Hitler was a professed Christian

[Cris]

I've seen several references to Hitler in these forums as if he was an atheist. Let's be clear, he was a Christian and he used that belief to justify the attempted extermination of the Jews.

Adolf Hitler (1889-1945)
Austrian-born German Nazi leader

Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933.

We stand at the end of the Age of Reason. A new era of the magical explanation of the world is rising.
-- Adolf Hitler, quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? (2001)

Cris

 

[Avatar]

Hitler was an ocultist (sp). He beleived tht with special rituals he would not be stoppable. I'm sure there is a lot on net about this. try google (I have to learn Europe in the end of Middle Ages now)

 

[Cris]

Yup he used astrology extensively to pick the best dates for launching offensives. Once the allies discovered that, they also become experts in astrology so that they could predict the same dates he would use. His belief kinda backfired on him.

Someone also needs to point out that while he considered himself religious and a Christian there will be many Christians who would not and could not recognize that claim. But then is Osama a Moslem and religious.

In either case a religious factor and irrational beliefs in the supernatural led to enormous evil.

Cris

 

[Adam]

Hitler followed Hegel's idea of Christianity. It went something like this:
- God came into being with/as the universe.
- As the uiniverse developed, so did God.
- At Hitler's time, germany was at the top of the heap technologically, and thus was sort of at the forefront of devlopment/godliness/whatever, so Germans were the closest to God.
- Hitler, as head of the nation closest to god, was God's little buddy.

Something like that anyway. But far more important than Hitler's religious and philosophical beliefs was the fact that he was a plain old nutter. You could insert any old religion or philosophy into the Hitler memorabilia, and he'd still be a nutter who twisted it beyond all recognition.

Me, I'm an atheist. I believe in people, in possibilities and probabilities.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Someone also needs to point out that while he considered himself religious and a Christian[i/]

Nice try!
He may have been religious, but he was not a follower of Christ.


Christians who would not and could not recognize that claim.

Why not?
Lets consider his CV, is there anything in there that resembles anything Christ did or said?
He was an atheist of almost, the lowest degree, his mentor was Aleister Crowley, the most popular satanist. His religion was one of a luciferic consciousness, pretty much what is gripping the world now.
Like you, he was anti-christ.
I don't think Christians would have to much trouble there.

But then is Osama a Moslem and religious.

I don’t know, does he act like a muslim.

In either case a religious factor and irrational beliefs in the supernatural led to enormous evil.

You think you are not religious?

I think not!

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Cris]

Jan et all,

Actually there are tons of info on the web that shows the idiocy of Hitler and his ever-changing views on religion, the supernatural and Christianity.

Here is another quote taken out of context that indicates his professed Christianity.

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by only a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned me to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love, as a Christian and as a man, I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord rose at last in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was the fight for the world against the Jewish poison." (M.N.O. 26)

But when one views his statements chronologically and in the context of who is was trying to convince at the time, then we can conclude he was a Christian, and at other times a materialist. His irrational hatred of the Jews drove him to use almost any justification to destroy them. He came to hate Christianity and that must have set up a paradox in his mind since how could he use that as a justification for killing Jews.

He was one really screwed up individual. He was raised as a catholic and did at one point admire the church and especially its power, but that isn’t really a religious perspective is it. And he did profess his Christianity in Mein Kampf, and that is generally agreed by most scholars on the subject. But like most people, over the years they change their minds.

Taking a single quote out of context and out of sequence is both dangerous and can be highly misleading.

I think I like Adam’s quote –

You could insert any old religion or philosophy into the Hitler memorabilia, and he'd still be a nutter who twisted it beyond all recognition.

So I guess my message here is that when anyone quotes the beliefs of Hitler or any madman like Osama as a case for or against religion then one should seriously consider the wisdom of such claims.

Someone who is deranged is not a good advert for religionists or non-believers.

Cris

 

[Avatar]

Osama is not mad! he's just doing his work; are you?

 

[Cris]

Jan,

Christians who would not and could not recognize that claim.

Why not?
Lets consider his CV, is there anything in there that resembles anything Christ did or said?

Sorry, my statement wasn’t clear, I was actually putting the case for Christians. I agree that it is difficult to see any of the typical Christians views in his statements.

He was an atheist of almost, the lowest degree, his mentor was Aleister Crowley, the most popular satanist. His religion was one of a luciferic consciousness, pretty much what is gripping the world now.
Like you, he was anti-christ.

Here you are not being very clear. I’m not sure if you’ve made a mistake or simply misunderstand atheism.

If Hitler was a Satanist then he could not have been an atheist. Atheists reject the supernatural and Satan is an alleged supernatural entity. Atheists consider all gods, devils, angels, fairies, etc., equally absurd.

What does “atheist of the lowest degree” mean?

Do you consider ‘anti-Christ’ as Satan worship? Primarily I am anti-supernatural, and one could consider anti-Christian as a subset of that state, but it doesn’t follow that I worship an opposite of Christ.

