How can God not exist?

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Signal said:
EVERYBODY:

Here is a formalized version of the Argument from the Origin of the Idea of God:


The Argument from the Origin of the Idea of God

This argument, made famous by Rene Descartes, has a kinship to the ontological argument (13). It starts from the idea of God. But it does not claim that real being is part of the content of that idea, as the ontological argument does. Rather it seeks to show that only God himself could have caused this idea to arise in our minds.

It would be impossible for us to reproduce the whole context Descartes gives for this proof (see his third Meditation), and fruitless to follow his scholastic vocabulary. We give below the briefest summary and discussion.

1. We have ideas of many things.
2. These ideas must arise either from ourselves or from things outside us.
3. One of the ideas we have is the idea of God—an infinite, all-perfect being.
4. This idea could not have been caused by ourselves, because we know ourselves to be limited and imperfect, and no effect can be greater than its cause.
5. Therefore, the idea must have been caused by something outside us which has nothing less than the qualities contained in the idea of God.
6. But only God himself has those qualities.
7. Therefore God himself must be the cause of the idea we have of him.
8. Therefore God exists.

Consider the following common objection. The idea of God can easily arise like this: we notice degrees of perfection among finite beings—some are more perfect (or less imperfect) than others. And to reach the idea of God, we just project the scale upward and outward to infinity. Thus there seems to be no need for an actually existing God to account for the existence of the idea. All we need is the experience of things varying in degrees of perfection, and a mind capable of thinking away perceived limitations.

But is that really enough? How can we think away limitation or imperfection unless we first recognize it as such? And how can we recognize it as such unless we already have some notion of infinite perfection? To recognize things as imperfect or finite involves the possession of a standard in thought that makes the recognition possible.

Does that seem farfetched? It does not mean that toddlers spend their time thinking about God. But it does mean that, however late in life you use the standard, however long before it comes explicitly into consciousness, still, the standard must be there in order for you to use it. But where did it come from? Not from your experience of yourself or of the world that exists outside you. For the idea of infinite perfection is already presupposed in our thinking about all these things and judging them imperfect. Therefore none of them can be the origin of the idea of God; only God himself can be that.

Source


Let's go and dissect this one.
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1. We have ideas of many things.

we have an ability to generate ideas

2. These ideas must arise either from ourselves or from things outside us.

this ability either comes fom ourselves or from things outside us.

3. One of the ideas we have is the idea of God—an infinite, all-perfect being.

one of these abilities is to have an idea of God an omniscient, omnipotent being.

4. This idea could not have been caused by ourselves, because we know ourselves to be limited and imperfect, and no effect can be greater than its source

this ability could not have been caused by ourselves, because we know ourselves to be limited and imperfect, and no effect can be greater than its source

5. Therefore, the idea must have been caused by something outside us which has nothing less than the qualities contained in the idea of God.

Therefore, the idea must have been caused by something outside us which has nothing less than the qualities contained in the idea of God.

6. But only God himself has those qualities.

6. But only (what is udersood as) God himself has those qualities.

7. Therefore God himself must be the cause of the idea we have of him.

Therefore God himself must be the cause of the ability to form ideas, which must also include ideas of himself.

8. Therefore God exists.

jan.
 
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^^ Jan, you might have well have just said:
1. We have the ability to create ideas.
2. This ability comes from God.
3. Therefore God exists.
such is the power of your argument.
 
glaucon, look at these reponses to my response to Signal. :D
You see what I have to put up with? :D

Look guys, let's discuss, I don't want to fight. :)

jan.
 
There's nothing to discuss.
You have assumed the conclusion as part of your premise.
That is NOT the way to do it.

The posts point out your error, and you come back with that response?
WTF?
 
SciWriter said:
The responses are discussion of the fact that you cannot presume God any more than any other imagination of unknown entities. We can dream up many notions.
Click to expand...

It's just a variation of what is already written, please state your contention
and let's discuss. I don't mind if you refute it outright, but be more specific.

jan.
 
Sarkus said:
^^ Jan, you might have well have just said:
1. We have the ability to create ideas.
2. This ability comes from God.
3. Therefore God exists.
such is the power of your argument.
Click to expand...

1. I did, but put the emphasis on the source of the ability.

2. I did, but as God means different things to different people,
I put emphasis on the source.

3. God is understood to be omniscient, omniscience is the source of ideas,
we have the ability to form ideas, therefore the source of ideas exist.

jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
we have the ability to form ideas, therefore the source of ideas exist.
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And the source could be our brains and imaginations.
There is no requirement that this source is external or omniscient.
You're presupposing the conclusion again.
 
What about them?
They're merely suppositions.
And extraneous to YOUR "argument" anyway, as Sarkus showed.
 
SciWriter said:
Dywyddyr sealed it up. Brains can come up with all sorts of things.
Click to expand...

Brains only seem to come up with variations of pre-existing ideas.
Ideas of God, even if based on pre-existing ideas, or experience, is in and
of itself totally unique, not within our experience, or based on pre-existing ideas.

Yes, we can say God is a father figure, or, God is the universe, or God is used
to control the masses. While all these things and ideas exist, God, as an infinate, omniscient, omnipotent force, does not exist within experience, or, ideas formed by experience.

Maybe you can demonstrate otherwise?

jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
Brains only seem to come up with variations of pre-existing ideas.
Click to expand...
Again you're presupposing the conclusion.
Please show that this is, in fact, the case.

Ideas of God, even if based on pre-existing ideas, or experience, is in and of itself totally unique, not within our experience, or based on pre-existing ideas.
Click to expand...
Also a supposition.

God, as an infinate, omniscient, omnipotent force, does not exist within experience, or, ideas formed by experience.
Click to expand...
Supposition again.
 
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