Homosexulaity and the Bible

[Michael]

The vast majority of Christians are taught that being a homosexual is a sin. Do you think that Christians being taught this, has a real impact on whether or not Christians think homosexuality is or is not moral?



The reason I got to thinking of this is because Japanese and Native Americans were pretty much neutral about homosexuality - at least in regards to whether it was right or wrong behavior. Traditionally many Native American who were homosexual were accepted as medicine men (often they didn't fight as warriors). In Japan, as in Greece, Samurai were sometimes homosexual. It wasn't until contact with Christian Europe that homosexuality took on a negative vestige. Of course this itself was probably perpetuated in religion based on earlier Roman notions of what makes for a good Citizen.


Ultimately I was pondering about the underlying ideas of freewill. Japanese are not even aware that of the effects Christianity have had on their Buddhist/Shinto society. Are they REALLY make a free decision or forming an unbiased opinion? I don't think so. Which got me to thinking - they aren't really free. They're a product. Of course, that would go for Christians even more so. Which makes one wonder: Why (would God) proscribe certain benign behaviors as immoral if "He" wants humans to make free choices? If there is something "inherently sinful" about homosexuality, well, do we really need a God to tell us? Shouldn't we, as freewill creations, discover that by ourselves? And be "judged" based on those discoveries?

The Bible therefor seems designed to eliminate freewill. Not to grant it. So? Why even give it to begin with?

 

[draqon]

the Bible clearly defines that homosexuality is immoral/sin. As a Christian I agree.

 

[draqon]

just refer to story of Sodom and Gomorrah and how Bible views the residents of those cities and how they should and were dealt with.

 

[Michael]

the Bible clearly defines that homosexuality is immoral/sin. As a Christian I agree.

Yes, clearly OT God considered homosexuality a sin. But, do you think that the Bible itself has shaped your opinion to the point your freewill has been clouded (or even removed)?

I mean, do you truly think YOU truly had a real choice in the matter of morality on this one? Or where you programmed to think this way due to the Bible?

Why would God want programmed creatures? THAT seems odd to me.

 

[draqon]

Bible is a guidebook of morality, so the choice is yours to sin or not. If free will to you is anarchism and no guidance whatsoever, than why entrust in this laid out by laws civilization?

 

[draqon]

Yes, clearly OT God considered homosexuality a sin. Butt, do you think that the Bible has itself has shaped your opinion to the point your freewill has been clouded (or even removed)?

I mean, do you truly think YOU had a real choice in the matter? Or where you programmed to think this way due to the Bible? Why would got want programmed creatures? THAT seems odd to me.

Yes I could have disagreed with the Bible and said that I do not agree to many of its issues discussed.

 

[draqon]

Michael when I was growing up I was subjected to two different religions, being constantly torn apart between my grandmothers (my mother left me for that time) from Orthodox Christianity to 7 Adventist Church...

I came to choose between what I love in religions and what not.

 

[Michael]

Society shapes freewill I agree.

But, I was referring to the Bible. Why have a Bible at all? For most of "Biblical" History there wasn't one. The People of Sodom and Gomorrah would have had to make their own choices without one. As it is, they choose wrong.

Why did God suddenly decide to remove free will and inspire the creation of the Bible? Why not leave people as it was before the Bible - to make their own personal choice? Did he stop trusting in people's free will and decide to remove it?

 

[draqon]

Society shapes freewill I agree.

But, I was referring to the Bible. Why have a Bible at all? For most of "Biblical" History there wasn't one. The People of Sodom and Gomorrah would have had to make their own choices without one. As it is, they choose wrong.

Why did God suddenly decide to remove free will and inspire the creation of the Bible? Why not leave people as it was before the Bible - to make their own personal choice? Did he stop trusting in people's free will and decide to remove it?

well if you refer to the Bible reference of the building of the tower of Bebel, the people became seeking power they wanted to become Gods. This was unacceptable.

Now why it was unacceptable to build a tower of Bebel I am not sure...any ideas?

 

[Doreen]

The vast majority of Christians are taught that being a homosexual is a sin. Do you think that Christians being taught this, has a real impact on whether or not Christians think homosexuality is or is not moral?

Yes. I think if there were no quotes in the bible to back up the prejudice, the prejudice would fade (faster). And honestly, I think some Christians would be relieved. Others, not.

. Of course this itself was probably perpetuated in religion based on earlier Roman notions of what makes for a good Citizen.

The Romans and the Greeks were much more open to homosexual sex acts than christians. It was even considered a part of a boys education to receive sex from an older male. And slaves of course were widely used, both male and female by the male rulers of each house.

Ultimately I was pondering about the underlying ideas of freewill. Japanese are not even aware that of the effects Christianity have had on their Buddhist/Shinto society. Are they REALLY make a free decision or forming an unbiased opinion? I don't think so. Which got me to thinking - they aren't really free. They're a product. Of course, that would go for Christians even more so. Which makes one wonder: Why (would God) proscribe certain benign behaviors as immoral if "He" wants humans to make free choices? If there is something "inherently sinful" about homosexuality, well, do we really need a God to tell us? Shouldn't we, as freewill creations, discover that by ourselves? And be "judged" based on those discoveries?

