Heterosexuality is unnatural

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c20H25N3o said:
So to summarise ...

You believe the 'system' lends itself to creating a dangerous polarisation of gay men and heterosexual men and the results of that polarisation is bad for all men?

Who designed the system? A system of such compelexity would require collaboration. Who are the collaboraters? Where do you start?

Thanks

c20

It all happened very very slowly, over thousands of years. Men were very powerful but they it was so slow that they were not smart enough to notice it and by the time they knew it they were well enchained by what I call the "social mechanism of male oppression". You do realise that it is possible for humans to train even the most powerful creatures on earth into obedience -- and that includes one of their own.

The basic motive of the society was to force men's sexual energy into procreation, because they were inhabiting new areas and they needed more people than nature was designed to give to humans. It was greed that started it.

Of course religion took over, and it wanted to expand and rule the world, so it used violence against men who were already much weakened over the past centuries.

And then came science and it gave us homosexuality and heterosexuality to take male social oppression to extreme heights.
 
HISTORY OF MALE OPPRESSION

At the dawn of the human civilisation, men and women lived as two distinct groups, Women’s primary drive in life was to raise children. They raised them together with other women. Sex with men was primarily meant for reproduction. Any sexual bonding/ intimacy happened only amongst women. Men, like his cousin the Chimpanzees, mated with women only occasionally, most mated a few times in their lives and many preferring not to mate at all. The primary drive of men was to bond with other men --- this bond helped them to stay together in strongly bonded groups, when otherwise their competition instinct would make them kill each other. The survival of the male group depended upon how cohesive they were. It ensured that they could find food, protect their clan from enemy gangs and it even helped in mating with the female, when the time came. Only as much procreation happened as the nature could sustain healthily --- so that humans could live without disrupting the nature.

Initially, (and that must have been the way for a long time) there was a group of males that did not consider itself male, so did not live in the male group --- nor did things that other men did – including bonding with other men. They either lived with the women’s group as ‘women’ and bonded with them (as in the case of sheep) or perhaps they paired off with women and lived seperately from both the women’s and men’s group (as with sea lions). They were neither men nor women. That is the closest we can get to ‘heterosexuals’ in natural times. And they were Transexuals. These men were considered two-spirited (both man and woman in the same body) and given a lot of restpect. They often practised as priests, healers, etc. Transexuals/ Heterosexuals performed an extemely important function --- that of being the bridge between two totally distinct groups of men and women.

Being included in the man’s group was extremely important for masculine gendered men. It was a matter of life and death, for a man could not live on his own if somehow he was not included in the man’s group. Male children grew up in the women’s group till they reached adolescence. Then they were initiated into the male group. The Initiation usually included ‘tests’ that the boy had to go through. These ‘tests’ or the original ‘proofs’ of manhood tested the man’s masculinity and his ability to hunt, fight etc.

The boy was paired off with an older youth in a marriage like ceremony which might have included rituals where the older youth put his semen into the boy which symbolically meant that he was being purified of his femininity (after spending so many years in the female group) and the entry of semen symbolised giving manhood to the boy.

But some boys, including the ‘heterosexual’ boys could not complete the tests. The heterosexual boys were not considered boys in the first place and they were honorably exempt from the test. They had a different course in life. But masculine gendered boys who failed had it tough. They were excluded from the male group. They then lived as lesser men, which meant they had little access to community’s resources, no chance of bonding with another man and no chance of mating with a female.

It was a thing of great honour to be included as a ‘man’ and a great dishonour to be a ‘lesser man’. This is the original concept of ‘manhood’ which later became ‘social manhood’ (and in the modern west ‘straighthood’). A man’s honour or manhood could also be lost after he proved himself as a man --- e.g. if he broke an important custom or showed cowardice in war. It was possible, perhaps, for lesser and outcast men to gain back their honour and social status when they fulfilled certain conditions, e.g., bringing the head of an enemy.

*****************

At one point in the development of human civilisation, when humans started settling in far flung isolated areas, they needed to increase their population more than was possible naturally. This is the reason why a social mechanism was introduced that sought to bind men into social contracts with women (the marriage institution). Men were given several sops, which in due course of time, included ownership of ‘wife’ and ‘children’ (lineage) and easy social manhood. Eventhough the woman gave birth to the child, it was hailed as a man’s achievment. Thus, producing a son came to mean that the man had finally proved his manhood and was worthy of inclusion in the male group --- a group which had suffered a blow after the marriage institution required man and woman to live together.