You think you are not religious?

I think not!

What is your justification for that statement?

At the very simplest every religion includes a belief in a supernatural condition of some type, either of gods and/or of souls and spirits.

Atheists have no beliefs in anything allegedly supernatural.

Surely the conclusion must be that atheists cannot be any way religious.

So how do you conclude that I am religious?

Cris

 

[Adam]

I'm an atheist. A-theist. A = no. theism = religion. No religion. However, I do sort of suspect there is something to many things people consider supernatural or whatever. Like psychic stuff, I suspect is actually a natural function of our minds that we have yet to quantify. Spirits, well, maybe there is something of us after death, I have no idea, and I probably won't know until I'm dead. But I don't believe in any Creator mythologies, hells or heavens, anything like that; and I don't follow the books of any religion. Most of them seem a tad silly overall, although most of them also have some damn good idea in them.

So, I don't believe or follow any religion, but I don't rule out the possibility of some things people might consider supernatural or paranormal.

 

[Yes!]

About Osama...

""But then is Osama a Moslem and religious. ""

"I don’t know, does he act like a muslim. "
--------------------------------------------------------

First of all I'd like to point out that terrorism is no more encoraged in the Qu'ran than murder is encoraged in the Bible. Secondly, Osama Bin Laden is religious in the same style as mein kampf era Hitler, that is he uses religion as a method for power. Osama obviously follows a extreme view of Islam and although he most likely believes he is doing god's work he would not be able to defend that view from a scripture point of view. Osama is a muslim, but he is not by any means following the prescriptions of his religion.

 

[Taken]

"In either case a religious factor and irrational beliefs in the supernatural led to enormous evil. "


tsk...tsk...tsk...
:bugeye:
So if a serial killer ascribes to belief in peter pan...is it then in any way the fault of that belief or Walt Disney that the man is crazy?

No the "irrational" beliefs, religouse and other wise, were simply symptomatic of a personal mental illness. The illness and irrational actions were not "caused" by a belief in God. Most rapist and murderers do not claim to be Christian...so how do we now account for them?
Cris you should be ashamed.

 

[Cris]

Ah Taken I love your posts,

Topic: "In either case a religious factor and irrational beliefs in the supernatural led to enormous evil. "

So if a serial killer ascribes to belief in peter pan...is it then in any way the fault of that belief or Walt Disney that the man is crazy?

No because Walt is not portraying his fantasy figure as if it were real.

Unfortunately religions do offer their alleged super beings as if they are real, to be feared, and to be obeyed. Since the Christian god has a written track record of killing those who offend him then I could easily imagine someone wanting to help such a god by following his example and killing the enemies of god, i.e. those who killed his son, the Jews.

No the "irrational" beliefs, religouse and other wise, were simply symptomatic of a personal mental illness. The illness and irrational actions were not "caused" by a belief in God.

The illness is the cause but the actions are reinforced by a belief that a fantasy is real, e.g. a god. If the killer believes that God is personally directing his actions, as many Christians do (follow your heart they might say), and if this killer feels in his heart that he must kill, then religion would seem to sanction and encourage his action.

The irrationality of a belief in a god, i.e. believing something that is either false or cannot be shown to be true, combined with zealous Christians saying a strong belief in Jesus is all you need, may well be enough to allow a killer to feel invulnerable and justified in his actions.

Most rapist and murderers do not claim to be Christian...so how do we now account for them?

I’m not sure I know what most rapists and murderers claim, how do you know most don’t claim to be Christian? Do you have evidence or is that just speculation? But it looks like you felt I was implying that rapists and murderers do claim to believe in the supernatural: I had implied no such thing.

Cris you should be ashamed.

What of?

Cris

 

[Taken]

Well, I can not attest to what they claim either. However it is my conclusion on what knowledge I do have that "temporary insanity" is a more preferable plea than "God told me to do it".
A belief in God is no more the cause of evil in a man than a belief in UFO's or a belief in paranormal ability or a belief in ghosts. In all cases the fault lies solely with in the doers reasoning.
"God told me to do it" is a crutch, an excuse, a scapegoat...that does not make it the fault of God nor the fault of faith in God.

It seems to be human nature to blame anything and everything for our actions and then swear a fight to the death for freedom and rights. We want the authority to act, but not the responsibility of faceing the consequences of our actions. God is just another victim in the great liability debate among men.

I just like keeping you on your toes. I find interacting with you to always be a joyouse experience. I have yet to leave a conversation with you lacking a smile on my face.

 

[G0D]

Cris,

This -

Originally posted by Taken
"God told me to do it" is a crutch, an excuse, a scapegoat...that does not make it the fault of God nor the fault of faith in God.

seems to be yet another instance of "selective" thinking.

Had you posted "Recovering alcoholic was a professed christian", there would have been endless posts saying "praise the lord". And numerous claims that god was responsible for saving the poor guy.

