assume that deep down you know the answer you will arrive at: That it’s all as most everyone here says – bedtime stories from tribal peoples that really no long exist, as such the relevancy of these myths is all but gone, there are no Gods.
I asked questions, how is the cynical?surenderer said:
I’m sure if we lived in ancient Roma you may be telling us of the attributes of worshipping Jove over other the Gods – and, as you put it, you would be wrong wouldn’t you?
I have another question, I hope it isn’t cynical of me to ask. If you were born in India today and raised a devote Hindu and taught to believe and worship and sing praises and send prayers to Lord Shiva, or Ganesh or Garuda as perhaps an average Hindu may, would you most likely live your life as a devote Hindu? What about ancient Japanese Shinto? Ancient Buddhist?
PS: The side point here is you a diverting from my questions and making incorrect correlations. The correct correlation is that you would believe in the Gods as you are taught to believe in the time and place of your birth.
My questions would be relevant either now or a hundred years or a hundred millennia ago.
The awser you’ve arrived at is indeed very simple. God did it. When lightning strikes – God's mad, when life occurs - God did it, when rain happens - God’s crying, yes very simple.surenderer said:
It’s just as simple to say aliens put humans here or to say the ancient pantheon Gods put us here, etcetera.
You seem to be referring to abiogenesis here (over, say, evolution which is occuring on organisms that are “already living”, and is a fact).surenderer said:
The difference here is that the theories of abiogenesis are peoples attempt to explain life using the scientific method. Many years ago people thought that rain was from the Gods - to say otherwise was ludicrous (and maybe even heresy). Now we understand it’s just a series of physical phenomena and have nothing to do with Gods. That isn’t to say we know EVERYTHING about the act of rain. The theories are refined and get better and better – that’s science.
The same is being done to understand how life came about. And these are based on real world physical phenomena. That isn’t the same as saying everything is chance. As a matter of fact it isn’t just chance at all. It has to do with something opposite to pure chance – selection. And if you go to the grocery store you’ll see that by selection you end up paying and getting what you want much more easily than just sending in someone to randomly select things off the shelve for you huh? I bet on most days you only pay for what you select!
Selection is a bit better than pure chance wouldn’t you say!?!?!
surenderer said:
Omnipresent, that is present in everywhere...
Is the Omnipresent still present in where "you" occupy in space, for instance, is the Omnipresent still present in the same chair at which you sit?
If yes, what does Omnipresent mean? A second hidden layer of existence?
surenderer
Registered Senior Member
Micheal,
My apologies if I took your comments outta context
I will bow out to your knowledge on the subject then but answer me this....If thats the case then why did it take thousands and thousands of years to devolop cars and airplanes etc?......We surely arent at the end of our evolution cycle so can you say for a fact that I am wrong and you are right?
My apologies if I took your comments outta context
I will bow out to your knowledge on the subject then but answer me this....If thats the case then why did it take thousands and thousands of years to devolop cars and airplanes etc?......We surely arent at the end of our evolution cycle so can you say for a fact that I am wrong and you are right?
I don’t believe in Gods and so I have no definitions for them.
Nor do I believe in GODS only one supreme entity
Well my opinion is that of course I can make a mistake. I have free will to do what I want and to also know whats right from whats wrong. God however doesnt make mistakes because as I have said he can say(not literally) BE and it is. What kind of mistake would he be making?
Suppose their was a "God" that was directing this process? You say that comment as if scientists have got this theory "down pact" yet I bet that 300 years ago scientists probably thought the same thing. Can you be sure that 300 years from now that scientists wont be feeling differently about your theories?(cause thats all that they are
I cant speak for other religions I can only speak for myself and Isalm as I percieve it. The way I practice Islam hasnt changed in 1400 years. What that means is that I could go back 1400 years ago and practice pray and worship with any Muslim and nobody would know the difference(i know some would say that would make me or other muslims primitive but thats ok). No scientist can say that(thus why i call them theories) your science will continue to change which means that it is either constantly wrong or constantly needs to be updated take your choice but either way I dont find it reliable. I say these things with hesitance(sp?) because I know that science is a "religion" of sorts and as a muslim I shouldnt be disrespecting others beliefs (i have to constantly remind myself of this when talking to Sufi
surenderer - Hi again,
As to why it took so long to get where we are? I think now you may be referring to the collective human potential? Well, as this is the only earth I know of, who’s to say a few millennia isn’t a really short period to go from wheel to car?