Sexual bonds between men were a great hindrance since the beginning of the marriage institution, because (a) they were extremely common, (b) they were the preferred bonds and thus stopped men from diverting their sexual energy towards women for procreation, and (b) such bonds made men powerful, and prone to being rebels/ nuisance in enforcing the marriage institution. This heralded efforts to reign in such bonds.By the time of the Greeks, male bonds were celebrated and institutionalised but only for a certain time (first half) in a man’s life. He had to perform his social duty of procreation and raising of children in the other half of his life. But the life for men was still balanced between natural needs and social duty.

However producing a child was not the only way to prove one’s manhood (and this was the case till the modern times) and certainly did not completely replace important masculine characteristics. Procreation was especially exempted for macho/ warrior traditions where men did not have to mate with women --- in fact it was forbidden and seen as a feminising factor for men. But for ordinary men, marriage was also linked with competition between men thus increasing the importance of male-female bonds in a man’s life. Winning a bride increased a man’s honour. Then there were several punishments for not ‘marrying’ without a socially acceptable reason (acceptable reasons included: following the macho or spiritual path).. This came to include depriving the man of social manhood which meant barring him from the male community and throwing him together with lesser men. As time passed by and ‘straight’ men and women started sharing life, bringing down the difference between man and woman, the importance of feminine males (heterosexuals) decreased, and soon femininity became a redundant quality. Soon the category of lesser males --- the dust bin for rejected, dishonoured and outcaste men was combined with the third sex/ gender.

There are two possibilities about the existence of ‘homosexuals’ of today in the ancient world. They were either exceptions amongst the transexuals or they are a result of social feminising of men (through marriage) translating into biological feminising through evolution over a long period of time (Scientists have been talking about this possibility!). But by the time of the Greeks, when sexual bonds between men was highly regulated, though still institutionalised, the third sex was allowed to have sex with men --- and we know of a special category of third sex --- the catamites who were disgraced as people who want to have receptive anal intercourse with men as an assertion of their femininity. By the time of the Greeks penetrative sex (whether with a man or woman) became the hallmark of a man, and receptive anal sex that of women and third sex.

However, there are also evidences that from Greek times till the medieval times, the third sex had a respectable and powerful place in the society – at least in non-Christian societies. E.g. Alexander is said to have been in love with a powerful eunuch. So, it is possible that the thing about catamites could have exaggerated by writers in the Christian era who wrote about the Greek times.

Around the Christian era, the category of lesser males was officially called the ‘third-sex’ even though they had a powerful position in the society and were considered a source of sexual gratification for men. Thus men, it was believed could have sex with men, women and the third sex. Anyone who was physically unfit to reproduce was thrown into the ‘third sex’ category. It included impotent men, hermaphrodites and eunuchs. The eunuch thing was probably initiated by transexuals who used it to rid themselves of the male identity, although men were also castrated by nobles who kept them to safeguard their harems.

Men who refused to get married without the acceptable excuses ran the risk of being thrown into the ‘third-sex’ category (which had no place for masculine gendered men). They were assumed to be physically incapable to have sex. There was no concept of there not being a sexual interest. Marriages were never thought of as being there to fulfill sexual urges. They were there primarily to sustain reproduction. And interest or no interest, if you are capable of producing a child you must marry and prove your manhood. In later times however the focus of social manhood shifted from reproduction to a ‘capability’ to have sex with women, although producing a son was still important. In fact having a son became the final proof of being ‘capable’ to have sex with women.

Thus masculine men who had little sexual interest in women at all, or those who had an interest in sex but no inlination to share their lives with women could either decide to force themselves to get married (it was not such a big deal though, all you needed to do was to fuck them once in a blue moon and beget a child. Once you got a son, your social manhood and honour were safe) or could choose a spiritual or (especially in case of macho men) choose a macho/ warrior tradition which required men to keep away from women. The society allowed this as a respectable excuse/ cover from marriage without running the risk of being thrown into the ‘third sex’ category. These sects of spiritual or macho traditions openly celebrated male bonds --- including sexual intimacy, although later when societies banned these feelings, the sects disguised their traditons involving male eroticism and sexual bonding.