It's kinda like how certain very conservative people feel about free speech and criticizing say, US behavior. Sure, you're free to express yourself, but you should leave if you got a problem you asshole.

Another way to look at what you are saying is why does Christianity posit a permanent split between nature and morality? Why must be always be split against ourselves? To be our own jailer. But note this does not end with an end to theism. This assumption, that we must forever distrust ourselves and control ourselves because really, down deep, we are ookie rapist monster killers, is held by much of the non-theist intellectual class also.

The Bible therefor seems designed to eliminate freewill. Not to grant it. So? Why even give it to begin with?

Well, they would say 1) that there are a variety of good choices and 2) that God wanted us to freely choose amongst those good choices.

But I do want to emphasize that the core meme here is not religious. Or it has to do with the Abrahamic religions and the non-theist humanism that sprouted from these. Other cultures have come to similar conclusions - japanese society conceives the self in a less individualistic way, but control is de rigeur there also.

Pagan and indigenous groups tended to have less of this meme.

 

[Michael]

Well, they would say 1) that there are a variety of good choices and 2) that God wanted us to freely choose amongst those good choices.

If this is true then why not create a Bible at the same time as human's? It seems like God was happy for human's to make their own choices, without the aid of a Bible, all up until very recently (in Biblical Terms). Just the last 1700 years or so.

Why the sudden change of heart? Why the restricted categories of choice? What exactly is God's purpose in all of this? This is just a test isn't it? Was the test found to be too hard? The students too ... what?

 

[786]

So you're saying why sudden 'restriction of choice'- maybe you should go back and read Adam and Eve story... Free Will is given, but so are guidelines- the test is to do what you want within those confines...

You call America a 'freedom' loving country you supposedly are free people- the existence of a government is in direct contradiction to that 'freedom'. I sure as heck would love to speed, but I'm going to get ticketed- you call that freedom?

Get the concept right first.

Peace be unto you

 

[Doreen]

If this is true then why not create a Bible at the same time as human's? It seems like God was happy for human's to make their own choices, without the aid of a Bible, all up until very recently (in Biblical Terms). Just the last 1700 years or so.

This is another issue and since I am not Christian and have not heard their standard response, I'll refrain from guessing.

Why the sudden change of heart? Why the restricted categories of choice? What exactly is God's purpose in all of this? This is just a test isn't it? Was the test found to be too hard? The students too ... what?

Well, one could argue that God is upping the ante, raising, over time, his expectations. I can see the change from the OT to the NT being explained this way, so perhaps also the pre-Bible to Bible periods also.

 

[Doreen]

So you're saying why sudden 'restriction of choice'- maybe you should go back and read Adam and Eve story... Free Will is given, but so are guidelines- the test is to do what you want within those confines...

If you are responding to his last post - the one to me - I think you are missing the point. Humans before the Bible 'came out' would mostly not have known many of these rules. If it was good for them to know the rules, why did they come so late. If it didn't matter before, why later. If before people were expected to work this out for themselves, why was this set-up cancelled?

You call America a 'freedom' loving country you supposedly are free people- the existence of a government is in direct contradiction to that 'freedom'. I sure as heck would love to speed, but I'm going to get ticketed- you call that freedom?

It's a clever argument but not exactly an analogy. Inherent in the US system is that there is a huge area where the government does not involve itself and much of this would be around stuff forbidden in the Bible. Homosexuality for example is no longer illegal. The law, generally, tries to enforce people perpetuating things on unwilling others.

 

[786]

If you are responding to his last post - the one to me - I think you are missing the point. Humans before the Bible 'came out' would mostly not have known many of these rules. If it was good for them to know the rules, why did they come so late. If it didn't matter before, why later. If before people were expected to work this out for themselves, why was this set-up cancelled?

Well if the Adam and Eve story actually happened, then they must know of it themselves.... So Adam (human) must of have known- and that info must have traveled to his children too, the fact that you have it preserved in a book (Bible) that came later is irrelevant... Now if one assumes that those stories are fictional then I surrender my point. My point is 'restrictions' have always been present- its not 'news'.

It's a clever argument but not exactly an analogy. Inherent in the US system is that there is a huge area where the government does not involve itself and much of this would be around stuff forbidden in the Bible. Homosexuality for example is no longer illegal. The law, generally, tries to enforce people perpetuating things on unwilling others.

My response was to those 'restrictions' and the concept of 'free will'- that is 'Free Will' is the ability to choose, but that doesn't mean that you aren't provided guidelines.... Just like I can choose to speed, but I know the guidelines as well.

Peace be unto you

 

[Doreen]

Well if the Adam and Eve story actually happened, then they must know of it themselves.... So Adam (human) must of have known- and that info must have traveled to his children too, the fact that you have it preserved in a book (Bible) that came later is irrelevant... Now if one assumes that those stories are fictional then I surrender my point. My point is 'restrictions' have always been present- its not 'news'.

