Heterosexuality is unnatural

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Buddha1 said:
I mean you cannot create a society which celebrates sex for pleasure between man and women, without the burden of marriage or procreation, and expect that men will not ask for freedom to have sex for pleasure with men!

I mean when you allow non-procreative sex for pleasure what difference does it make if it is with a woman or a man!

Finally, some sense. Your last statement was wierd and I couldn't make sense of it. You are right about these statements though. But the problem is that we all have the freedom to choose and we cannot disallow non-procreative sex for pleasure, so we are in a fix here. As I said before, because of this logic you present a good argument for any non-Christian. If it was a "moral" thing to be heterosexual, then you are right, as a "moral" society we could not allow sex for pleasure and expect men not not ask for sex with men for pleasure, lest we would have a double standard against homosexuals.
 
Buddha1 said:
You know damn well that what you are saying is against the spirit of your religion.

Making a man and a woman was not for pleasure. Did he not ask Adam not to eat the apple? And in any case God did expect the humans afterwards to have sex only for procreation and within marriage! Am I wrong?

No, you are right. Sex is reserved for procreation, but we are commanded to be fruitful and procreate often. Paul's perspective is that we are to seperate only for prayer in marriage and not withhold ourselves from our partner, sexually. So, from God's perspective we are to be heterosexual, but most of the "heterosexuals" are not really heterosexual and might just be sexual as nature models in the animal kingdom.

I think you are on to something there, Buddah, and it is making me all the more firm on being a true heterosexual...which will require unnatural sacrifice on my part, because it is not natural to be homosexual or heterosexual. By golly, I think I get what you are saying. Good luck trying to get the rest of the world to understand! :eek: Try not to come across so arrogant (black and white) in your next argument, instead use inductive reasoning and a lot of questions to get the other party thinking instead of defensive.

This all makes sense, but it is a matter of perspective of the definition of what is natural. I mean, for a Christian, God's is considered to be natural living and it is everything else that is not natural. But, perhaps that is a misconception that has been plaguing even me, and the reverse is actually the truth.
 
jayleew said:
Finally, some sense.
I know, I decided to talk in a language you'd understand!

jayleew said:
You are right about these statements though. But the problem is that we all have the freedom to choose and we cannot disallow non-procreative sex for pleasure, so we are in a fix here.

Is that it?

It is an important question and before you resolve this 'fix' you don't have a moral right to preach men to stop having sex with men. Why not be completely honest with your ideals? Why be selective? If you attack all forms of casual sex, you'd have a more sound case against 'homosexuality'. But for that you'll have to discard the heterosexual identity.

Otherwise you'd be seen as a biased person pushing your own personal (so-called) 'homophobic' agenda misusing religion.

You can't just agree with me and then go on about your business of flaunting the heterosexual identity which celebrates sex for pleasure between man and woman, and expecting the so-called homosexuals to stop even form deep commited sexual bonds.

jayleew said:
because of this logic you present a good argument for any non-Christian.

Why are my arguments valid only for non-christians. Can you show me evidences from your religious books that promote heterosexuality, i.e. casual non-procreative sex between unmarried men and women?



jayleew said:
Your last statement was wierd and I couldn't make sense of it. You are right about these statements though.
Which statement are you talking about?

What did you find so wierd?

What did you not understand?
 
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Giambattista said:
I only happily wrote all that out because of your comments on the Bible and what it supposedly says about homosexuality. But people have every right to challenge those assumptions.

I cannot disagree with that. The truth is in the Bible, but the Bible is fallible written by the fallible.

I hold my position on God's dislike of homosexuality because of many instances of the definiton of marriage, sex, and sacrifice. If there were only a couple mentionings, I might have more questions about God's stance on homosexuality. We are to be true heterosexuals, not the heterosexuals we see in the movies. Like everything else, it is not natural to be a Christian.

There are many things that were allowed long ago, but that doesn't mean that they were approved of by God, and all shall be judged in the end...both the living and the dead.
 
Buddha1 said:
Why are my arguments valid only for non-christians. Can you show me evidences from your religious books that promote heterosexuality, i.e. casual non-procreative sex between unmarried men and women?

Because non-procreative sex between a man and a woman is not true heterosexuality. The Bible promotes us to not be of this world, to not be natural; therefore, it will require effort to be a true heterosexual. And that is what I want to be. I realize now that I am not a heterosexual, nor a homosexual. I am a natural man. Thank you, you are seriously an answer to a prayer I said this morning.
 
jayleew said:
Paul's perspective is that we are to seperate only for prayer in marriage

No kidding? You mean the man will not go to work or even to the loo without his other half :D

And is he not supposed to spend time with his parents (I know parents do not mean much in a heterosexual society, wife means everything, but I hope your religion is different from your society!), or siblings or good friends --- and what about children!

