How Catholics Can Evangelize Atheists

[water]

you did ask.

A True xian is not easy to find these days nearer impossible.

Most people don't even know what being a True xian actually means. In fact, most people have never really heard the Gospel that Jesus brought to the world.

Alright. So anyone who argues against Christians -- against true Christians -- is actually arguing against an OBSCURITY?

So much ado about -- nothing?

Well, that makes an awful lot of sense.

 

[Joeman]

joeman, where do you get that Christian beliefs necessitates creationist beliefs?

Because your little book clearly says the earth is around 6000 years old give or take a few hundred years. If you believe bible is God's word, picking and choosing is not allowed.

 

[audible]

Alright. So anyone who argues against Christians -- against true Christians -- is actually arguing against an OBSCURITY?

maybe to you or to say a muslim or a sikh for instance.

So much ado about -- nothing?

Well, that makes an awful lot of sense.

maybe to you, anybody who knows what it is to be a true xian, would know what was'nt truly xian would'nt they.

 

[water]

Audible,


Have you taken sides? If yes, whose side are you on?

Or are you arguing against people who call themselves Christians, but are not true Christians (per your understanding)?

 

[energy1]

Those are not real Catholics because they are not Christians. A Christian absolutely has to believe that the earth is 6000 years old. That's hardly enough time for speciation except for small insects and bacteria.

Joeman:
A Christian (according to Scripture) is one who repents of sin, and puts his faith in what Jesus Christ did on his behalf by dying on the cross to pay the price to obtain God's forgiveness, a personal relationship with God and eternal life.

After I came to know Christ personally it was almost two more years before God showed me the literal reality of Genesis, (instantaneous 6 day creation). I had been so engrained in evolution for so many years, it took that long before I could fully accept Biblical reality even with the Holy Spirit's guidance.
And you expect 'unbelievers' to get it without the Holy Spirit's help?! Ha, no way!

Remember what the Scriptures say:

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered the heart of man, the things that God has prepared for them that love Him. But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit.......But the natural man (unbeliever) receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned...." (I Corin. 2)

Energy

 

[audible]

Audible,


Have you taken sides? If yes, whose side are you on?

Or are you arguing against people who call themselves Christians, but are not true Christians (per your understanding)?

Joeman stated "Those are not real Catholics because they are not Christians" in reply to okinrus catholics can believe statement.to which crimson scribe said joeman was being judgmental(judge not.)
which I replied " Crimson: you are not judging when you state a fact." I am an atheist it quite obivious which side I would take that does'nt mean I have'nt studied and learn the opposing side doctrine, I would not allow myself to voice a opinion if I had not first learn something about the subject. that would be foolish.

I have yet to meet a true xian, so I would have to say present company accepted.

it's when they become high and mighty, with statements like judge not, with that demeaning attitude, we had one guy once who used to tell you,
to shhh when you spoke about god, and he was the biggest hypocrite I'd ever ran into. xian are and have always been hypocrites http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=42174

 

[Crimson_Scribe]

This ‘life’ thing I have going on sure keeps me from speaking for myself.

I’d like to remind everyone in the forum that it’s awfully hard to judge tone based on two words, but by all means, go ahead.

I was merely reminding my Christian brethren to remember how we are meant to act. Of course, I mistook Joeman for a Christian (I’ve heard Christians say similar things), so Joeman, I’m sorry, that was my bad.

Audible, thank you for stating explicitly how you feel, I enjoy reading well-thought out posts. Please remember, though, that we’ve not met.

 

[one_raven]

audible,
Excellent posts.
Thank you.

 

[charles cure]

I don't think those statements about Nietzsche are true. Can anyone confirm?

yeah theyre kinda true, but they ignore a lot of the finer points of his philosophy not to mention totally overlook his genius.

 

[charles cure]

WHO is to say what Christians or Catholics *HAVE* to believe?

i believe that if you are catholic and wish not to be excommunicated, then the POPE says what you have to believe. i mean call me crazy, but thats always the way its seemed to me.

 

[charles cure]

Anybody who has any grasp at all upon Social History knows that it was quite true that Darwin's purely Scientific Theories quite jumped the rails in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries and were very influential in preparing the Public Mood for both World War One and World War Two (which Historians will eventually come to see as one big War).