********************

Christianity (and later Islam) changed the course of human civilisation by making man’s spiritual needs into a matter of social identity (much like what the west has done with his sexual needs today), in order to consolidate the powers that came from people’s faith in God. They needed to expand and rule the world, and thus needed to grow their population, and sexual bonds between men which were too common and acceptable in their era --- even glorified by earlier Christian sects called Gnostics/ heretics --- were a great annoyance. So they played their most potent card and brought in God to rule ‘sex between men’ as one of the gravest sins punishable by death. Earlier cultures were content with restricting male-male bonds, they did not need to wipe them off totally from the mainstream male society. By using people’s blind faith, religion now blatantly used violence to kill men, till sexual bonds between men went totally underground and/ or was restricted to a few.

But even then the society did not make a distinction between sexual desire for men and sexual desire for women, nor did it think that men who have sexual desire for men are different and seperate than those who have sexual desire for women. Or that most men are not capabable of sexual desire for other men. In fact, they knew too well that men in general have a tendency to get sexually attached with other men. Old timers still say that if the society talks about ‘homosexuality’ (sic) positively, everyone will become a ‘homosexual’ (sic).

In the medieval era, in some parts of the world initial attempts were made to reign in sexual bonds between men by using a weapon even more powerful than religion --- that of social manhood. Perhaps these efforts were limited to the academic/ scholarly sections which did not have a large influence. Sex with men was associated as intricately linked with the disgraced third sex (as evidenced by the book Kamsutra, although it also talks of sexual acts indulged in by two men). And though men were considered capable of indulging in sex with other men, it was considered as dishonourable for men. It seems to have a strong effect --- in those places where sexual bonds between men went underground without violence.

In due course of time Christian societies too adopted this extremely effective strategy of controlling sex between men in the mainstream society by making it dishonourable thing and associating this desire with the third sex. The Christian societies of course used this in addition with the violent laws that forbade sex between men. Non Christian/ Islamic societies knew of no conscious effort by the society to punish sex between men. These societies just stopped acknowledging that sex between men takes place.

But sexual intimacy between men still flourished all over the world --- although secretly, in disguise and behind the scenes --- whether because of a fear of violence or that of social dishonour. The third gender/ sex (today’s homosexuals) feared violence more, they did not care much for social manhood. But social mascullinity had a strong impact on the outward sexual behaviour or masculine (today’s straight) men. One thing that helped this was that inspite of the marriage institution, men and women still lived largely separate lives (in keeping with their nature) and male-female bonds were highly uncommon --- even though the society had started celebrating them through arts and culture. And there were plenty of social opportunities. Such intimacies could easily flourish in the guise of male friendships, as deep male friendships were still celebrated. And physical closeness between men was very common. In addition, the sects of men that exempted men from marriage were still strong, though they had hidden the erotic element in them. And in many non-Christian societies --- the noblemen were allowed to develop sexual intimacies with other men, though they were still restricted for the common man.

*****************

The modern west changed all that. It all started as religion started loosing its influence and sceince took over. Religious power could no longer be used to keep men from bonding with other men. And then another new thing happened. The ancient social mechanism of male oppression (through its reward and punishment strategies to control male sexual behaviour) had given extraordinary powers/ benefits to a section of the society (including some men and women) who are minority. These ‘vested interests’* sought to consolidate this power in the new age through a process called ‘heterosexualisation’ of the society.

The heterosexualisation of a society includes the following:

- abolishing all male-only spaces and making them mixed gender spaces with heterosexual values.

- Abolishing all social customs that may facilitate disguised/ behind the scenes bonding between men and enforcing heterosexual customs like dating, mixed-sex dancing, male-female social kissing, etc. Thus while man and woman can walk hand in hand in public, kiss publicly and even share a bed without eyebrows being raised, in many parts of the heterosexual world two men walking hand in hand may attract hostile cries of ‘homo’ or ‘fags’.

- Glorifying male-female casual sex, and freeing it from the burden of procreation/ marriage.

- Throwing all other human relations in the back ground: Male female sexual desire becomes the supreme human quality upon which the entire society is hinged. The right of the male-female couple is the supreme, superceding that even of one’s parents and siblings. Divorces and single parenthood become common as marriages are now based on shaky male-female romance rather than the social duty to raise children.