What kind of men would a religion make out of its males, if it wants them to spend all of their time with women romancing them --- forgetting about everything else. In my society we call such men wimps.

Compare this with eastern religion. I remember in one of the religions there goes an ancient story that a man was madly in love with his wife. He wouldn't let go of her even for a moment. The wife got sick of him. When once she was visiting her parents house several villages away, he came to meet her in rain and storm where he almost died. She admonished him saying if he'd love god with as much devotion he would find enlighenment. Those words changed his life and he went on to became a great saint. We talk about balance in life!

jayleew said:
and not withhold ourselves from our partner, sexually.
I am sure that would not mean having sex with her day and night, as if there is nothing better to do! Surely, all these things does not point to being 'heterosexual'. You have to do your duty (duty as he percieves it ) --- that is what it says! Men in the medieval days married and fulfilled their social obligations in marriage, even when they were not sexually interested in the women. I mean that is what you want them to do today! It would surely be too much for the god to expect men to develop needs or desires he has not given them. At best he can expect them to follow his 'orders' despite their feelings telling them otherwise. For surely, you can kill a feeling/ need/ desire but you cannot create one by force.

I'm sure Paul is not God himself, he is just trying to interpret God's words! And modern man is trying to interpret Paul's words! There was no concept of heterosexualtiy in Paul's times.
 
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jayleew said:
I realize now that I am not a heterosexual, nor a homosexual. I am a natural man.
I think you are a religious man, and that's what you want to be.

jayleew said:
Thank you, you are seriously an answer to a prayer I said this morning.
Gee! :)
 
jayleew said:
Because non-procreative sex between a man and a woman is not true heterosexuality. The Bible promotes us to not be of this world, to not be natural; therefore, it will require effort to be a true heterosexual.

"Heterosexual" is a sexual identity. It identifies you socially on the basis of your sexual desires. It is about SEX, SEX, SEX. It considers your sexual desires to be your most important characteristic as a human being --- worthy enough to build an important social identity around it..

Don't go by the bookish definition of the term heterosexual --- I know you go by the book as far as religion is concerned, but for language you have to look at the practical usages too. For when people coin a term, they want the word to mean one thing, but when people actually use it, it assumes a different meaning based on real life conditions.

If you call yourself heterosexual, and a man who never marries or raises his children but has lots and lots of sex with other women (and a multiple of them!) also calls himself heterosexual, then how are you different from him? You may call yourself a true heterosexual, but the other guy too may insist he is the real heterosexual (and by dictionary as well as practical usage he is one!).

The dictionary or practical meaning of the term 'heterosexual' say nothing about man having sex with only his wife within marriage to qualify him as a heterosexual.

Also the facts that there was no concept of heterosexuality before the sexual revolution, and the earliest coinage of the word heterosexuality was as a a clinical ter to describe a pathological condition, a perversion where a man was excessively obsessed with sex with women. The real meaning of the word heterosexual is still the same today, only it has become acceptable to do that.

When you take on a heterosexual identity then you automatically make a person with no sexual need for women a 'homosexual'. Which means that then you can't expect him to do his social duty and marry a woman.

Perhaps, you want to call yourself heterosexual either that has always been your identity (much like Christianity) or perhaps that it is powerful!

Again, what does your religion say about 'heterosexual' women. Are women supposed to be heterosexual or sexual at all. Aren't 'heterosexual' women the equivalent of what bible and the ancient times described as 'prostitutes'. Women who had casual sex, without meaning to procreate with multiple men. For heterosexual women, virginity does not mean anything!

And then heterosexual men and women both use contraceptives and/or abortions, both banned by your religion, in order to enjoy sex casually without the burden of children.
 
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jayleew said:
We are to be true heterosexuals, not the heterosexuals we see in the movies.
So why don't you take up issues with the movies first. And everything else that goes on to heterosexualise the society, before you take up issues with so-called homosexuals.
 
Buddha1 said:
We still have to prove what a natural man is.



you say natural, isnt reproduction natural? yes or no.

if you answered yes then mating with the opposite sex is a must for reproduction in the wild, and as surival is every animals natural instinct we must reproduce for our species to survive (our main goal as a collective). so bieng straight is natural for our species to exist.

if you answered no, then what is your definition of the word natural, answer this and i will continue, thanks.

peace
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
you say natural, isnt reproduction natural? yes or no.

if you answered yes then mating with the opposite sex is a must for reproduction in the wild, and as surival is every animals natural instinct we must reproduce for our species to survive (our main goal as a collective).

a.) .The problem is you're so sure of your stand that you have not been listening to what I've been sayiing. This is how our societies have brainwashed our brains for so long, and the fact that we live in a highly manipulated society, that when we are shown the reality we cannot believe it.