We still see such Thinking crop up. Look at Joseph Campbell's defense of Barbarism. His argument is that Civilizations have always been destroyed by Barbarism, and so Barbarism must comprise the more powerful and dynamic set of social institutions. Rape, Pillage and Plunder are superior to Religion, Morality, Government, Jurisprudence, Charity and Education because that has always been what everything has come down to in the end. This 'Might Makes Right' thinking is a clear offshoot of the Fascist Thinking that sprung out of Social Darwinism.

Washington DC has no better defense for Democracy than that it has been able to field armies and economies large enough to take all other Systems off the Field of contention. yet Democracy, on realistic review, has been frought with social unrest and repeated instances of civil conflict and genocide. Woodrow Wilson flat out declared that Democracy reduces down to Ethnic Self-determination -- Nazism 10 years before Adolf Hitler, and Hitler was only a zealous Wilsonian -- that people would vote along Ethnic Lines and a multi-ethnic Democracy would be a political contradiction. And the universal drive toward makeing each nation democratic HAS caused enough instability whereby America could aggragate to itself a primary role in dispensing power and influence through the World. But that is only the Free For All of Barbarism at work. somebody has to be King of the Hill as an amoral and ruthless power struggle plays out, but it is surprising that anybody would suppose such a slaughter house to be the Best of all possible systems, EXCEPT for the Social Darwinist, who supposes the highest of all social arbitars is a good war.

So the Catholics have a valid point about Darwinism. Anyone who doesn't think so... what planet have you been studying since 1870?

actually, someone seems to have missed the point here, whether its the nazis or whoever, it takes a lot of twisting of Darwins theory to use it to justify the extermination of inferior races. the reason for this is because Darwins theory states that species, or members of species that fail to adapt will be culled out of the gene pool gradually BY NATURAL PROCESSES. Darwin posits a system of the natural world that regulates itself without a helping hand from hitler or anyone else.

 

[Silas]

audible, that was a very good summary of "true" Christianity. I've never met one either. But I'm bound to say that my personal definition of a Christian, being the tolerant and all-embracing person that I am is simply: anyone who describes himself as a Christian.

I'd like to ask, if anyone knows - that linked page about Catholics evangelising Atheists, what the hell is this "Second Exodus" book he keeps going on about? Is this an apocryphal scripture, or some just book he's written?

EDIT: Ignore me, it's just the name of the website - I just didn't notice!

 

[Adstar]

Audible a very interesting post indeed. Did you cut and paste it form somewhere or did you produse the definitions yourself? No worry i will comment on the points.

you did ask.

A True xian is not easy to find these days nearer impossible.

Very true. we are in the end times and scripture says that the end times would be like the days of Noah. Only Noah and 8 families where said to have been saved.

Most people don't even know what being a True xian actually means. In fact, most people have never really heard the Gospel that Jesus brought to the world.

Very true. Most just rely on what the supposed "professionals" say weather they be someone with a pompous title in front of their name or a theological book author. People make men their Messiah's every day.

Most just accepted without question the doctrine of the church they were born into because it was the religion of their parents and grandparents
If so, you might want to examine the beliefs of that organization objectively for yourself, and determine if in fact their practices have a sound foundation in Biblical teaching.

Very true. They entrust their eternity into the hands of the "proffesionals?"

After the death of Christ the early apostolic church became greatly persecuted in Judea. Decreed heretics by the council of high priests in Jerusalem, and as such subject to death under occupying Roman rule, these severely oppressed first followers of Christ were forced to practice their religion in constant fear and secrecy.
The Church of God in it's infancy was on the verge of extinction.
Then God raised up the apostle Paul who spread this same Gospel of Jesus to the Gentiles throughout all of Asia Minor - then even to Rome, thus revitalizing the near vanquished congregation in Judea.

Yes true.

However, by 53 A.D. (just a little over twenty years after Christ's death), Paul cautioned his followers that this Gospel had begun to be changed - corrupted by the traditions and pagan religious practices of these very same nations he had preached the truth to.

Well i do not trust any dating of scripture because i do not trust the people who dated it. But yes the deceivers where in on the act early on in the game.

