Homeopathy and potential energy

K

Kumar

Registered Senior Member
Potencial Energy

Hello members,

Good Wishes.

I want to know that suppose we take one salt & mix it in lactose powder. Then we triturate it several times. Kinetic Energy is applied in trituration on both substances. My question is that, if this applied KE will be stored in these two substance or will be lost as heat? It is possible that there is no chemical reaction takes place between these two substances.

My second question is that if we triturate these substances in Procelain mortar & pestle, & store them in glass containers, then if some molecules/particles of mortar&pestle and Glass container will be mixed in those salt & lactose as a process of degradation or not. If by using new or used mortar/pestle & glass containers also makes some differance for this purpose or not?
 
Last edited:
Firstly, the kinetic energy.
If we assume that the tip of the burette is about 15cm above the level of the lactose and salt you are titrating, and that during the course of the titration, you add 25cm^3 of the titration solution. The maximum possible energy transferred to the lactose and salt would be mgh, or .025kg x .15m x 9.8 = 0.038J. This is such a tiny amount of energy, considering that 4.2kJ is the specific heat capacity of water, that it is unlikely to have any effect at all.

Secondly, the mortar/pestle/glassware question
I guess that if you use a mortar and pestle it is inevitable that some fragments of porcelain will be mixed into your lactose and salt. I'm not sure how you think glass fragments will contaminate your mixture, but even so, I don't think it is a significant source of concern. Glass and porcelain are pretty unreactive, so I wouldn't expect anything spectacular.

By the way, what kind of reaction are you expecting, and what are you titrating the salt and lactose against?

Hope this is helpful
 
Hello geodesic,

Thanks for your reply. Actually my question is related to homeopathic medicines. These are prepared by mixing one part of any salt with 99 parts of lactose. This mixture is triturated in mortar & pestle for some time(say one hour). This triturated than called 1X. In second episode one part of 1X mixture is again mixed in 99 parts of lactose and again triturated. Like this this process go on even more then 200 times. It was calculated that there can be no molecule of salt present in a mixture above 24X. But still the medicine above 24X is more effective with out the physical presence of any molecule of salt. It is also speculated that it works on energy grounds not on material ground. I,therefore, just thought that if the KE applied in trituration process can be converted to Potential Energy in the mixture of salt & lactose. The similar process is also followed by mixing salt+water OR salt + Alcohol in 1:99 ratio kept in glass bottle and shaked which is called hard sucussions making 1C potency . In this case KE is applied by sucussions instead of triturations.

Since, no molecule can be present in higher potencies, there can only be one possibilty that these may work on PE ground(like petrol) which possibily is stored in this process of triturations & sucussinons & again converted in KE when applied in mouth(just kept under tongue & let it dissolved). Now, I want to know that whether substancial PE can be stored in the mixture or not.

Secondly, I assume that some particles/molecules shedded from mortar & pestle OR glass bottles will allways be there in the mixture. Silica is one constituent of Procelain & glass which is also considered as one medicine in homeopathy. It may be inert in physical form but acts like medicine in homeopathic doses. When there can be no molecule of salt present in mixture, then these molecules will remain present. There can be a possibily that the effect of medicine is due to these silica molecules.

In short, Homeopathic medicines can work either on stored PE ground OR due to presence of these contaminated silica molecules in mixture which I want to judge. Even one or just few molecules matters in homeopathic theory i.e lower the concentration higher the effect.

One more question is arised in this regard. Since, similar KE is applied to two substances i.e Salt(eg;NaCl) & lactose(oralcohol). Now the question is that If the Stored PE will be differant in these two mixture considering its quality & quantity.

I think I made it quite clear & request you to please tell me accordingly.
Thanks again.
 
Last edited:
Guessing that English is not your first language (but you speak mine better than I speak yours) I wonder if you mean titration. From what I know of homeopathy, the word you are looking for is dilution, which would certainly cause confusion.

To be honest, I am uncomfortable with the ideas of homeopathy, as by the argument below, that the lower the concentration, the greater the effect, and that only stored KE is responsible for the effect, then surely a bottle of ultra-pure water which has been shaken for a long time to add KE would be as effective as any homeopathic remedy.

To your final question, I don't think any energy would be stored, other than as heat, which would be lost to the surroundings. Where are you proposing that this energy be stored?
 
There is no physical explanation of how a homeopathic medicine can retain the effect of the original substance. There is also no scientific proof that it is indeed retained. The effect of homepathic preparations appear to be based entirely on belief. Indeed the procedures for "proving" as laid out in the Organon of Medicine by Hahnemann (more or less the bible in homeopathy) is a very subjective method, which is wide open to belief.