- Homosexualisation of male-male love: The heat on male-male love is intensified, making it an unmanly quality that robs a man of his social manhood and power, and throwing it into the feminised/queer/marginalised homosexual space. Introducing the concept of ‘sexual orientation’ was one of the important tools to isolate men who still bonded with men. They abolished the traditional and natural division of men based on their gender and introduced an ‘unnatural’ division based on ‘sexual orientation’.

- Breaking men from men: Creating a social condition where men just can’t bond with each other apart from superficially. Man stops relating with other men and is trained from the beginning to relate with women. Heterosexualisation creates a wall between men.

- Feminising and disempowering men: Taking away men’s rights, and increasing his social masculinity pressures.

- Giving extraordinary and exploitative powers to women:
 
spuriousmonkey said:
Sexual selection explains a lot I'm afraid.
Why should I take your word for it?

Especially when it flies straight in the face of my profound work and personal experience.

If we were discussing this in the last decade, I would not have much power even if I knew I was right and you would have won with your lies. But today I have science with me. So I'm not that weak you see!
 
Avatar said:
The Earth is hardly overpopulated. There's plenty of uninhabited and suited for habitation land,
besides the birth rates in Europe and Russia have very decreased (Russia is dying out actually).
You overestimate the power of humans and underestimate that of nature and life as such.


That article you quoted mentioned new desert areas appearing. Didn't a really large lake practically disappear in the last two decades, being replaced by a salt flat or something? It was something like that.
Russia doesn't have the robust economy that America does. In fact, the per capita income is less than pretty much EVERY Western European country. Low as in half or less. And I know the collapse of Communism was hard on it.
It's very understandable that they would have a decrease in population.
 
Giambattista said:
That article you quoted mentioned new desert areas appearing. Didn't a really large lake practically disappear in the last two decades, being replaced by a salt flat or something? It was something like that.
Russia doesn't have the robust economy that America does. In fact, the per capita income is less than pretty much EVERY Western European country. Low as in half or less. And I know the collapse of Communism was hard on it.
It's very understandable that they would have a decrease in population.
I'm not very well read on this, but I think the major part of Russia which is in Asia (Siberia) is uninhabitable with extreme weather conditions and no vegetation, and that is one reason why it has such a little population. But if you ask me, it is more than enough for the kind of environment that Russia has. Anything more will be a burden on nature.
 
Giambattista said:
What masculinity means to me is frivolous cultural
behaviors a person is supposed to perform according to their genders.

Maybe it means something different to you, but in my eyes, it stands for talking loudly and boasting of your manly exploits, like hunting, beating people up, laughing at weakness and separating yourself from it, talking (sometimes incessantly) about women and sex with them, making sure that you know all about at least one sport (baseball, football, basketball, etc.) and that you're up to date on everything major in the sports world, cars, women again, and talking loudly about it some more. THAT is what masculinity means to me. The more a person is like this, the more masculine I consider them, and the less I tend to like them.
Gender is very much a biological phenomenon and howsoever technological progress we make will continue to be an important aspect of our existence. The western society doesn't acknowledge gender as being natural. It 'theorises' it as being caused by one's environment. Western Socioligists and Gender activists describe Gender as being equivalent to Gender roles. Yes indeed masculinity has been propagated by the society as conforming to the gender roles laid down by it. But that is not true gender.

We all have a sense of being male or female despite our outer sex. This sense of being male or female may be described as our inner sex. Our outer and inner sex may not match. Our inner sex is known as Gender, and it is determined by biological factors. There are two kinds of Genders --- Masculine and Feminine . Of course we all have both masculine and feminine genders in different degrees.

Men whose inner sex is predominantly male/ masculine are according to my definition 'straights'. What and who they like in sex is iimmaterial according to this definition. This definition is based on people's biological nature as opposed to 'sexual orientation' which is forced by the heterosexual society, and is of too little importance to decide the social identity of people or seggregate them from one another.

Men whose inner sex is predominantly female/ feminine are according to me 'queers' though if it is a negative term I'd like to use the ancient term --- 'two spirits'. Again it does not matter who and what they like in sex.

Males whose inner sex has almost equal amounts of both masculinity and femininity are as per my definition Meterosexuals. Again it does not matter what they prefer in sex.