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ." (Gal 1:6-7)

They did spectacularly.

By 325 A.D., Pagan Rome, conqueror of the known world of it's time, became by a decree of the Emperor Constantine a "Christian Empire". Unfortunately, the brand of Christianity being practiced in Rome at that time was, as Paul had warned, not the same religion that he and the Apostles had been taught by Christ himself.

Yes. And the greatest evidence of that was your letters last verse quotation.

"But love your enemies, and do them good, and lend never despairing; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be Sons of the Most High: for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil." Luke. 6:35

Fighting and killing constantine enemies for Christianity is as about as logical as becoming a prostitute to protect ones virginity. Therefore Harlot of babylon

Rome was a world conquering Empire that instituted with might it's government, it's laws, it's culture, and it's traditions upon the territories it devoured - traditions that were in fact the same Paganistic religious practices of the Greek, Persian, and Babylonian Civilizations that had in like manner conquered the world centuries before.
Though their gods and festivals of worship might have been called by different names, each of these ancient cultures in essence, worshiped the same deities and practiced the same religious observances - which were then infused from one conquering empire into the next - weaving like thread this apostate theology into what has become the common fabric of religious belief that has persisted all through history Today the this is known by is xianity!

Yes Babylonian religion is very very old, the demons names have morphed but the old girl remains essentially the same.

I would not call today’s "christianity" 100% Babylonian i would call it to varying degrees watered down Christianity with a lot of paganism mixed in.

You see if the harlot was 100% Babylonian then the beast would not have to tear her apart and destroy her with fire in an hour. when the anti-christ comes he will destroy all traces of organized Christianity even if it is a watered down twisted variety. Darkness will only put up with pure darkness. And anyway why does satan need a false church when his boy will be out to exterminate all Christians. The Harlot will no longer be needed.

the Gospel that is preached by the accepted traditional churches of today is not the one that Christ brought, but rather a counterfeit, now merely appropriating His name.

"For in vain do they worship [Him] teaching not the commandments of God but the doctrines of men ... making the word of God of no effect through your tradition." (Mark 7:7-13)

It is a twisted one yes made to no effect what i call balaam jesus religion. The most deadly religion is the one closest to the truth without being the truth. Good verse quote by the way.

a true xian

1,does not worship on Sunday.

Lev. 23:3 "There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD."

Sabbath is one of Christ's 10 commandments:
Exodus 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy..."

Sabbath day changed by man:
"In the decision to celebrate the weekly festive day of rest on Sunday, (rather than Saturday) it may be that Pagan Roman usages played as large a part as in the fixing of the Christmas festival." (The Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 781, vol. 12.)

Deut. 4:2 "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you."

Christ kept the Sabbath:
Luke 4:16 "He went to the synagogue as his custom was, on the Sabbath day."

As did the Apostle Paul:
Acts 18:4 "He argued in the synagogue every Sabbath and persuaded Jews and Greeks."

Now this needs a slight correction you say the Sabbath is Saturday. That could lead people to think it was from midnight Friday to midnight Saturday. But No it is from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday Jewish days start at sunset so Saturday is from Friday 6.00pm to Saturday 6.00pm. Hate to come across as picky but what was is.

Now in general terms i keep all days holy i am on the internet every day doing what Paul did no the Sabbath in the synagogues. Also we have the law of liberty that allows us to follow conscience on what days to observe and what days not to observe. I will not post Romans Chapter 14 but if you are interested. read it to find out about the law of liberty.

Do as Christ did:
1Pet. 2:21 "To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps."

Sabbath to be kept forever:
Exodus 31:12 "For this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations.
Exodus 31:16 "...a perpetual covenant..."
Exodus 31:17 "...a sign forever..."

This is the thing. The covenant said though out your generations many Christians are convinced that the Jewish observances of the weekly Sabbath was for the Jewish people and their descendants though out their generations.

Of course some Christians think otherwise and they follow the Sabbath (Jewish one) in a way they are convinced by conscience to follow. The important thing is the Spirit of the individual Christian for whatever they do or do not do they must do from faith and a good conscience toward God because anything done or not done against ones conscience is sin for that Christian. As i said Read Romans chapter 14.