As long as there is genetic change within a population there is no end to evolution. For example: ancient humans had perfect teeth (as witnessed by their fossils) while “modern-day” humans have poor teeth. Going from having perfect teeth to having poor teeth is evolution. Human populations are evolving to have poor teeth – relatively speaking.
I asked: Can God make a mistake?
Also, you bring up freewill while answering this question.
What is freewill to you?
How does that relate to making mistakes?
Also, evolution is not a theory. It does occur and is observable and measurable. I fully expect the mechanisms whereby evolution occurs to be challenged and to change, nothing is “down pact” nor is it claimed to be. I expect new evolutionary propositions to occur all the time. And not in 300 years from now – some modification could be proposed tomorrow. That’s science.
Hindus, Buddhists, Shinto, Jews, bla bla bla they are all ancient religions – all more so than Islam – and people worship as they always have. That has no bearing on what is correct now does it?
Humans use 100% of their brain. However, maybe you were thinking of each human’s potential – which is different. We do use all of our brain – however, how it is used is up to us.surenderer said:
As to why it took so long to get where we are? I think now you may be referring to the collective human potential? Well, as this is the only earth I know of, who’s to say a few millennia isn’t a really short period to go from wheel to car?
As long as there is genetic change within a population there is no end to evolution. For example: ancient humans had perfect teeth (as witnessed by their fossils) while “modern-day” humans have poor teeth. Going from having perfect teeth to having poor teeth is evolution. Human populations are evolving to have poor teeth – relatively speaking.
You said God doesn’t make mistakes, which isn’t what I asked.surenderer said:
I asked: Can God make a mistake?
Also, you bring up freewill while answering this question.
What is freewill to you?
How does that relate to making mistakes?
There is no need to add God as a supposition. But yes, there could be many Gods directing anything. Although any Gods that would choose to use evolution as a method of creation over say instantaneous creation, would have to be quite barbaric – as evolution is not a kind processes – that’s for sure.surenderer said:Suppose their was a "God" that was directing this process? You say that comment as if scientists have got this theory "down pact" yet I bet that 300 years ago scientists probably thought the same thing. Can you be sure that 300 years from now that scientists wont be feeling differently about your theories?(cause thats all that they are
Also, evolution is not a theory. It does occur and is observable and measurable. I fully expect the mechanisms whereby evolution occurs to be challenged and to change, nothing is “down pact” nor is it claimed to be. I expect new evolutionary propositions to occur all the time. And not in 300 years from now – some modification could be proposed tomorrow. That’s science.
Wow Surenderer I would have thought very few Muslims could read the Qur’an without the diacritical points? That’s amazing of you!surenderer said:
Hindus, Buddhists, Shinto, Jews, bla bla bla they are all ancient religions – all more so than Islam – and people worship as they always have. That has no bearing on what is correct now does it?
I don’t think science would qualify as a religion, as religion involves blind-faith, acceptance and stagnation while science values challenge, dismissal and change. Plus most religions have a supernatural aspect to them – while science can not. Science also isn’t a “belief system” per say, although it does push up against religion in terms of explaining natural phenomena. After all, that WAS religions bread and butter – but religion did such a poor job and was correct so infrequently that a new method of getting answers that had value needed to be invented – that’s called the scientific method. It's a method - not a belief.surenderer said:No scientist can say that(thus why i call them theories) your science will continue to change which means that it is either constantly wrong or constantly needs to be updated take your choice but either way I dont find it reliable. I say these things with hesitance(sp?) because I know that science is a "religion" of sorts and as a muslim I shouldnt be disrespecting others beliefs (i have to constantly remind myself of this when talking to Sufi
Can God make a mistake? - Interesting question.