I have already spoken about how heterosexuality is male-female casual/ romantic sex not one that is limited to procreative sex.

In very brief,
reproduction is not = heterosexuality, it does not need heterosexaul identity or a strong or permanent desire to have male-female sex or desire.

- Nature wants us to reproduce only as much as it can naturally sustain keeping its balance. That's why male sexual desire for females in the wild is limited to occasional very short period of sex, later in life, and does not involve any emotional intimacy or bonds. This is not heterosexuality.

We have discussed this issue in great detail at "there is no evidence for heterosexuality in nature". Would you care to read it first before engaging us in that debate all over again. Every person new to this issue thinks he can easily debunk what I'm saying, and then involves me in a loooong discussion all over again.....only to quietly slip out even without recognising that he stands corrected!

here's a lilnk to one such discussion (it'll take you straight to that post):
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=814143#post814143

EmptyForceOfChi said:
so bieng straight is natural for our species to exist.

(c) Heterosexuality is not 'straight'. Heterosexaulity is queer! Straight men are forced to appear heterosexual.

You should know better if you're really from a non-western society!
 
ok so how am i forced to appear heterosexual, i dont care if i do anything that seems gay or femanine, im just attracted to females not males,


and im not brainwashed, i have a very open mind, but i find it hard to actually see what your saying,

could you list very short points labeled a,b,c,d etc

a) blah blah blah is blah because blah
b) blah is blah my point is blah

etc i just wanna know exactly where you stand, no outer crust just cut straight to the center of your point please.

what is your definition of natural aswell please


peace
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
ok so how am i forced to appear heterosexual, i dont care if i do anything that seems gay or femanine, im just attracted to females not males,
and im not brainwashed, i have a very open mind, but i find it hard to actually see what your saying,

I have said earlier, and I'm saying it again......it is pointless to take up personal cases. Men have so many motives for hiding their real selves that it is pointless to talk about individual cases. Let's talk about things at the macro level.

And at the macro level, I am not saying that male-female sexual bonding desire is non-existent. It happens in transgendered males, including meterosexual males. Many meterosexual men, after centuries of social masculinity invested in them, have started to see themselves as real straights, but take away the social power and they are nothing (because they have already lost their natural femininity!)

EmptyForceOfChi said:
could you list very short points labeled a,b,c,d etc

When you are speaking from stereotypes and widely 'accepted' beliefs, it's easy to give one liners as arguments.

When you want to expose an entire system, you need to TALK.

EmptyForceOfChi said:
a) blah blah blah is blah because blah
b) blah is blah my point is blah
etc i just wanna know exactly where you stand, no outer crust just cut straight to the center of your point please.
If you are sincere about having a discussion or to get at the truth, it is imperative that you make the effort to read through my points. No pain, no gain. But if you could hardly care (and why not, even if I'm true it's not going to change this world or take away your social powers. It may only affect your conscience --- for the conscientious).

So you have to decide whether you are serious about discussing the issue and want to invest some time.

EmptyForceOfChi said:
what is your definition of natural aswell please
peace
Do I have to discuss it afresh with every new comer. I'll never get ahead than this.
In any case, my definition of natural is something that comes or happens spontaneously.

It does not need to be propped up by external forces (which is my point, if heterosexuality is natural, why does it need such extensive and intensive measures to sustain it)

My definition of 'unnatural' is something that works against nature, something that disrupts the normal flow of nature or tries to control it and harms it.

Do visit the following post:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=906546#post906546
 
Important Points on the topic "Heterosexuality is queer"

The males today that fiercely claim to be heterosexuals, despise and marginalise male sexual need for men, relate with the heterosexual identity and defend the forces of heterosexualisation are not really the true straight men. They are meterosexual men, but not the positive types. The positive meterosexual or transgendered male is both man and woman. He has the energies of both the genders.