Even in the future after Christ's Second Coming:
Isaiah 66:23 "...from Sabbath to Sabbath all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the Lord."

Yes during the Millennial Kingdom of the returned Messiah.

Heb 4:19 "The promise of entering his rest [the Millenium] remains...so there remains a Sabbath rest (in Greek: 'Sabbatismos') for the people of God."

The rest is for the saints in the 1000 years of the Millennial Kingdom of the Messiah.

Sabbath made for all men:
Mark 2:27 "And he [Jesus] said to them, 'The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.'"

This was in reference to those who did not have the right attitude to the Sabbath and how where locked in to the letter of the law rather than the intent of the Sabbath. to give men a days rest away from work when they could dwell on things eternal (God) and grow in understanding. The people had become nit picking ordinances police going by the letter not by the spirit of the Law.

2,does not believe in a Trinity doctrine.

Bible describes two personages, not three:
John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

"In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together." (The New Catholic Encyclopedia Online.)

Holy Spirit is not a person; the original Greek indicates 'it' not 'he':
John 14:15 "I will request the Father and He will give you another helper to be with you forever, the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive because it neither beholds it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you."


When 'he' is used in scripture, it is referring to the Greek word, 'paraclete', a word which Jesus used to personify the Holy Spirit as: The Comforter; The Counselor; The Helper.

All of Paul's letters contain this greeting:
"Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Could Paul have neglected to included the Holy Spirit if 'he' was one of the 'Holy Trinity'?

Holy Spirit is the power that emanates from God:
Romans 15:19 "...by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Holy Spirit..."

The Holy Spirit is referred to as a Helper and Comforter both titles giving the Holy Spirit a persona not a power/force/energy label. Also Jesus said. That the Holy Spirit could be blasphemed.

Luke 12:10
“And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.

Also

Mark 13
11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

Last but not least:

John 14
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

The Holy Spirit is given a He persona.

As for the trinity I believe in John chapter 1 by faith in God. There have been many attempts to explain it from the old “yoke white shell” egg explanation to the Ice, water, steam explanation but they are just attempts by men to find answers that satisfy them.

The statement stands:

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

I believe that trying to explain that is vanity. Jesus is the Word that is a statement of faith, One day i hope to understand but i have a feeling it will be after the resurrection not before.

3.is certain that he does not have an Immortal Soul.

immortal soul is certain that he does not have an immortal soul.
The Bible definition of 'soul':

Gen. 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." [Hebrew - Nephesh]

Nephesh: A breathing creature, i.e. animal. [or man] (The New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, 1984)

The soul is subject to death:
Ezek. 18:4 "The soul that sins shall surely die."

Immortality is a gift from God - not something we possess:
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

John 3:15-16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

I cannot agree here. even though you post scriptures you have not fully understood them.

What is Life??? Life is physical existence. But existence is not necessarily always physical existence.

It says that a soul that sins will surely die it is truth because death is the end of life, no necessarily the end of existence.


Upon the return of the Messiah Jesus God will raise from the dead those who are saved and they will receive eternal incorruptible "bodies". Therefore the resurrected ones will be alive forever more with Jesus. One of the biggest lies of religion is that people will spend eternity in heaven. The book of revelation clearly state (to those who have been guided in understanding by the Holy Spirit) that the New Jerusalem a physical city will come down to earth and we (Christians) will dwell in it forever and ever in the presence of God. God is coming down to earth and will live with men for eternity on earth. Not in heaven.

So everyone will exist forever. But not everyone will be granted eternal Life.

4, is aware that Christmas is not Christ's birthday.

The Gospel accounts indicate that Jesus was born before the winter season:
Luke 2:8 "Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night." {Sheep were never in the field by night in Palestine after the third week of October.}

Inexplicable though it seems, the date of Christ's birth is not known. The gospels indicate neither the day, the month, nor the year. (The Catholic Encyclopedia, p.656, vol. 3, 1967.)