This western unacknowledgement of gender as a natural phenomenon is the root cause of many distress that science causes to people. E.g., it considers transexual men to be 'diseased' and refuses to acknowledge them as being naturally carrying the feminine gender to an extreme degree.

What you have described above is a mixture of natural masculine (but misguided feelings) interspersed with negative masculinity encouraged by the heterosexual society and lots of things which either have nothing to do with true masculinity or being averse to the very essense of masculinity (like heterosexuality itself, which is in fact queer --- I'm still proving that!).
 
>>>source

This study is currently under investigation by the federal Office of Research Integrity for possible scientific misconduct, because one of the study collaborators alleges that Hamer suppressed data that would have reduced the statistical significance of the reported results.

Hamer’s group examined DNA samples from self-identified gay men and other gay male family members. The researchers claim they have found a DNA segment, called a "marker," on the X chromosome, the chromosome men inherit only from their mother and not from their father. They say that most, though not all, gay men within a family share such a marker. (In a more recent study, they conclude that lesbian sisters do not share this marker.) They now hope that by defining this marker more closely, they will be able to identify a "gene for gayness" on the X chromosome.

...

Only social and political remedies will counter discrimination. Biology is not the issue: society at present protects people against discrimination for choices such as religion (including converts), marital status, or political affiliations. Genetic predisposition is not necessary to create these legal protections.


>>> End Source
 
Buddha1 said:
It all happened very very slowly, over thousands of years. Men were very powerful but they it was so slow that they were not smart enough to notice it and by the time they knew it they were well enchained by what I call the "social mechanism of male oppression". You do realise that it is possible for humans to train even the most powerful creatures on earth into obedience -- and that includes one of their own.

So you are saying macho powerful types have always oppressed sensitive men into being insensitive dumb beasts like they were?

The basic motive of the society was to force men's sexual energy into procreation

Right, so now you are agreeing with spurious monkey about sexual selection.

Ah but wait ...

, because they were inhabiting new areas and they needed more people than nature was designed to give to humans. It was greed that started it.

Oh yeah, greed ? :rolleyes:

Where did that come from?!?

Of course religion took over, and it wanted to expand and rule the world, so it used violence against men who were already much weakened over the past centuries.

Right so you blame mankind's greed for the supression of our alledged real desire for same-sex relationships.

And then came science and it gave us homosexuality and heterosexuality to take male social oppression to extreme heights.

Procreation is survival. Have you ever had your survival threatened? There is something hardwired in our biology to survive even against the odds. Think of that survival instinct like a signature that runs through every biological process, right down to the core. It is our basic instinct to procreate our species. For this reason we are generally speaking in favour of heterosexual relationships because they are key to the struggle for survival of the species.

I think at a subconcious level people want to pass on their genes. There is something particulary satisfying knowing you leave children who may have children and so on. Letting the branch of which you were a part, grow on and on from your seed. There are of course a vast majority of couples who live successfully together and really enjoy their children and grandchildren, for whom concepts of sexuality are not an issue. The first non-blood relationship a child experiences is that of their parents. Thats probably a pretty big psychological marker that determines the nature of the sexual relationships that that child will prefer when they are old enough to choose a partner. There will be exceptions to that rule surely but in the main, this is how society is made up where I am from.

The greed statement is a theory at best right?

peace

c20
 
Buddha1 said:
I'm not very well read on this, but I think the major part of Russia which is in Asia (Siberia) is uninhabitable with extreme weather conditions and no vegetation, and that is one reason why it has such a little population. But if you ask me, it is more than enough for the kind of environment that Russia has. Anything more will be a burden on nature.

Compared to most (if not all) western countries (USA, Canada, Britain, France, Spain, Germany, etc.) Russia and the other eastern European countries are not very well off. My mother once visited some relatives in Czechoslovakia, and she said that they considered a new pair of shoes to be a rare luxury! You had to save and save for them. Everything went towards food and housing. I'm sure it's not quite that bad these days, but I really hate these pointless "Oh, the world NEVER has enough babies!" arguments. Sure in America we have WalMart (department/everything superstore) with it's "Everyday Low Prices" but pretty much all of it is foreign/third world produced, and some of it is controversial, like pretty much the result of slave labour in Asia.