These males are that part of the meterosexual population with an interest in women, who have been given artificial social powers on a platter for centuries – because the societies wanted to 'unnaturally' augment reproduction. They have become addicted to this power, and have started to believe they naturally deserve it. Deep down they know that in a society based on nature and without the external pressures of heterosexuality, they will not be straights. In such a society they do not have enough natural masculinity needed to compete with straight men, especially those that they have condemned today as 'homosexuals' (the fake ones!). In a natural society they will either have to live into the two-spirited and highly respected feminine male group (but they have already lost their positive femininity after living in the straight world for so long!) or live as lesser-men. Therefore, They are not going to give up this power so easily --- especially when they are going great. These males are truly those who are today neither men nor women. In contrast, transgendered, transexual and homoseual men are both men and women in a positive way..
 
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EmptyForceOfChi said:
ok so how am i forced to appear heterosexual, i dont care if i do anything that seems gay or femanine, im just attracted to females not males,

Sorry, I missed that one.....

If your above statement is true (which is likely because there is no force on men not to be feminine), then it means that you are a person who is positively both masculine and feminine. But that is not what straight in my definition is. You are closer to what today is known as meterosexuality. And to be positively meterosexual in today's world is extremely difficult and points to a strength of character --- kudos to you!.

I will not be surprised if you have a natural and positive capability to bond with women, and I bow to you. This nature of yours serves a very important biological function --- you are the link between man and woman. But I'd still say this is not heterosexuality (heterosexuality comprises a hatred for sexual desire in men even amongst others, and a hatred of femininity in males, even in oneself)

In a natural society which is divided between men-only, women-only and the two-spirited people, with equal social status, you would be more likely to be in the thrid category.

The two spirited people are the link between two totally distinct groups of male and female who only interact shortly to reproduce. While in nature males bond with male and females with the females, the two-spirited males can bond with both male and female or any one of them. Because of this in actuality the concept of sexual orientation can be used theoretically to divide only the two-spirtied males. But inspite of who they may love all two spirited males belong basically to one gender.

Unlike most hardcore heterosexual men of course, who are examples of negative meterosexuality. They have negativised their masculinity and mutilated and thrown their femininty, intoxicated by the mind blowing power invested in them by the society in its attempt to 'unnaturally' augment reproduction --- in order to sustain their growing civilisations.
 
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Heterosexuality is Queer -- a rational argument

Heterosexuality cannot exist unless the gender difference between men and women are not removed. Thus gender equality is a high aloft ideal of a heterosexual society and it gains credibility/ acceptibility by claiming to remove the injustices done to women in traditional societies (some of these injustices are real, some exaggerated and some made-up to give legitimacy to the process of heterosexualisation). Certainly Heterosexualisation doesn't bring real equality, it just makes the invisible oppression of men more intense, increases their vulnerabilty adn increases the outer and invisible social powers of women over men.

Surely, this ironing out of the differences between men and women is not possible without 'gender bending' or 'queering' extensively both men and women.
 
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Giambattista said:
I could tell that he liked me (we were both guys, and still are, HAHA), but I could also see that these false requirements for being a "man" required him to pretend that I really didn't mean all that much to him, even though I that he liked me above and beyond what would ordinarily be expected of a "man". It was as if there was some invisible eye that was watching every action of his and determining what was masculine or not, and he was performing, as it were, for that unseen eye.
I KNEW without a doubt it was a lie. But he played along with it. I wasn't the only person that noticed. Other people commented about the "show" he was putting on
.
Well, let me tell you about my experiences in a little town where I worked for some time as a young trainee, several years ago.

There were 10 young guys in that office in all, between the ages 19 and 22. There were five older men (in the latter part of their youth) – all married. There were app. 20 young girls in that office. Most of my interaction was with the young guys (and somewhat with the girls), and I used to talk about masculinity, and sexual bonds between men was only a part of the issues I raised. 6 out of the 9 other guys working there made discreet advances towards me --- just like the one you've described --- including the most macho guy of the town (who had developed a strong attachment with me), thinking I may be open to such bonds.

I had a fight with two of the remaining young guys early on --- I did not have much interaction with one of them afterwards. The other kept being a pain in the neck.

The last guy was different. He tried to put me down --- you know they are in every group --- the sissies who cry 'gay', 'gay', whenever someone tries to raise such issues or violate the 'heteroseuxality' of the air. I dealt with him in a typical macho style and he never dared to meddle with me again. He did not have enough powers (that hang in the heterosexual air!) that such males in heterosexual societies enjoy.

What is significant is that he was the softest guy in the pack, bordering on effeminate --- even when he was hairy and kept a moustache.

It was amusing to see the other guys talking shit about him behind his back --- calling him a 'eunuch' in the local language --- which is an abuse thousand times worse than 'fag' --- reason, he spent most of his time in the girls group (although he had a reason --- he was terribly in love with one of the girls!)