What history tells us:
Despite the beliefs about Christ that the birth stories expressed, the church did not observe a festival for the celebration of the event until the 4th century. The date was chosen to counter the pagan festivities connected with the winter solstice; since 274, under the emperor Aurelian, Rome had celebrated the feast of the "Invincible Sun" [or Saturnalia] on December 25. (Christmas, The 1995 Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia)

Though the substitution of Christmas for the pagan festival cannot be proved with certainty, it remains the most plausible explanation for the dating of Christmas. (The Catholic Encyclopedia, p.656, vol. 3, 1967.)

The decoration of the evergreen tree is of Pagan origin and predates Christ's birth:
Jer. 10:2-4 "Thus sayeth the Lord, learn not the way of the heathen ... for the customs of the people are vain: for one cuteth the tree out of the forest ... they deck it with silver and gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

Man's customs and traditions, even if heartfelt, are not recognized by God as true worship:
Mark 7:6-7, Matthew 15:9 "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the traditions of men...thus making the word of God of none effect."

fully agree, well said. A true Christian could not have written it better.

5,and Easter is the ancient pagan fertility goddess.

God condemned his people for Easter worship:
Ezekiel 8:6-16 "Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations ... behold there sat women weeping for Tammuz [son of Ishtar] ... you will see greater abominations ... twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the East, worshipping the sun ..."

Jeremiah 44:17 "When we burned incense to the queen of heaven [Ishtar] ... we made cakes [hot cross buns] for her bearing her image ..."

"As at Christmas, so also at Easter, popular customs reflect many ancient pagan survivals - in this instance, connected with spring fertility rites, such as the symbols of the Easter egg and the Easter hare, or rabbit." (Easter: Britannica Online 1996.)

"According to the Venerable Bede, the name Easter is derived from the pagan spring festival of the Anglo-Saxon goddess Eostre, and many folk customs associated with Easter (for example, Easter eggs) are of pagan origin." (Easter: The 1995 Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia.)

Easter was substituted for the true holy day of Passover that Jesus declared we should observe in memorial (once every year) of him:
Luke 22:19 "Do this in remembrance of me." John 13:15 "For I have given you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you."

1Corinthians 5:7 "For Christ, our passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therfore, celebrate the feast [of Unleavened Bread - the holy day following Passover] ... with the unleavened bread of sincerety and truth.

What does God think of man's traditions?
Mark 7:13 "... thus making void the word of God through your tradition ..."

Yes i agree, well said.

6,knows he will not ascend to Heaven upon his death

John 13:36 "Where I go you cannot follow..."

John 14:2-3 "I go to prepare a place for you ...I will come again and will take you to myself that where I am you may be also."

Acts 2:29-34 "Patriarch David both died and was buried...David did not ascend into the heavens."

John 6:40 "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Dan. 12:2 "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

1 Cor. 15: 22-23 "Just as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will come to life again, but each one in proper order; Christ the firstfruits, and then at his coming, those who belong to him."

Yes but there seems to be an exception made to those who are killed for their belief in Jesus. In the Book of Revelation it states. This happened or will happen in heaven.

Revelation 6
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

The Martyrs where in heaven before the return of the Messiah Jesus.

7,is positive that the Bible is the only authoritative source of God's divine word.

Heb 10:7 "Then said I, lo, I come (in the volume of the book...)"

Matthew 4:4, Dueteronomy 8:3 "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."

Revelation 22:7 "Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

Of cource.

8,Most of all, he believes with all his heart that Christ will soon return as King of Kings

Acts 3:21 "He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets."

Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense.."

Revelation 11:15-18 "Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever...thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign...and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great..."

Revelation 19:11-16 "Then I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True...the name by which he is called is The Word of God...on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords."

Yes we wait in joyful hope for the Word's return.

9,give's beyond reproach

"Give to everyone that asketh thee; and from him that
taketh away thy goods ask not again." Luke 6:30

"Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would
borrow of thee turn not thou away." Matt. 5:42


"But love your enemies, and do them good, and lend never despairing; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be Sons of the Most High: for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil." Luke. 6:35

Yes that is truth. But as we know we fail Jesus word every day. That’s why we rely of Him for forgiveness for our failing His teachings. In truth i believe no one can live up to the teachings of Jesus. But we can agree with them that they are good and true. As Paul said:

Romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace

We are condemned or saved by what we approve, we are forgiven because we believe God.