Unfortunately, you posted "hitler was a professed christian". Now, suddenly, "the lord" disappears from the picture. Instead, we are told that we should not make god a "scapegoat".

Nice post. It addresses once again, the weakness of the concept that actions are unimportant - it is the strength of personal belief which matters. Hitler had strong personal belief that he was doing "god's work", and the determination to act on his beliefs. His place in heaven is certianly far more assured than the average believer's.

 

[Hoth]

Originally posted by G0D
Had you posted "Recovering alcoholic was a professed christian", there would have been endless posts saying "praise the lord". And numerous claims that god was responsible for saving the poor guy.

Unfortunately, you posted "hitler was a professed christian". Now, suddenly, "the lord" disappears from the picture. Instead, we are told that we should not make god a "scapegoat".

God shouldn't be involved either way. Just because the "other side" in an argument jumps into associating religion with something when the base cause is likely not very related, that doesn't mean you must make the same mistake in thinking. If you have to reproduce the mistakes other people make in order to keep things fair, you're not accomplishing much.

Hitler used religion. Religion didn't use him.

 

[Taken]

Very true Hoth!

We are in fact free willed beings. If a man does good it is from his own heart and intentions. We have the ability to chose good or evil and that choice is our own. The scripture makes it clear that it is Gods desire for us to chose good but the CHOICE itself is our own and not the responsibility of God.

If someone chooses to follow God and His commandments, which are to do good, then yes it is a good thing. The actions are still solely the mans. If someone choses to follow God and does evil instead then they aren't following Gods commandments and you just have a case of lip service. It is not Gods accountability either way.

Does my belief in the US Government and the laws set forth by them give me the right to reinact manifest destiny and wield it as justification to steal? Is it then the fault of the US Government or of my own lack of reasoning?

 

[Cris]

Taken,

I do like the idea that humans have free will and I hope that is the case, but of course if that is true then there cannot be an omnipotent omniscient creator, since that means that everything from the beginning of time to the end of time would have been pre-determined. And if all your actions are pre-determined than you clearly could not have any free will.

The Christian god clearly is an impossibility since Christianity insists on human free will (the necessity of choosing Jesus as a savior, or going to hell), and an omnipotent omniscient creator. The claims create a paradox.

So how do you see yourself? Do you have free will and hence live in a godless universe, or are you just a pre-programmed slave to an evil super-being?

Cris

 

[Yes!]

Of course by that logic Cris, there cannot be any free will in any action as everything anyone does is simply a reaction to something else.

Everything done is the determined result of all past actions. Of course this deterministic view is sort of blown out of the water by the uncertainty principle, but for practical purposes humans have no free will.

Especially in matters concerning God, being told that God gives us the choice to be saved is as you said, silly. If God knows everything, than what you do now is irrevelent as He sees past and future, and set up the universe in the particular fashion as to create the particular circumstances we experience. Therefore, God knew exactly who would be saved and who would be condemned before he even introduced people into the world, denying any ability for humans to ever have free will.

But then again, I am probibly the only deterministic person still around, since religion says we have free will, and science says everything is uncertain at a quantum level. But in my heart if not my mind I still feel that like Einstein:
"God does not play dice"

 

[TruthSeeker]

Hitler Anti-Christ, NOT Christian!

In either case a religious factor and irrational beliefs in the supernatural led to enormous evil.

That's unfortunatly true... but the people that applies it uses religious factors only to justify their evil actions towards power.

The Truth is that Hitler was much more the Anti-Christ than a Christian. Anti-Christ is anyone that claims religious beliefs to be the reason of their violence.

For example... what's happening today. Osama bin Laden is using the jihad to explain his reasons. But the Qur'an has only a few jihads (three, I think...). They are the only suras that can be denoted as violent.

If Hitler was a Christian against Jews, Osama bin Laden is a Muslim against Christians. This is pretty much the same mistake being repeated.

ALL the Holy books (Bible, Torah and Muslim) talks about the same principles of Love, Compassion and many others such as Humilty, Honesty, etc...

What the evil (or Devil) does is to use them against themselves!
Bringing confusion and disorder to the world.

Read the Holy books and you will see it. There are even people that appears in all of them... like Abraham. He appears in all of them. They just have different opinions and ideas about the same God!! There's only one Religion! If you study the history of the books, you will see that they have different origins, but there's only one Religion. They talks about the God of Abraham!

Hitler used that excuse only to get the Jews' money, because they were rich and the government needed to gain money fast iin order to invest in the Military Industry!

Well... it's pretty much that. For more information see "The Sacred Texts and the Roots of Conflict" of the Feb 22 edition of Newsweek.

Blessings,
Nelson

 

[Cris]

Yes!,

Yes that is the essential argument although there is an argument that does show how human free will is consistent with determinism. I'll see if I can find it again.

However, if everything is a relationship of cause and effect going back to the beginning of time, then yes, it would appear we have no real free will. But if the universe is infinite, i.e. has no starting boundary then there would be no original cause. In which case is everything truly deterministic?

Cris