Hans
 
There is no physical explanation of how a homeopathic medicine can retain the effect of the original substance. There is also no scientific proof that it is indeed retained. The effect of homepathic preparations appear to be based entirely on belief.
Click to expand...

Hello Mr. MRC_Hans,

Belief is one of the best healing natural system & it is a 'Universal Remedy'(study self Hypnosis). I know there is no scientific explaination as yet but there are lot of 'Spritual' explanations & proven observations as noticed. Otherwise it would have not yet been existed at large . We can not declare to millons as fool or illitrate who worked & experianced this system since more then 200 years. Most of the Founders & Pursuers along with current homeopaths are allopathic M.D. and/or just equally qualified doctors. So many countries,hospitals,organizations etc. have recognized and approved it as a medical system, can not be declared as FOOLS. I am trying here and elsewhere to make some reasonable & acceptable logic for the physical explaination (as you desire) only for noble cause. Just saying that no proof or no theory, do not make any thing to be disqualified which may take hundreds of years to really judge & prove it. Several other theories, religions, GOD etc. are existing since long can't be disqualified, because they don't have any scientific proof. It can also be our weakness that we are not able to judge or test them as yet . This system seems to be a intermediate system of Sprituals & Science, Old & New ,and therefore is a important link for us to study.:)

Hope this will help. :)
 
Last edited:
MRC_Hans
I agree with you almost entirely, but I think that the point of the discussion is not whether or not homeopathy can be proved correect, but how we could go about explaining any effects, real or imagined, and testing to find examples.

If you have already decided that homeopathy is medically impossible, then there is no point in discussing it is there?
 
Hi geodesic,

Thanks for the reply. Your guess is absolutely correct that my first language is not english & moreover I am bit weak in grammer & spellings. But, I request you and all to bear with me. Just look at meaning which may be more important.

Trituration is also practiced in homeopathy & that you can say is one kind of grinding. If we study 'Sun Rays' or Colur Therapy, we can find effects of either KE stored as PE OR of glass particles contaminations of water in glass bottles. Sun rays is an applied KE heat energy on bottle & likewise shaking, succussing or trituration is also an applied mechnical energy. You can see the effect of contamination in pickles stored in China clay or glass containers OR in plastic containers.

I am proposing that KE due to triturations or sussussions is converted & stored as PE in the mixture of salt & lactose in triturations OR salt & alcohol in dilutions. Otherwise, where this applied KE will go. If you say it is converted in heat & lost fully then it can make some sense otherwise it will be stored in the mixture. During the process of T & S(trituration & sucussion) molecules of both salt & lactose are got seprated & which may attatch to each other due to molecular forces. There can be some smoothning effect on T & S causing decrease in friction among the molecules. So pls inform in these considerations.
 
Last edited:
I agree that Kumar did not ask about my opinion on homeopathy, but ... he got it anyway ;)

However, my point is that there is no explanation to potentialized medicines. There is no known physical function that can be used to explain it. This is not a question of opinion, it is a question of science.

This is not just a question of scientists not taking homepathy seriously (actually, some do). If there was some sort of memory factor in diluted substances, it would show up as a confounding factor in numerous types of processes and experiments. Whether we understood the mechanism or not, we would have discovered it.

The computer you are using right now is based on a precise mastering of carefully selected impurities in silicon crystals on the molecular level. We are on very well-charted land here.

Hans
 
Mr. Hans,

There are so many things which are existing since long back, may be previous to our known history. They are still here means something is definitely there in them. It is our weaknesses that we have not or could not make the required test instruments or techniques to suitably test or understand them, because our science may be bit too young then the old sciences. We can positively assume this aspect because of their long existance & more avanced aspects mentioned in them which we disblieve . There can be some NAME, FORM OR LANGUAGE CHANGE in old & new mentionings/sciences which might have been created due to some vested interests or ignorances leadind us to start afresh remaining only faint memories in our origional computers.

I know I may be wrong here but is right there.

:)
 
Last edited:
Homeopathy is not prehistoric. It is 200 years old. Even at that time, Hahnemann chose to ignore some scientific facts.

Notice, however, that I am not claiming that some mechanism cannot possible exist. I am specifically saying that there is no KNOWN mechanism. I also point out that we have very extensive knowledge in this area, but it is thinkable that somewhere in the depths of Quantum Mechanics or some area like it there lurks some yet undiscovered scientific explanation.

What you are doing in your opening post, however, is to ask for mechanisms in KNOWN science, and it is that question I am answering: There is no KNOWN mechanism.

Hans
 
That something has been around for a long time merely means that people find the idea comforting, like astrology, or that the enjoy taking part in it, like fox hunting.