Thanks Audible i enjoyed that. A bit convicting for me as well. but still better than most of the stuff that passes here.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[charles cure]

Very true. we are in the end times and scripture says that the end times would be like the days of Noah. Only Noah and 8 families where said to have been saved.

hey remember this asshole? he thought we were in the end times too only like 200 years ago and then when the world failed to end on the day he predicted it would, he moved it back by a year, and then it didnt end on that day either and his followers freaked out and burst into tears (as though it was a bad thing that the world didnt end) and eventually figured they must have been wrong and so instead of making specific predictions they started (drum roll please) possibly the most idiotic sect of christianity to date THE 7th DAY ADVENTISTS! YAY!

please, we're not in the end times until the end comes.

read it

taken from:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/amprophesy.html

One of the most significant figures to come out of this revivalist spirit of the Second Great Awakening is a farmer from upstate New York by the name of William Miller. Miller begins to read the Bible, and he undertakes a new sense of understanding of how to interpret prophecy and the Book of Revelation itself. The most important thing that William Miller brings to the discussions of the Book of Revelation is his new sense of how the events are going to unfold. In contrast to earlier interpreters, Miller argues that the Book of Revelation is completely unfulfilled. All of the events described there are things that will occur at the end of time, whereas earlier interpreters had seen events unfolding throughout Christian history in the past. ... The crucial change in Miller's interpretation of the Book of Revelation is that he sees all of those events as still to come in the future. Nothing there-- maybe the first chapter alone, but nothing in the rest of the book has been fulfilled. ...

Now, what Miller thinks is going to happen is that the prophecies of Daniel will be fulfilled in the end that's just about to come. This is when the Second Coming of Christ will occur, what he begins to call the Advent. In fact, that's what his movement comes to be known as: the Adventists' movement. But the Advent or the Second Coming of Christ will occur in 1843.

The details of Miller's system are extremely complicated. They're difficult to follow. He drew upon passages in the Book of Daniel that refer to 1,260 days, and translated the days into years, and used as his beginning point the command to rebuild the Jewish Temple after the Babylonian captivity, moved forward from that, and by a really very elaborate and somewhat circuitous system, came up with the year 1843. It was an interpretive system that he found convincing, and that evidently many thousands of Americans of his day did as well.

When the first disappointment came in 1843, they went back to the drawing board, and they realized that they had made an error of one year by neglecting to take into account the transition from BC to AD, and because of that, they had gotten it off by a year. So they simply moved it forward one year to 1844. So that extended the excitement for one more year. But then at that point came the Great Disappointment, and the movement simply fragmented for the moment. ...

After the Great Disappointment, we have very poignant accounts of believers who describe the dismay, the weeping, literally the disappointment they felt. They had anticipated that they were going to be carried into heaven. It didn't happen. The world went on as before. Life went on as before. And it was a very traumatic experience for those who had been caught up in the movement. ...

 

[Adstar]

hey remember this asshole? he thought we were in the end times too only like 200 years ago and then when the world failed to end on the day he predicted it would, he moved it back by a year, and then it didnt end on that day either and his followers freaked out and burst into tears (as though it was a bad thing that the world didnt end) and eventually figured they must have been wrong and so instead of making specific predictions they started (drum roll please) possibly the most idiotic sect of christianity to date THE 7th DAY ADVENTISTS! YAY!

please, we're not in the end times until the end comes.

read it

taken from:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/amprophesy.html

One of the most significant figures to come out of this revivalist spirit of the Second Great Awakening is a farmer from upstate New York by the name of William Miller. Miller begins to read the Bible, and he undertakes a new sense of understanding of how to interpret prophecy and the Book of Revelation itself. The most important thing that William Miller brings to the discussions of the Book of Revelation is his new sense of how the events are going to unfold. In contrast to earlier interpreters, Miller argues that the Book of Revelation is completely unfulfilled. All of the events described there are things that will occur at the end of time, whereas earlier interpreters had seen events unfolding throughout Christian history in the past. ... The crucial change in Miller's interpretation of the Book of Revelation is that he sees all of those events as still to come in the future. Nothing there-- maybe the first chapter alone, but nothing in the rest of the book has been fulfilled. ...