I was never any different from the rest of the straight guys --- and never been treated differently. I was one of them. No one ever called me gay. Althoough once or twice they used the term homo-sex, but that was not in a sense of an identity, it was something that any boy was capable of enjoying (although it's still stigmatised!)

Being in a western or a heterosexualised space in my own country angers me a lot, because they force me either to take the heterosexual identity or be tell that I'm different as a 'bisexual' or even 'gay' man. It all seems so unnatural to me --- and so disempowering! Apparently, the rest of the guys would feel the same disempowerment in a heterosexual set up and to deal with it they will then be forced to take on a heterosexual identity. The heterosexualisation has such a 'scaring' psychological effect they will need to continuously distance themselves from 'gay' men in order to save their teeth. The only difference between them and me is that I have decided to take on the heterosexual society, because I have knowledge, and the courage which comes with it --- and the fact that I can see heterosexual society for what it is --- a disaster for men.

Coming back to my experiences, one of the guys that I had a fight with (the one which was a pain in the neck --- that he never used my talking about sexual bonds between men as my vulnerability or to settle scores with me says a lot about the difference between my society and yours), he was late to realise that thing about male-male bonds, and when he did he became extremely friendly and one day wanted to invite me over to his house for a beer, and said I could sleep over (I turned down his offer!). He gave me such a different hug at office that I knew what was going on.

And still I was never different from the rest of the guys. It was the one who spent his time with the girls that was different.

The suppressed desires of men that became visible to me after they trusted me with its silent expression represent the true nature of men all over the world. Men are intrinsicly the same everywhere. It's the social pressures that force them to be heterosexuals in the west (though as there are enough evidences, behind the heterosexual mask they are still the same……as also your experiences show)

The other guy I'd a fight with had left the organisation, so I didn't really know about him. I did not have much interaction with the older guys, but two of the five men married men made suppressed advances, one of them too crudely.

All this while the organisation I worked for continued to quietly heterosexualise the society in the disguise of working on women's rights --- they were openly anti-men (the organisation worked on women's gender issues with US money). Most people --- boys and girls worked with them not because they agreed with what they were doing (they often disagreed, especially the boys, but because our country has a huge unemployment problem and they need jobs!) The 'owner' of the organsation was a man who called himself a 'heterosexual' and was western educated.

This experience made me analyse my earier experiences in life --- and then I could understand a lot of things about straight men that I had previously not really thought about (like all of us) – even though they were inconsistent with what we are told about male sexual behaviour. Such experiences were repeated year after year as I continued to work on these issues.
 
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Giambattista said:
I don't believe, no matter what anyone reading this thread has deduced, that every man has these hidden feelings for other guys. I can't and I won't ever say such things. I think there is a certain percentage of guys that, despite them calling themselves "straight", and despite the false expectations of modern society defining them as such, they are definitely not all that straight.

It's easy to deduce that when you live in such a hostile society to male-male bonds such as yours. More so, because even general male bonding is a rarity in your country, and is done only partly and superficialy by real straight guys (a group you did not have access to as an insider!). And there are very few male-only spaces. Male-only spaces even in heterosexual societies tend to be a lot easier on guys.

It's also easy to deduce that when you are 'gay', true heterosexual or a woman. Because none of the above three groups really know the issues behind social masculinity and what it means to men. They think its just a vanity!

But my experiences above may force you to expand your horizons and think beyond what you can see. I will prove --- at a macro level that straight men indeed --- who are a majority, all of them by nature have a strong sexual need for men which is stronger than that for females. But it will take some time.
 
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Buddha1 said:
Being in a western or a heterosexualised space in my own country angers me a lot, because they force me either to take the heterosexual identity or be tell that I'm different as a 'bisexual' or even 'gay' man. It all seems so unnatural to me --- and so disempowering! Apparently, the rest of the guys would feel the same disempowerment in a heterosexual set up and to deal with it they will then be forced to take on a heterosexual identity. The heterosexualisation has such a 'scaring' psychological effect they will need to continuously distance themselves from 'gay' men in order to save their teeth. The only difference between them and me is that I have decided to take on the heterosexual society, because I have knowledge, and the courage which comes with it --- and the fact that I can see heterosexual society for what it is --- a disaster for men.
It's the same unnatural feeling on this board. This isolation process helps the vested interests of heteroseualisation effectively sideline the issues that they don't want to deal with. Tru homosexual men on the other hand jump at the opportunity of getting a separate identity (because it takes care of their gender needs as well as sexual needs), and this identity brings them political power too (as minorities).
 
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