Astrologers claim a scientific background for their theories, and many people believe their results, but it does not mean that they are in any way trustworthy.
Foxhunters claim that they hunt foxes only to keep the population under control, which is of course nonsense, there are far better and easier ways of doing this, if it was required.

Saying that something is old, and therefore good is not a convincing or effective argument. If you can come up with some quantitative proof, I will be glad to have a look, but are you not just overlooking the possibility of a placebo effect?
 
Mr.Hans,

Homeopathy may be just more then 200 yers old, but it is just an editing of old ancient principals. I think Homeopathy is just a essance of all or most pre-existed systems.

Hahnemann chose to ignore some scientific facts.
Click to expand...

Which facts you are talking about. Furthur, I am trying to find some ground for knowing this logic that how homeopathic remedies works.Quantum Mechanics ! there can be any possible solution till it is proved. But just now I am concentrating on Contaminating materials on materialistic ground & PE on energetic grounds. Pls see any possibility of PE can be stored in mixture by T or S applications. If we get the remedies in dilution or in trituration form chemically tested, we will get combination of C,H,O,Si atoms and some other trace elements. So many organic materials are made from this CHO combination like alcohol. Alcohol have lot of PE of burning etc., which is also a combination of CHO. How this much PE is stored in it. Likewise, PE can also be stored in homeopathic remedies.

Hi geodesic,

No doubt that something has been around for a long time merely means that people find the idea comforting, but we can not totally ignore them. There can be some miscalculations or misinterpretations due to vested intrests like Foxhunters or ignorances. Saying that something is old, and therefore good may not be a convincing or effective argument but saying tested & obseved but new may also be not a complete aurguments. All the tested & scientifically observed truths can not become a complete facts unless these are also 'time tested' . I trust belief but I do not trust placebo effect which can not exist for long ,as 200+ years.

Coming to the point, please tell if there are possibilties of PE get stored in mixture by any mean as stored in alcohol etc. as I asked previously. As this mixture have two type of compounds than how PE will be stored in these two compounds.

Thanks.
 
Coming to the point: Potential Energy can only be stored in a mixture in the shape of chemical energy. If no chemical reaction takes place, then there is no long term storage of PE. Vigorous shaking, grinding etc. may rise the temperature of the mixture, but this temperature difference soon disappears.

Hans
 
Coming to the point: Potential Energy can only be stored in a mixture in the shape of chemical energy. If no chemical reaction takes place, then there is no long term storage of PE. Vigorous shaking, grinding etc. may rise the temperature of the mixture, but this temperature difference soon disappears.
Click to expand...

I think there is some misunderstanding in this understanding. Molecular rearrangements, polar rearrangements(as in iron to magnet), Molecular forces, lessening of friction(smoothning due to S or T) making better molecular attractions etc. can make it to store some PE in the mixture. You might have noted that triturated items have better/instant effects than the raw items which we practice in our day to day use. I think the equation can be; APPLIED KE = PE STORED + HEAT LOSS. It means first molecules stores the PE and whatever balance they can't use in storing is converted in HEAT & lost.

Furthur, Do you think that if any molecule/s can be converted to atoms & than ATOMS to Sub-atomic particle just by applying KE by S or T. I feel that it may not be normally posible to break as atom by simpler means. OR if some photon type particles on shift of electrons from one orbit to other by S or T can be seprated from atoms or molecules & stored in the mixture. Just a speculation.
 
splitting atoms using only S and T would be next to impossible, I would guess. Most atoms are stable as they are, and will not fission even with a lot of applied energy. Even in nuclear reactions, most atoms arenot broken down to constituent protons, neutrons etc. but just to smaller atoms. To completely split up any reasonably complex nucleus would require you to overcome a large number of strong interactions (Srongest of the four forces at normal energies) The amount of KE you would need to add would be staggering, and most of the energy would be lost as heat and sound anyway.

As to the electrons jumping up an orbital, your best bet would be silicon, which can manage this with the absorbtion of a photon above the correct energy. However, I don't know whether you could do this just by shaking - I would guess that if you shook it hard enough, then enough thermal energy would be transferred to the atom that the electron might jump up an orbital, but you'd be better off asking someone who knows more about this than me. Anyway, IF the electron managed to jump up an orbital, it could concievably become seperated from the atom, but I don't really see what effect this would have.
 
Originally posted by Kumar
Q: I think there is some misunderstanding in this understanding. Molecular rearrangements, polar rearrangements(as in iron to magnet), Molecular forces, lessening of friction(smoothning due to S or T) making better molecular attractions etc. can make it to store some PE in the mixture. You might have noted that triturated items have better/instant effects than the raw items which we practice in our day to day use. I think the equation can be; APPLIED KE = PE STORED + HEAT LOSS. It means first molecules stores the PE and whatever balance they can't use in storing is converted in HEAT & lost.