Whatever God is doing is a mistake from our point of view.
Seriously, from God's point of view, Can God make a mistake ? For example "Can God kill himself, out of mistake ?".
What about this : Can God keep himself from committing such mistake ? The answer should be "YES". Then that would answer the first question. The omnipotence of God would keep him omnipresent because of his omniscience.
Whatever God is doing is a mistake from our point of view.
Seriously, from God's point of view, Can God make a mistake ? For example "Can God kill himself, out of mistake ?".
What about this : Can God keep himself from committing such mistake ? The answer should be "YES". Then that would answer the first question. The omnipotence of God would keep him omnipresent because of his omniscience.
Yeah, the way God is defined I always get the impression of a large computer hard-drive with no emotion (that involves change and God doesn’t change) running a simulation (i.e.: our universe) of life (well what we perceive as life).everneo said:Can God keep himself from committing such mistake ? The answer should be "YES". Then that would answer the first question. The omnipotence of God would keep him omnipresent because of his omniscience.
So, no God can not make a mistake any more than God can think rationally. Both involve not knowing an outcome – which as God knows ALL God can not do things that out of necessity involve being ignorant of an out come.
What a creepy thing to worship huh? And as to why it would require supplication – that’s even creepier?!?
I have another question two question:
1) Does God change?
2) If so, do humans change God? How?
IS life is a simulation? Given that we may reach a point of creating simulated life (say in a PC). If we can create millions of these simulated universes in our one REAL universe - well what are the chances that our “REAL” universe isn’t real after all – the odds would say we are simulation as well. As, being in a real universe is less likely than being a simulated one - that's because real universes can simulate many "fake" universes - which in turn may simulate their own "fake" universes. . .
What does that say about God - from what we know - that God is a big hard-drive probably running beta windows and THAT'S why earth is so f*cked up
Michael said:
His omnipotence can make him (enable him) to commit a 'mistake' but the omniscience would veto it and the same omnipotence would enable him not to make a mistake, right ? Where is the ignorance ?
Unless we have some respect for the teacher, we won't take whatever he has to say, seriously. Supplication is for our sake not what God 'needs'.
0.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 and
0.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 are different ? What is the practical difference ? Both are treated as 1 for all our practical purposes. 'Change in God' has any meaning only for us; for God it has no meaning, He is not affected at all.
This goes back to the ancient wisdom of saying life is a dream/illusion.IS life is a simulation? Given that we may reach a point of creating simulated life (say in a PC). If we can create millions of these simulated universes in our one REAL universe - well what are the chances that our “REAL” universe isn’t real after all – the odds would say we are simulation as well. As, being in a real universe is less likely than being a simulated one - that's because real universes can simulate many "fake" universes - which in turn may simulate their own "fake" universes. . .
What does that say about God - from what we know - that God is a big hard-drive probably running beta windows and THAT'S why earth is so f*cked up
Catch hold of God who could ensure that after waking up from the dream/illusion we are not rats that just had some sort of illusions after munching up some psychidelic plant.
surenderer
Registered Senior Member
God knows all....how could he make a mistake?? we make mistakes when we do things unconsiously(sp) or without knowledge of the results would be.....Not a problem for God.
Interesting...why couldnt there be ONE GOD directing everything? why not use evolution? Man is suppose to learn from evolution....how could we learn from instant creation?
Well we difer on opinion here because i dont think that religion has th have a "supernatural" aspect at all. I see religion as what we believe and how we let that belief govern our lives. Of course Science is a belief system. You have your thoughts on how we got here, what happens when we die, Why we are here etc..... because there is no "God" involved then that doesnt not make it a religion does it?
So you would agree that God can not make a mistake?surenderer said:
Sure there could be a God directing everything. There could be many Gods directing everything. There could be aliens directing everything. There could be any number of things doing any number of things. Right now there COULD BE an invisible puff dragon smoking invisible scentless pot right over your shoulder – but I doubt it.surenderer said:
What lesson is there to learn from Evolution that can not be learned from Instant Creation?
