How can/do atheists become believers?

[wynn]

Another example where I am eclectic is that those who may find out and would feel betrayed - my closest friends and relatives - already know of my atheism. If some new person gets close enough that such a revelation might affect them, I would let them know before the impact of my betrayal may be severe - besides, I would not hold up my charade in front of someone who may potentially become a close one - I would either adopt a apathetic or agnostic attitude in front of such people. I would be completely forthright when I am with someone of similiar understanding and intelligence, especially in a discussion or study setting [like here]. Which mask to wear is a decision based on the causality [if, how, when, why would someone discover my atheism] and the probablity [what reaction is how much likely, how severe may it be, etc]. Once again you see the cold-hearted eclectic consideration.

All those masks - that must be quite tedious.

I can understand if my inconsistency and dishonesty may be bothersome or even repulsive to you - it sure is dishonest and a burden to me - but this is a touchy issue, you can be cut off from many benefits or come to severe harm if the situation isn't handled properly - hence my decision to make use of critical planning and charades rather than being honest and truthful.

Benefits that are obtained by deceit are bound to turn sour.

Its not as difficult or complex as it sounds, it only involves:

1. Understanding your philosophical and social/cutural/political situation.
2. Knowing the ways in and by which the people around you act.
3. Divising proper behaviours for various situations.
4. Properly observing, understanding and judging present situations.
5. Remembering and accurately applying the behaviours as per the situations.

Like an actor ... I am actually in a somewhat similar situation as yourself, which is why I take an interest in this topic. Although my situation is the reverse of yours.

Ps. As far as the issue of God and religion is considered, being an atheist is difficult because most of the world is religious

I think it's quite the opposite - that the most of the world is irreligious.

and it is only rarely, like on this forum, with my parents, close friends, etc that I can "be myself". Doing so in other places is not advisable, which makes the charade and the accompanying thinking necessary - but it is also a great way to explore your own psychology and the causality of daily life as well as to explore the social world around you.

I have a deep distaste for charades, so I have been looking for ways to be without the nagging awareness of the pretense but nevertheless get along with others.

 

[aaqucnaona]

All those masks - that must be quite tedious.

Its the cost of living a different paradigm than the majority.

Benefits that are obtained by deceit are bound to turn sour.

This isn't deceit - its a white lie/ withholding the truth.

Like an actor ... I am actually in a somewhat similar situation as yourself, which is why I take an interest in this topic. Although my situation is the reverse of yours.

How so?

I think it's quite the opposite - that the most of the world is irreligious.

82% of the world belong to some religion, only 18 % are irreligious - atheists, agnostics, spinozists, deists.

I have a deep distaste for charades, so I have been looking for ways to be without the nagging awareness of the pretense but nevertheless get along with others.

I do it only when necessary - in company of strangers in religious situations. That I have planned it in detail doesn't mean I apply it regularly or intensively.

 

[wynn]

Its the cost of living a different paradigm than the majority.

This isn't deceit - its a white lie/ withholding the truth.

I don't like it - for the reason that it is stressful.
There has to be a better way than to live a charade.

How so?

It came to be so, apparently.

82% of the world belong to some religion, only 18 % are irreligious - atheists, agnostics, spinozists, deists.

Merely being a member of a religious organization does not automatically make one religious.

 

[aaqucnaona]

I don't like it - for the reason that it is stressful.
There has to be a better way than to live a charade.

Its not stressful or potentially harmful to me - I find it exhilarating and intellectually stimulative.

It came to be so, apparently.

What is your situation?

Merely being a member of a religious organization does not automatically make one religious.

I strongly disagree with you in that you "disown" any harm or negation that may come from the very powerful technology called religion. Religion has awesome power to do good, but murphy's law often leaves one wanting for it. In such situations, religious people and theists are shying away from the responibility that comes as a cost for the power of religion by calling religiously motivated negative actions "irreligious", the blame is not on irreligiousity but on corruption and misuse of religion. Religions must own up to the harm they have done if they are to claim their good and neccessary involvement in human life - you cant have your cake and eat it too.

 

[wynn]

I strongly disagree with you in that you "disown" any harm or negation that may come from the very powerful technology called religion. Religion has awesome power to do good, but murphy's law often leaves one wanting for it. In such situations, religious people and theists are shying away from the responibility that comes as a cost for the power of religion by calling religiously motivated negative actions "irreligious", the blame is not on irreligiousity but on corruption and misuse of religion. Religions must own up to the harm they have done if they are to claim their good and neccessary involvement in human life - you cant have your cake and eat it too.

"Religious" is not the kind of qualifier as "American / US citizen" or "of Caucasian race."

See the discussion in the thread on "religiously motivated violence."

 

[aaqucnaona]

"Religious" is not the kind of qualifier as "American / US citizen" or "of Caucasian race."

See the discussion in the thread on "religiously motivated violence."

Do you or do you not hold religion to be responsible where people use it for harm - creationism, jihad, etc?