Now, what Miller thinks is going to happen is that the prophecies of Daniel will be fulfilled in the end that's just about to come. This is when the Second Coming of Christ will occur, what he begins to call the Advent. In fact, that's what his movement comes to be known as: the Adventists' movement. But the Advent or the Second Coming of Christ will occur in 1843.

The details of Miller's system are extremely complicated. They're difficult to follow. He drew upon passages in the Book of Daniel that refer to 1,260 days, and translated the days into years, and used as his beginning point the command to rebuild the Jewish Temple after the Babylonian captivity, moved forward from that, and by a really very elaborate and somewhat circuitous system, came up with the year 1843. It was an interpretive system that he found convincing, and that evidently many thousands of Americans of his day did as well.

When the first disappointment came in 1843, they went back to the drawing board, and they realized that they had made an error of one year by neglecting to take into account the transition from BC to AD, and because of that, they had gotten it off by a year. So they simply moved it forward one year to 1844. So that extended the excitement for one more year. But then at that point came the Great Disappointment, and the movement simply fragmented for the moment. ...

After the Great Disappointment, we have very poignant accounts of believers who describe the dismay, the weeping, literally the disappointment they felt. They had anticipated that they were going to be carried into heaven. It didn't happen. The world went on as before. Life went on as before. And it was a very traumatic experience for those who had been caught up in the movement. ...

What the? What has the 7 day adventists and Miller got to do with the my reply to audible's post?

Yes i know about the prophesies of the false prophet Miller there have been thousands of false prophets proclaiming the imminent return of the Messiah most of them have not received the publicity that Miller got.

Why did you post this? Where you trying to undermine my faith in God Or the second coming of the Messiah? If so you undermined your effort completely by starting it by calling me an asshole.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[charles cure]

What the? What has the 7 day adventists and Miller got to do with the my reply to audible's post?

Yes i know about the prophesies of the false prophet Miller there have been thousands of false prophets proclaiming the imminent return of the Messiah most of them have not received the publicity that Miller got.

Why did you post this? Where you trying to undermine my faith in God Or the second coming of the Messiah? If so you undermined your effort completely by starting it by calling me an asshole.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

first off, the asshole i was referring to was Miller, not you. so no offense. the point i was making is that apocalyptic christianity has been proven time and again to be nothing but a fucking delusion brought on by people who have nothing better to do than sift through verses in the bible and come up with absurd ways to calculate the number of days or months or years until the end of creation. as if you could ever have any foreknowledge of something like that. please. that was my point, when you say we are living in the end times youre basically Miller without an complex and circular mathematical formula.

 

[dr. cello]

I don't think those statements about Nietzsche are true. Can anyone confirm?

mostly, no. Nietzsche's philosophy did not in any real way support the Nazi ideology. but people believe that it did, and are seemingly unwilling to actually read up and confirm or deny. i think the reasoning goes like this: 'nietzsche is evil.' 'is he? have you ever read him?' 'well, no.' 'shouldn't you do that before you judge?' 'i can't read him, he's evil.'

 

[charles cure]

mostly, no. Nietzsche's philosophy did not in any real way support the Nazi ideology. but people believe that it did, and are seemingly unwilling to actually read up and confirm or deny. i think the reasoning goes like this: 'nietzsche is evil.' 'is he? have you ever read him?' 'well, no.' 'shouldn't you do that before you judge?' 'i can't read him, he's evil.'

hahaha good point.

 

[Adstar]

first off, the asshole i was referring to was Miller, not you. so no offense. the point i was making is that apocalyptic christianity has been proven time and again to be nothing but a fucking delusion brought on by people who have nothing better to do than sift through verses in the bible and come up with absurd ways to calculate the number of days or months or years until the end of creation. as if you could ever have any foreknowledge of something like that. please. that was my point, when you say we are living in the end times youre basically Miller without an complex and circular mathematical formula.

Oh ok fair enough, you where referring to miller as an ass hole. Sorry i misread that. But you see there is a big difference between me and miller, I do not claim to be a prophet of God. I say what i believe not what i know in relation to the end times. So i strongly believe we are in the end times but i do not know we are in the end times. I do not say the Messiah will return on such and such a date so sayeth the Lord.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days