A: Well, we can always speculate, but I have to repeat: All the mechanisms you mention have been very well researched; over the last 300 years or so, every corner of chemistry and physics have been turned inside out. All the equations add up and confirm each other, so there is very little room for undiscovered functions. After all, what you are looking for is not some freak reaction under special conditions with special substances, quite the contrary: You are looking for some universal principle.

Q: Furthur, Do you think that if any molecule/s can be converted to atoms & than ATOMS to Sub-atomic particle just by applying KE by S or T. I feel that it may not be normally posible to break as atom by simpler means. OR if some photon type particles on shift of electrons from one orbit to other by S or T can be seprated from atoms or molecules & stored in the mixture. Just a speculation.

A: Molecules can be split into atoms and reconfigured into other molecules by chemical reactions. Some chemical reactions are triggered by mechanical influences (think nitro-glycerin :eek: ).

Atoms can be ionized by mechanical and chemical influences, that is, they loose electrons or (more rarely) recieve surplus electrons, making them electrically charged. But the nucleus cannot be split under normal conditions. In fact, "atom" is greek and means "undividable".

Photons are energy. Heat radiation is photons, and light. Photons always move at or close to the speed of light. In VERY SPECIAL situations, they can be temporarily slowed down considerably, but they are not "stored" in a substance.
Click to expand...

Hans
 
As to the electrons jumping up an orbital, your best bet would be silicon, which can manage this with the absorbtion of a photon above the correct energy.However, I don't know whether you could do this just by shaking - I would guess that if you shook it hard enough, then enough thermal energy would be transferred to the atom that the electron might jump up an orbital,
Click to expand...
Hi geodesic,
Thanks. You have indicated a very important point as in above quote. Actually I am very much impressed with silicon/silica which forms just 1/3rd of earth curst but still called inert for us. It may not be usable as medicine in physical doses but it is one of the most (60-70%) prominent remedy in Biochemic System as well as in homeopathy. I sometimes wonder that if all the pathogens(bacteria,virus etc) may take power of their survival and non reactiveness from this Sillica only from earth.

Mr.Hans,
I think the above mentioned indication by geodesic is not yet looked into. Moreover, sillica molecules will be present in physical smaller molecules form so can create effects as indicated in silicea proving. Molecular rearrangements, polar rearrangements(as in iron to magnet), Molecular forces, lessening of friction(smoothning due to S or T) making better molecular attractions etc. also not yet researched ,as I found no no referance.

Apart from this you have also indicated a good point which I was also thinking:
Molecules can be split into atoms and reconfigured into other molecules by chemical reactions. Some chemical reactions are triggered by mechanical influences (think nitro-glycerin ).
Click to expand...
It may be possible that there can be some chemical reaction among the mixture's constituents on applying mechenical energy by T & S. If it is possible than we can safely say that Potential Chemical Energy is stored in newly formed molecules during this T & S process.
I think I made it bit clear or more complicated. :D
 
Kumar, honestly: You are grasping at straws. You are looking for a mechanism that might store a memory of substances like in highly potentialized homeopathic medicines. It would have to be a universal property, since it should work for all substances.

If such a property existed, it would mess up common chemestry. We would know about it. You are looking for a bus in a shed. There might be a spider in one of the corners, but there is no bus.

Hans
 
Hello Mr.Hans,

My problem is that I do not deny anything which is existing since long. I tries to understnd & take all the 'Goods' in anything, may be a spritual or a science.

I feel that all sprituals are based on the basic science & will become our science when we will translate them in our language or will understand their language. This is just a simple problem of translation. It also looks to me that all or most of scientific aspects are initially initiated due to presence of these sprituals which we have translated & expanded in our language. Just take a simple example called 'ONENESS' means everything is created from ' ONE BASIC HIM & HER ' ,which I think is more or less is cleared in my other topic ,' The science of basic elements' . Sprituals are the basis/clues of our science but the problem may be that, we may be translating their language into our language insted of understanding their language directly, so taking lot of time to understand , though not be fully. The best thing to understand them is to initiate some entities with 'Microscopic Eyes' the eyes of our cells being the 'Divya Drishti' with which the ancient basic science was probably formed. They should be capable to see every atomic or sub-atomic happening in the universe.

My second problem is that, I don't believe or accept a thing unless it is understood by me in 'Logic' or in 'Science'. I ,personally observed & fully convinced ' that Homeopathic Remedies do work' but how is just now a unclear aspect which I am only trying to understand.

So please try to discuss the mentioned possibilities in this topic & contribute for good cause. It you have any aspect which is allready disapproved, just give me the referances.

Best Wishes!!
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top