Anyway, as you said, God can do ANYTHING – thus there is absolutely no need for God to have used a barbaric system like evolution to teach us something when instant creation can teach us the same concept. Why? Because God can do anything. So any lesions can be learned by humans without the need for a barbaric system. Any God that would then choose to teach these lessons through the barbarisms of evolution would not be worth the time to worship. It would be a rather sick God to say the least.
Regardless, Occam’s Razor slices God out of the equations anyway
Can you measure God? Can you prove that God exists? If I postulate that God is just in your imagination, can you demonstrate to me reproducible evidence to determine that my hypothesis is not correct?surenderer said:
As there is absolutely no evidence for God (other than in peoples imaginations) I am left thinking that God is supernatural. Outside of the observable. Imaginary.
A belief system? I would assume that everything that “thinks” has a belief “system”. I will agree that scientists are taught a method of thinking yes. However, some Theists use this system. Also a scientist can be religious or atheistic. It’s JUST a job after all. BUT, Theists (regardless of weather they use the scientific method or not) can not be atheistic! So there is a difference! I think it has to do with a belief in the supernatural.surenderer said:
There can be no ignorance. As such you can do something God can not – make a mistake (or think or learn or be surprised or be mad or be happy or anything else the involves ignorance).everneo said:
Do you supplicate to God? Can you reveal a truth given to you by this wondrous Teacher that would otherwise not be known without this supplication? Has this truth EVER been learned by people who do not acknowledge your God – say a Buddhists, Taoist, Shinto or the like?everneo said:
What meaning is that?everneo said:
Then why supplicate to God – it isn’t affected by your supplication and can not be changed.
Kind of makes praying a waste of time huh?
Having the potential to do is one thing and actually doing/exercising it is another thing. Next, would you challenge God to rape an 8 year old kid to test his omnipotency ?Michael said:
This teacher, whom i could not see, made me to learn some nice&bitter lessons. If you want to know about them you might have to wait for my auto-biography.
All those Buddhist/Tao/Shinto masters made effort to find the truth instead of spending their time in rejecting God. They pursued the truth without any godly attributes and they did get to know it. How they wanted to see the truth is their choice.You cannot change the sweetness of the fruit whether you cut it into piecies and eat it OR you make juice, filter and drink. The later method might give you more sweetness due to its concentration, but the fruit does not increases its sweetness when you make juice. You run when it rains or walk. You get wet or wetter accordingly. Rain does not change its intensity whether you walk or run. Your acts are the cause and the effect too affects you only not the sweetness of the fruit nor the intensity of the rain.
As such, how any 'apparent change' in God is going to affect Him or His status ? Does the 'change' has any significance for Him ? or it is for you only ?
Can you name a few lessons? It’s quite easy to learn a bitter lesson – no need for God really.everneo said:This teacher, whom i could not see, made me to learn some nice&bitter lessons. If you want to know about them you might have to wait for my auto-biography.
If God can not be affected by you no matter what you do then there is no point praying to it.everneo said:
Does God change?
Can you effect a change in God?
Because your examples all show you having an effect on the thing.
How about a different example: try to effect gravity. It doesn’t change. Pray for it to help you – it doesn’t, because it is eternal and will not change no matter what you do. That sounds closer to God than juice!
But i am affected, positively, by praying. Is this not the whole argument ?Michael said:
Your wish is granted.Does God change?
Can you effect a change in God?
Because your examples all show you having an effect on the thing.
How about a different example: try to effect gravity. It doesn’t change. Pray for it to help you – it doesn’t, because it is eternal and will not change no matter what you do. That sounds closer to God than juice!
Let me go with gravity. If i need more g force then i have to come closer to the source. If i go farther the g force reduces. Same goes with prayer, it reduces the effects of the factors that prevent me from getting want i need from God.
An English proverb says, "one man's meat is another man's poison."
What is a mistake? Is it a label on any event or is it just a judgment we make up in our minds?
Does our calling something as mistake make it really a mistake? Or is it our mistake to assume that there may be really a mistake?
Such actions are just activities in the brain of their pracitoner, no one out there keeps their count and rewards in return. You get the result of whatever you perform automatically as always.