 

[wynn]

Religion can't be responsible. Religion doesn't have a will. People have a will, and people are responsible.

 

[aaqucnaona]

Religion can't be responsible. Religion doesn't have a will. People have a will, and people are responsible.

Of course the atomic bomb isnt respondsible for killing the hiroshimans.

 

[wynn]

So Little Boy (or what was left of it) should have been brought to court and trialed?

 

[Jeeves]

No, Harry Truman should have been tried, along with Hirohito, Churchill, Stalin and their generals.


On the day of that Churchill made a speech about how the Germans - who had surrendered 3 months before the Hiroshima bombing - nearly got the atomic bomb first, which was total bs...
concluding: "We must indeed pray that these awful agencies will be made to conduce peace among the nations and that instead of wreaking measureless havoc upon the entire globe they become a perennial fountain of world prosperity."

Religion works similarly. The mass murderers who own the weapon, and through it, control nations and continents, have pious words to follow ruthless action. See papal bulls.

 

[wynn]

Do you believe that by nature, people are non-resilient, stupid and prone to do lowly things?

 

[spidergoat]

Religion can't be responsible. Religion doesn't have a will. People have a will, and people are responsible.

Religions have a belief system and one of those beliefs is often that one should follow the rest of the beliefs contained in the system. As a result of being encouraged to accept the beliefs on faith and not to question them, people are often influenced to do bad things. Of course one has to take personal responsibility for one's actions, but when it happens enough times, we have to look to religion as the root cause of some of these behaviors.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Of course one has to take personal responsibility for one's actions . . . .

Well, only sometimes. When religionists do something ignoble, they take responsibility for it. But when they do something noble, they give the credit to their imaginary god for inspiring them.

Religion is a system for convincing people that they are worthless, hopeless, useless piles of dog shit on God's lawn. The only reason they ever do anything halfway right is that God intervenes once in a while to turn them temporarily into kind and generous piles of dog shit.

How pathetic does someone have to be to fall for this?

There are many good reasons to hate religion. This one is as good as any.

 

[aaqucnaona]

Do you believe that by nature, people are non-resilient, stupid and prone to do lowly things?

Yes, that's the caveman in us screaming "Fuck all those that dont belong"; but non-resilient, I dont know where you get that idea. People are by nature -
stupid, ignorant, lowly, violent, trusting, authoritative and highly xenophobic and resilient in these traints.

 

[aaqucnaona]

So Little Boy (or what was left of it) should have been brought to court and trialed?

No, the point was that I recontextualised your statement to show how absurd it was... and you did consider it absurd, so point well made.

 

[aaqucnaona]

Well, only sometimes. When religionists do something ignoble, they take responsibility for it. But when they do something noble, they give the credit to their imaginary god for inspiring them.

I always feel incredulous that this hypocrisy is lost on them - God rescues one child in an earthquake, but killing the rest? Hell no, thats not our god who did that!

Religion is a system for convincing people that they are worthless, hopeless, useless piles of dog shit on God's lawn. The only reason they ever do anything halfway right is that God intervenes once in a while to turn them temporarily into kind and generous piles of dog shit.

I was a theist till about 50 days ago, so I must tell you, we atheists consider it a pile of shit, theists usually see it as a bunch of children before their loving, strict and powerful cosmicparent.

There are many good reasons to hate religion. This one is as good as any.

I agree. There are good reasons to love religion, but its faster to count the things that aren't wrong with it than the things that are.

 

[wynn]

No, the point was that I recontextualised your statement to show how absurd it was... and you did consider it absurd, so point well made.

You really need to stop thinking for me.

 

[wynn]

Well, only sometimes. When religionists do something ignoble, they take responsibility for it. But when they do something noble, they give the credit to their imaginary god for inspiring them.

Religion is a system for convincing people that they are worthless, hopeless, useless piles of dog shit on God's lawn. The only reason they ever do anything halfway right is that God intervenes once in a while to turn them temporarily into kind and generous piles of dog shit.

How pathetic does someone have to be to fall for this?

It seems you have fallen for it too, given your caricature of religion.

You might not participate in that "religion," but you nevertheless hold that image of it.

 

[wynn]

Yes, that's the caveman in us screaming "Fuck all those that dont belong"; but non-resilient, I dont know where you get that idea. People are by nature -
stupid, ignorant, lowly, violent, trusting, authoritative and highly xenophobic and resilient in these traints.

I guess you've got evolution to thank for that ... and that you aren't one of those people.

 

[Thoreau]

I believe in God, but I don't follow any one religion. I think, in my own personal opinion, that nearly all of them are way off-base. But, I'm never one to outright tell them they are wrong or that I'm ultimately right. Because, in all honesty, no one knows for sure.

And I was an Atheist but my beliefs simply shifted over time, as they always do. People change and I think it's important to constantly re-evaluate our minds and though processes. Who knows, maybe in 10 years I'll be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Pagan or Atheist (again). But that is where I stand now.