How bout this one for the athiests...just wondering

Marshal,

What you seam to want us to say is that life originated from a creator or something of the sort. Sounds a lot like the design theory which is greatly flawed.

If you say complex things such as life, rocks, plants, and trees cannont exist without there being a creator then what created the creator?
 
I agree with what the others said. And think about it, if we add in a "supreme being" in to the whole mix, doesn't that just make things more confusing? Like horseman said, if there is a "creator" who created the creator. And if that being exists who created the creator of the creator, etc, etc, ad infinitum. I'm sure most of you are familiar with the precept of Occam's Razor: that the simplest of two competing explanations is preferred. Now which is simpler: that an all-powerful divine spirit, which has never been seen, created life as we know it from nothing, not only breaking physical laws in the process but adding in incomprehensible and unnecessary postulation; or that we are in one of the infinite number of universes, and ours merely had the right physical laws that allowed complex organisms, us, to evolve. To me, the logical choice is easy. To bad most humans aren't logical.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Given the special properties of carbon, the natural tendency for atoms to be attracted to each other, and given enough time then complexity was inevitable and life also inevitable.
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as per evolution, as i understand, formation of life is a freaky accident Cris. do you have any reference that some one simulated these (what does enough time mean.? 4 fundamental forces change with time ? sequential chemical reactions could be accelerated with our current technology, i think ) and got that 'inevitable life' ( not some prime ordial soup) in labs..?
 
Originally posted by Cris
Marshall,

From the formation of the Earth some 4.5 billion years ago. And the matter and energy for that formation came from what is known as a big bang, and this big bang seems to been created from a period of inflation that likely created many other big bangs, and inflation may have been formed from earlier phenomena, ad infinitum. The result is likely to be an infinite universe filled with an infinite number of big bang bubbles of which ours is just one. Of course there are other theories for the structure of the universe.

Of course you might ask where the universe came from. But there is nothing to indicate that it hasn’t always existed. The universe just is.
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The bubble theory is one of my favorites :D . Although I doubt the correctness of any theories on the creation of our universe are correct at this time. The problem people see with the bubble theory is that they ask "So how was the first bubble made?" (which im sure marshall would have said, if I hadn't posted this first) The problem is that infinite is not a number. Infinite is all and then more. If you count to infinite there will always be more. So if there was a first bubble, then there is always infinite more before that.
 
Humans were not formed.

You're question show implies a certain preconcieved notion, namely, that there is something that formed us that is separate from us. Since nothing is separate from us, it would be more right to say that we grew out of the cosmos, like a plant from a seed. The whole of the universe is an organism, and we are like cells. But the universe has no central brain and needs none, that is human-centric thinking.
 
Re: Humans were not formed.

Originally posted by spidergoat
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You're question show implies a certain preconcieved notion, namely, that there is something that formed us that is separate from us. Since nothing is separate from us, it would be more right to say that we grew out of the cosmos, like a plant from a seed. The whole of the universe is an organism, and we are like cells. But the universe has no central brain and needs none, that is human-centric thinking.
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(Welcome to sciforums! Your post is like a breath of fresh air! I look forward to many more discussions with you!)
 
Re: Re: How bout this one for the athiests...just wondering

Originally posted by wesmorris
Apparently in this universe there is a force that urges things to become alive if the proper conditions are met. Once alive, things are imbued with a vehement propensity to stay that way, or they do not survive and as such, they do not exist.
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Yes... no external force really, its just how evolution works. We want feircely to survive because the iterations of early life that wanted feircly to survive before us were the ones that survived and repicated. Hence 'wanting' (i assume you mean it on more than a consious level) to survive is nessisary for continued survival, and if anything survives as long as we have its pretty much because we are the decendands of things that wanted to survive, and as such probably want to as well.
 
In the begining,
wait, no scratch that.
There is no begining,
nor end, that's old hat.
The universe just is,
always has, always will.
A huge mix of energies;
imagine the power bill!
 
I don't see a big problem with Marshall asking such a simple question. Yeah, it kinda looks like he wants someone to say "GOD DID IT!" but since that's not gonna happen, I'll admit that I've asked the same question a billion times.

One of the biggest problems I've had with the god that humanity passes off on us is that it had no beginning. To me, that's just insane, and I can't wrap my mind around it. But now, I see that the same is being said about the universe, and I'm just as boggled.

Please, someone explain how the hell something can have no beginning?

Thanks,
JDizzle
 
Re: Re: Re: How bout this one for the athiests...just wondering

Originally posted by SpyMoose
Yes... no external force really
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How do you know? I think there is. I think you can see it if you look deeply into someone's (or an animal's) eyes. It's the force that animates. The spark.
 
Originally posted by Marshall
ok, wondering...how do you think mankind was formed?
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Most likely from the natural evolution of the earth, maybe seeded by occasionsal space debris.

Or maybe we got a jumpstart from aliens. Maybe we're alien/ape hybrids, or genetically altered apes. Or maybe we were made from scratch in a lab in an alien research vessel. Maybe cavemen were the first test subjects.

Or maybe we're the ancestors of interplanetary explorers from long ago.

Or maybe- skipping a long line of other possible explanations- maybe there is this one super God with infinite wisdom and power who decided to create a feeble race of carbon-based hominids, put them on a spinning ball of dirt and rock, and let them figure it all out. Then God sits by himself in heaven, compulsively judging every little thing that results from our inadequate brain activity.
 
Re: Re: How bout this one for the athiests...just wondering

Originally posted by matnay
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Or maybe we got a jumpstart from aliens. Maybe we're alien/ape hybrids, or genetically altered apes.
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(Hi, matnay, I like this choice. There's a lot of extra-Biblical writings that address the "sons of god" came down to Earth and had taken a liking to the "daughters of men" and "knew" them. I'm sorry I don't have the exact Biblical quote. I have a Bible somewhere in the house, but I can't find it. What does that say? I like your posts. They are thought-provoking.)
 
Re: Re: Re: How bout this one for the athiests...just wondering

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Originally posted by matnay
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Or maybe we got a jumpstart from aliens. Maybe we're alien/ape hybrids, or genetically altered apes.
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(Hi, matnay, I like this choice. There's a lot of extra-Biblical writings that address the "sons of god" came down to Earth and had taken a liking to the "daughters of men" and "knew" them. I'm sorry I don't have the exact Biblical quote. I have a Bible somewhere in the house, but I can't find it. What does that say? I like your posts. They are thought-provoking.)
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Genesis 6
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
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It is interesting that this has always been a part of biblical teachings eh?
 
We were created as a result of the universe (and all that it includes). If you want to ask what created the universe, we are not sure. There is no reason to think that it just hasn't always been.
 
Originally posted by Persol
We were created as a result of the universe (and all that it includes). If you want to ask what created the universe, we are not sure. There is no reason to think that it just hasn't always been.
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Same with God :bugeye:
 
Marshall,

Same with God
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No it is not the same.

We know the universe exists and at present we have nothing to show that at some time it didn't exist.

In contrast -

We have nothing to show that a god exists and no reason to conclude that one could exist or has ever existed.
 
As I watched a show on archeology the other day, it was discussed that about 5000 years [ca 3000 BC] ago something seemed to kickstart modern civilization. This statement reminded me of the following:

From 3000 BC, China: From the book " Memories of the Sovereigns and the Kings " published in the 3rd century AD in China.

...in the third millennium B.C., before the birth of Huang Ti or of Chi You. ...'sons from the sky', would descend to Earth on a star which was the shape of a saucer.
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Just for your consideration.
 
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