Oh, yes! People make progress! Some people have it just dandy! The problem with it is, often it comes at someone else's expense. Something gets destroyed so that somewhere else, something can be built. But this isn't one of those perfect systems were whatever was destroyed is easily replaced. There's generally a deficit that goes unpaid for. And the deficit builds. And people are aware of it, but HEY! It's a party over here! We'll worry about it some other day!

It's ABUNDANTLY CLEAR, despite what our President and various minions, especially of the conservative persuasion say, that weather patterns are acting just a little bizarre. And that this very well be a continuing trend, with a permanent sense. I guess I should just say global warming. Or climate change.

Near where I live, there have been droughts that have been lasting an unusually long time. Farmers are in dire financial straits, and ranchers have had to sell off large amounts of their cattle because no rain = no grass, and no grass = no food for the cows. This was their livelyhood, but now it's more of a burden with little return or gain. Alot of farms and ranches stay in families, but if this continues, there isn't going to be much to pass on.

Now, that may be local, and not everyone is affected, but it goes to prove my point about the future as it pertains to children, which are supposed to be the future. Some people that may have thought their future was in ranching "Just like Dad!" will have to think again. Alot of people will have to think again, I'm guessing.

Forget it. People are dumb. If people want to justify mindless procreation, then they will find a way, even when their answer is as stupid as "But isn't it better to be alive then never have been created at all?" Extremely poor people have lots of children, which is a sad but undeniable fact. You would think that famines would be enough to make people smarter, but apparently the world is determined and persistent in it's idiocy.
 
"Religious injunctions"
i dont care what the bible/koran/whatever says, ill ignore it

"Legal injunctions"
does anyone really pay attention to the law when it comes to relationships??

"Social measures and injunctions"
i must live in a nicer neighborhood then you, because i dont see any of that
 
Buddha1 said:
Men whose inner sex is predominantly female/ feminine are according to me 'queers' though if it is a negative term I'd like to use the ancient term --- 'two spirits'. Again it does not matter who and what they like in sex.

Males whose inner sex has almost equal amounts of both masculinity and femininity are as per my definition Meterosexuals. Again it does not matter what they prefer in sex.

Do you mean METRO sexual, or METERO? I'm somewhat familiar with the term metrosexual. Or is this a combination of "metro" and "hetero" like a play on words? Hmm...

All I know is that I feel an affinity for pretty much neither gender. Well, sexually I prefer my own kind! :p But, as far as roles are concerned, neither, although I think I already explained my feelings on that fairly well.

Now, you've mentioned that apparently "gay" people get even angrier about your theories than "hetero" people do. Why on earth is this so? I seem to be the only person who finds credibility in your beliefs, and I happen to think my own kind is just beautiful! (I would just LOVE a clone of me! How's that for my own kind?)

Or is this simply a majority of gay people your referring to? When I hear the term "gay community" or even worse "gay LIFESTYLE" (<-- anti-gay people use that phrase alot) I never feel much of a connection to any of this. I don't their version of "pride". I have pride, but a different colour altogether.

Is there some mass-marketed identity your thinking of? :confused:

Baci,

Il Salvatore
 
And I REALLY love it when gay people are called sodomites. The SODOMITE AGENDA! I have this agenda to laugh! And laugh! And talk to myself, so that I can laugh more! I'm an addict! So I'm doubly hell bound.
 
Giambattista said:
Now, you've mentioned that apparently "gay" people get even angrier about your theories than "hetero" people do. Why on earth is this so? I seem to be the only person who finds credibility in your beliefs, and I happen to think my own kind is just beautiful! (I would just LOVE a clone of me! How's that for my own kind?)

Or is this simply a majority of gay people your referring to? When I hear the term "gay community" or even worse "gay LIFESTYLE" (<-- anti-gay people use that phrase alot) I never feel much of a connection to any of this. I don't their version of "pride". I have pride, but a different colour altogether.

Giambatista, I think you should really stop seeing this world as being heterosexual and homosexual --- if you want to get at the truth! Nothing that I say is getting accross to you. You are not even trying. I know it's not your fault --- that's what you've seen all your life. But there is a big world out there outside the controlled heterosexual society that the west is.

