How did Buddha know that he actually achieved enlightenment and that what he achieved is the ultimate achievement?
How did Buddha know he achieved enlightenment?
- Thread starter SpicySamosa
- Start date
I find all these answers inadequate. I believe Buddha reached a state well below the highest spiritual state possible.
Q25 said:enlightment is being happy in any situation.
QUOTE]
No, thats being optomistic.
There is much more to spiritual progression than that which was taught by Buddha. Buddha's enlightenment was real, but he did not achieve the highest stage. Budha discovered all that he could, but fell short of the mark.
How do you know? Enlightenment cannot be tought, you cannot be tought to be wise... there are just some things that you have to find yourself, and there are many different ways to archieve enlightment.
Spicysamosa wrote
When you are One, how can there be more?
Dreamwalker knows.
Buddha did not teach his enlightenment.
He can not give you what he had (for then he would not have it).
He can only show you the way to attain what he did.
And Zen is the finger pointing the Way.
A special transmission outside the scriptures;
Depending not on words and letters;
Pointing directly to the human mind;
Seeing into one's nature, one becomes a Buddha.
When you are One, how can there be more?
Dreamwalker knows.
Buddha did not teach his enlightenment.
He can not give you what he had (for then he would not have it).
He can only show you the way to attain what he did.
And Zen is the finger pointing the Way.
A special transmission outside the scriptures;
Depending not on words and letters;
Pointing directly to the human mind;
Seeing into one's nature, one becomes a Buddha.
“Achieve” is not the right idea here.
Do we achieve to experience a summer day?
Do we achieve a baby’s first smile?
Do we achieve realizing the beauty of a lotus flower?
We experience these things, and once we have, others can doubt our experience but we do not.
Certainly you are free to doubt that I exist. If I have the same doubts I will quickly determine these doubts have no merit (or I will be fitted for a nice white coat with long arms).
Buddha would be the first to say that your experience of the Oneness will be different than his (if you seek it). Yours not better or lesser, but uniquely yours. He would not mind that you doubt his experience. You would not be the first.
We attain or experience Buddhahood, we do not achieve it.
BeHereNow said:
Remember, Christianity and atheism are not the only options, and not all religions have such "ultimate" experiences (although some certainly do).
Also, I would call it a huge mistake to say that Christian salvation corrsponds to enlightenment; I am fairly certain that the ideas they encompass are radically different.
Let’s have another go at this statement.
You are telling me that no one can attain enlightenment, so naturally neither Buddha nor anyone else could “know” that they did have this experience. Before I can show or explain how Buddha knew, I have to show that it is even possible.
Your reason for believing this is that if Buddha knew the future (or could imagine the future), he would realize he did not have enlightenment. Somehow the future is going to change the meaning or understanding of enlightenment? I don’t understand this. Enlightenment in 500BCE is different than enlightenment in 2004? If Buddha were alive today he would say, ‘Gosh, I had it wrong. Now that I see cars and airplanes I realize I didn’t really have enlightenment. Materialistic progress changes everything.’
What am I missing?
Well, yes, it is apples and oranges. Certainly there are great differences, but they serve the same purpose. Despite the obvious differences between apples and oranges, they will each prevent scurvy on a long sea voyage, so serve the same purpose in that regard.
Buddha abandoned the prevailing belief systems of his time and place because the common man felt desperation and anguish at not being able to attain the pinnacle of existence in their lifetime. All of the available paths were physically impossible to follow, or required a multitude of rebirths that gave no benefit to the present living being, or were otherwise quite literally impossible to experience. Buddha shared this desperation and anguish (and suffering) and sought release from it. His experience under the Bodhi tree revealed to him (among other things), that he alone was responsible for his own happiness, he held eternal happiness (whatever that might mean) in his own hands. He did this by experiencing the Eternal Oneness. This was not God per se, but can be compared to God. The Eternal Oneness is, as it suggests, all things, at all time, without boundaries and without beginning or end.
Jesus came to the Jews who were frustrated because their religious teachers were setting rules based on the word of God that were impossible to follow. The blessings of God were not available to the common man. Adherence to the Law of Moses could not be experienced. Spiritual happiness was virtually non-existent. Many Gentiles were in a similar plight in that they could not experience spiritual satisfaction. The message of Christ was that each individual held in their hands eternal life, the pinnacle of existence, they could experience the Eternal Oneness regardless of what the law said or what priests tried to tell them.
‘Just believe in me and you will have eternal life’. It was that simple.
The Buddha, by way of enlightenment, and the Christ, by way of salvation, gave their followers spiritual release from the bonds of materialism and the ability to experience the Eternal Oneness that Christians call God. They took their followers from a life of frustration and unhappiness to a life of satisfaction and bliss. With Christ it happens by Grace, with Buddha it happens with realization. In each case, no effort is required. ‘When you are hungry, eat. When you are thirsty, drink’ does not constitute effort by my way of thinking.
Many will say ‘Ha! Eat when I am hungry, drink when I am thirsty! I do that now. How is this enlightenment a wonderful thing? I see no need for this Buddha stuff.’
I say to them, That is wonderful!
Well, I'd figure part of what being enlightened is, whould be actually knowing one was enlightened...
But a less smartass answer I guess would be; In Vajrayana buddhism, the nature of the Mind is enlightenment ("Buddha Nature"), everyhting else is illusion, created from ignorance, sort of... I've been told I suck at explaining things.
When Buddha really understood the nature of the Mind, he was 'enlightened.'
For a good solid introduction to Tibetan Buddhism I recommend the books "Excellent Buddhism," "Profound Buddhism," and "Secret Buddhism," by Kalu Rinpoche, as the titles were [badly] translated into english from the french.
But a less smartass answer I guess would be; In Vajrayana buddhism, the nature of the Mind is enlightenment ("Buddha Nature"), everyhting else is illusion, created from ignorance, sort of... I've been told I suck at explaining things.
When Buddha really understood the nature of the Mind, he was 'enlightened.'
For a good solid introduction to Tibetan Buddhism I recommend the books "Excellent Buddhism," "Profound Buddhism," and "Secret Buddhism," by Kalu Rinpoche, as the titles were [badly] translated into english from the french.