Well, there wasn't much place for many of the rules, even those against homosexuality are pretty meaningless in Eden. Incest rules would cover them. There are injuctions in the OT about slavery, also not relevent then, but at a certain point became relevent. ETc.

 

[Neverfly]

just refer to story of Sodom and Gomorrah and how Bible views the residents of those cities and how they should and were dealt with.

Is there any evidence such a thing ever happened at all? Other than that one book, is there any geological evidence? You might claim I'm discounting the book.
Well, I can discount the Chronicles of Narnia as evidence for Earths Creation as well.
So obscure books are not necessarily Evidence of anything other than an authors opinion at the time he wrote his piece in a book.

Vegas has not been vaporized and there are no pillars of salt around it. Explain how that salt pillar thing works, anyway...

Simply put, you claim authority in that One book, while ignoring everything else. That seems extremely biased and self fulfilling to me.

So you're saying why sudden 'restriction of choice'- maybe you should go back and read Adam and Eve story... Free Will is given, but so are guidelines- the test is to do what you want within those confines...

The real story?
It's a STORY...
In the end, we have a fascinating and extensive collection of fossils showing the lineage of human evolution that strongly suggests that there was no Eden, no Adam and no Eve.

Also, I find the Talking Snake rather odd.
You know, the Satanic one which was punished by losing its legs, even though the fossil record of snake evolution shows that snakes 'lost' their legs a very long time before even the most primitive of humans had developed...

You call America a 'freedom' loving country you supposedly are free people- the existence of a government is in direct contradiction to that 'freedom'. I sure as heck would love to speed, but I'm going to get ticketed- you call that freedom?

Get the concept right first.

Peace be unto you

Politically... I cannot quite argue with this statement.
The "Freedom" concept refers to the oppressive British rule and taxation of the time. Ironic that we set up our own government that now taxes us more fiercely than the British had back then...
Although, here in the USA, we pay LESS taxes than most European nations and Canada, today.

 

[draqon]

Christianity is based on principles of Bible thus it is relevant as it is discussed in this book.

As for Vegas goes...it has not been long as Sodom and Gamorrah, so it will come time for it to vaporize, along with Detroit and New Orleans.

Well lets see the archeological proof for existence of Sodom and Gamorrah are: Babe-edh-drah ruins

http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48931527.html

 

[Neverfly]

Christianity is based on principles of Bible thus it is relevant as it is discussed in this book.

Ok, so each leads support to the part it endorses which lends support to the part that is endorsed which supports the part that it endorses...
Self fulfilling, again?
Seems so... circular...

You know, Buddhism is based on principles of the teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, thus it is relevant as discussed in the topic of Buddhism.
Or something.

Somehow, what you just said doesn't seem very convincing.

As for Vegas goes...it has not been long as Sodom and Gamorrah, so it will come time for it to vaporize, along with Detroit and New Orleans.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

Well lets see the archeological proof for existence of Sodom and Gamorrah are: Babe-edh-drah ruins

http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48931527.html

Ok, so you spout a link to a Site that shows a strong bias in claiming that radiometric dating is inaccurate- a basic lie, really...
Why should I trust ANYTHING that site claims?

 

[scifes]

the Bible clearly defines that homosexuality is immoral/sin. As a Christian I agree.

never knew that!

Society shapes freewill I agree.

But, I was referring to the Bible. Why have a Bible at all? For most of "Biblical" History there wasn't one. The People of Sodom and Gomorrah would have had to make their own choices without one. As it is, they choose wrong.

Why did God suddenly decide to remove free will and inspire the creation of the Bible? Why not leave people as it was before the Bible - to make their own personal choice? Did he stop trusting in people's free will and decide to remove it?

yes michael, god removed free will, i can see homoes having their bodies taken over everytime they express themselves, the go like:"you know what guys? i'm a ho....." (in a robotic voice):"ERROR ERROR! I WAS NOT GOING TO SAY THAT I AM HOMOSEXUAL, I WAS JUST KIDDING, PLEASE DISREGARD WHAT I SAID.." then they would faint and wake up with their memory erased..

what a joke you are michael.."god all of a sudden decided to remove free will..:booo:"

If you are responding to his last post - the one to me - I think you are missing the point. Humans before the Bible 'came out' would mostly not have known many of these rules. If it was good for them to know the rules, why did they come so late. If it didn't matter before, why later. If before people were expected to work this out for themselves, why was this set-up cancelled?

:shrug:
your kid doesn't smoke, you have no rules against smoking, your kid starts to smoke, you put a rule against smoking.

how would it sound if you had "no smoking" stickers all over your house when nobody smokes there?

Ok, so you spout a link to a Site that shows a strong bias in claiming that radiometric dating is inaccurate- a basic lie, really...
Why should I trust ANYTHING that site claims?

you don't trust books...
you don't trust sites...
do you trust clubs?