Gay men (i.e. the feminine men) find the gay identity very empowering. On the other hand masculine men (straight men) feel like fish out of water in it. Now Gay men are not willing to concede that this world is divided into homosexual and heterosexual. They want anyone who likes men to be 'gay' --- so they impose the identity on straight men. Any attempt to break the homosexual identity is met with fierce opposition.


Giambattista said:
Is there some mass-marketed identity your thinking of? :confused:

I don't need to invent it. It's already there. Just get out of the western world. A big chunk of men in my country have sex with other men, but they don't think of themselves as 'homosexual'. A homosexual for them means someone who is feminine and wants receptive anal sex. People here don't relate to sexual identities and their is no concept of 'sexual orientation'. Men are naturally supposed to like any sex including sex with men. But there is a strong concept of 'gender orientation' and males who live like or behave like females are seen as different people. In a negative way --- but it is a lot more positive than the western society's treatment of 'queers'. 'Homo' in my country means 'feminine' and that is the most apt meaning of the word --- no matter how the West defines. it. In my country a person is defined as 'homo' even if he his feminine even if his sexual attraction is solely towards women.

Giambatista, I really think you are not paying attention.
 
alain said:
"Religious injunctions"
i dont care what the bible/koran/whatever says, ill ignore it

Kudos to you. But that does not minimze the harm they do to others -- and the society as a whole. They have power, real power. And that also does not change the course of repressive history that they brought about. They have influence not only on the believers, their families and friends but on entire thought processes, on culture, on science, on law.....


"Legal injunctions"
does anyone really pay attention to the law when it comes to relationships??
I read of an incident in Americal where a woman was denied to see her dying female lover with whom she spent her entire life, because she was not her legal relative.

And heterosexuality does not affect just relationships it affects almost every aspect of a man's life.

You would be made to feel miserable and kicked out of the army if you're seen as so-called 'gay'.


"Social measures and injunctions"
i must live in a nicer neighborhood then you, because i dont see any of that
That you don't see them does not mean they don't exist. Often whether we see them or not depends on who we are. Whether we are on the receiving end or not. Both homosexuals and heterosexuals benefit hugely from these social measures. So if you really relate with either one of them, you are not likely to see the injustice.

In any case, this thread is meant to expose all those pressures that people went through but never consciously realised their existence as these pressures were disguised/ hidden.
 
spuriousmonkey said:
I haven't even said anything yet and I am already lying.
Are you forgetting your 'cute' little theory on the other thread about 'successful homosexuality being a paradox'. You gave explanations for your entire theory in just two lines quoting the theory of evolution.

And when I probed you further, you made a hasty retreat citing an alleged lack of belief in the theory of evolution.
 
c20H25N3o said:
So you are saying macho powerful types have always oppressed sensitive men into being insensitive dumb beasts like they were?
C2o please :rolleyes:

Are you purposedly distorting what I said?

c20H25N3o said:
Right, so now you are agreeing with spurious monkey about sexual selection.
C2o. Changing human behaviour by putting a gun on their head does not in my point of view support 'sexual selection'. :rolleyes: Sexual selection is supposed to happen at individual level not to be artificially brought about by social injunctions.

c20H25N3o said:
Ah but wait ...
Oh yeah, greed ? :rolleyes:
Where did that come from?!?

Where do you think? From a need to compete with nature. To put a hole in the bowl that we eat from. To kill the chicken that lays the golden egg to get all the eggs at one go. From a desire to rule the world rather than minding one's own business.

c20H25N3o said:
Right so you blame mankind's greed for the supression of our alledged real desire for same-sex relationships.

Not mankind's greed, but of those who were controlling the society at those times. According to a hunch of mine, and its just that, I can't even prove it to myself --- The two-spirited men may have a hand in it. It is probable that men in the ancient world spent their time hunting gathering, preparinig food and all that (men and women did not live together!), the politics and stuff like that was probably left to the two spirited people who were extremely respected and men and women both paid heed to them.

These two-spirited people by the way had some people who preferred bonds with women, some with themselves and some with men. Unlike men who preferred bonds with other men and sometimes the two-spirited males, and had sex with women only for procreation. Thus only the two-spirited amongst the males had bonds with women.
 
Buddha1 said:
Well, people have done that several times earlier when they fail to prove themselves. I think heterosexual males are just not chivalrous enough to admit defeat when they meet it.
I see that you have deleted the post where you conceded to my assertions. Perhaps you have found new clues.
 
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