History of the Holocaust

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Gustav said:
ja, revenge is sweeeet!
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Don't be dense. Revenge requires effort. I'm unwilling to expend energy for so little fruit. This is simple syllogism so you'll understand what I mean just fine.

A + B = C​

Person acts like troll. Trolls get banned. Person who acts like troll gets banned.

~String
 
noodler said:
Correction: there is no way to discuss the Holocaust or its attendant holocaust or even ask questions about it, in a modern setting.

But then the question remains, why is this subject so non-amenable to discussion? Why is it so sensitive? Some people got persecuted, this has happened many times in human history, so why is this one such a big deal, is one question I would like to be able to ask, without the usual vitriol being directed at the question.

Is it OK to question the reasons people anywhere are persecuted, and what the rationale behind persecution and oppression might be? If it is, why is the Jewish case not OK to ask about?

For instance what's wrong with asking why the Jewish state was founded, and what part the Nazi persecution played in this? Isn't there a more or less direct connection? What would the odds be for a modern day Israel if the Holocaust hadn't happened, for instance?

Pointing out the blindingly obvious, "hey, it happened", doesn't address the issue underneath: why did it mean they got a "homeland" given to them, to do with as they pleased? Or is it the case that the Holocaust played no part in its establishment?
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There is nothing wrong with asking any question. I often ask if Mohammad or Jesus or Buddha existed and get varying degrees of shock to yeah, maybe not.

I would like to know more about the history of Jewish persecutions in general. Do they really have historical bases? I read that Egyptians went on a rampage and murdered a lot of Jews living in Alexandria. More than once. Why? Is this true? If not who made it up and why? If it is true why don't Jews integrate well? What are they doing that results in people getting pissed off enough to murder them?

Is there a difference when the Chinese murdered off millions of Aristocratic Chinese? How about when the Romans murdered off Germans living in Italy. Etc... There is nothing wrong with asking the questions.


I always hear people say: Germans killed 6 million Jews. Why don't people say German Christians killed 6 million Germans who were Jewish? Isn't this much more informative? Maybe, Maybe not?

Some people say, when you add in disease, Europeans killed off close to 100 million Native Americans others say no way. Can't we ask? Or is this too Holocaustic? Too close to the bone?
 
This is a good example, probably, of a well thought-out discussion.

Let me ask this, though: would it matter, particularly, it if were 5.5 million? 6.5 million? Should we feel any better or worse if it were 3 million? Is it a worse crime?

I think the issue of punishing such discussion about the Holocaust falls more on intents than numbers: or, why? Why is it up for discussion? Does it really interest some people academically? Those whose fields are neither history nor Holocaust studies? Or is there any other reason that it might come up? The why is more important; this is what the history of the Holocaust, really, is all about. Those who prig about the numbers may not have absorbed this lesson.
 
1. How many people died at the hands of the Nazis?
2. How was the religious identity of the victims determined?
3. What are the records used to study the holocaust?
4. Who kept these records?
5. How was the authenticity of the records determined?
6. What is the evidence supporting the desire of Germans to eliminate the Jewish population?
7. Where did the 6 million figure come from?
8. Which records are available to the public?
9. What is the evidence of the methods used by the Nazis?
10. What efforts were made to compensate other victims of the Nazis?

note: I am not denying the holocaust or its popular narrative. I am interested in the factual information available for discrete analysis.
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May I suggest that your interest should be satisfied by at least some of the sources presented here? :confused:
 
S.A.M. said:
No, the question that needs to be asked is, is it necessary for any person who asks a question about the holocaust to be treated as a denier?
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What makes you assume they are?

If everyone who asked and asks questions about the Holocaust was deemed a denier, then there would be no books about it, no lessons taught in classes or universities about it, no research papers, no discussions about it. But there are thousands of books about the Holocaust, just as it is taught in schools and universities, research continues to be conducted and discussions about it continue to this day.

So to claim that any person who asks questions about it is treated as a denier is false.

People are treated as deniers when they ask questions in an attempt to deny it ever happened. There is a difference. And it is not even subtle.

e.g. if I were to ask, how many children were involved in the Stolen Generation?

Would you doubt if I believed this happened?
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No. Why should it?

But if you asked 'how many children are claimed to be involved in the Stolen Generation' and you were known to be linked to groups or organisations that deny it ever happened, then yes, I would doubt your belief that it happened.

Can you see the difference?

The fact is that after almost 50 posts, no one [except Straw Dog and spidergoat] has simply come forward and provided any responses without assigning motive to the asker. And I am still waiting for any direct responses from the ones who have much to say about why the question is being asked but little to provide in the form of responses.
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Ah. Funny that.

The irony.

i.e. what do they have to hide?
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Who? The Jews?

Do you think the Jews have something to hide, Sam?

So my question is, do YOU doubt it happened as they say?
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Yes.

Only I believe it was probably much worse than they actually say. Because words can never convey the true horror of that they (the victims) experienced.

Do YOU have doubts that the questions can be answered or that there is any evidence for the numbers and motives and methods?
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Questions can and should be answered. The problem arises when the answers are not believed because some crackpot thinks they are hiding something.

So what about you Sam? Do you doubt it happened as they say?
 
Do you doubt it happened as they say?
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As who say? My only acquaintance with what they say is restricted to a museum visit and the odd Hollywood movie or the odd book of fiction [eg The Reader]

I probably know more about the Aboriginals and the Palestinians than I do about the Holocaust. And what I do know about the Holocaust, I have learned primarily in the context of the Palestinian refugee crisis [Warsaw Ghetto, child insurgents, human shields, tunnels to smuggle food and weapons, collaborators and militants like Irgun and Haganah]

Do I doubt it happened as they say it did? Only as much as I would the Palestinians in a similar situation. I'm sure that there are inconsistencies here and there, but overall can anyone pretend that nothing happened or that it wasn't really really bad? Not really, unless you're a kind of superficial disinterested person who knows little about the what was happening but expresses an opinion anyway.

Denying the Holocaust is equivalent to an argument from ignorance.
 
As a Jew, do you know what the most offensive part about the crusades, inquisition, and Holocaust are?

The fact that we have never once recieved an apology from any significant power for any of them....
 
leopold99 said:
apparently hitler thought it was the fault of the jews for the state europe was in.
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I think it was just a big misunderstanding.

"Eva, you are going shopping yes? I want carrots, and fish. No more juice!"

"No more Jews? Jawohl mein fuhrer"


You know what accents are like. :shrug:
 
Anti-Flag said:
I think it was just a big misunderstanding.

"Eva, you are going shopping yes? I want carrots, and fish. No more juice!"

"No more Jews? Jawohl mein fuhrer"


You know what accents are like. :shrug:
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hitler_child_eliminated_all_the_juice.jpg
 
Anti-Flag said:
I think it was just a big misunderstanding.

"Eva, you are going shopping yes? I want carrots, and fish. No more juice!"

"No more Jews? Jawohl mein fuhrer"


You know what accents are like. :shrug:
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"Guh. Silly Euros, innit? All a pack of swots, you ask me."
 
Michael said:
I always hear people say: Germans killed 6 million Jews. Why don't people say German Christians killed 6 million Germans who were Jewish? Isn't this much more informative?
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It's much less informative, given how it's factually incorrect. The vast majority of those 6 million were not Germans but Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Romanians, Dutch, Belorussians, etc. Less than 5% of them were Germans/Austrians; those countries only hosted a couple hundred thousand Jews prior to the war.

The simplest, most informative thing to say would be: the Nazis killed 6 million European Jews.
 
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