First things first, I'm not a christian and i'm not trying to bash christian beliefs (although I may accidently do so). Christiantiy is a big, strong religon, I'm sure it can stand up to a little discussion. What i'm saying is, is anyone really good enough to go to heaven or really bad enough to go to hell? I mean, what can people do that means their soul will suffer eternally? Yeah, i know about some people who have done terrible things (eg. hitler), but ETERNAL DAMNATION is a huge thing for about 60 years of being alive and doing bad things. Personally, i don't know what happens whne we die, reincarnation sounds good, or becoming part of the infinite universe. BVut one thing's for sure, if I die and the christians are right, I would not be worshipping any god who condems people to eternal bliss or pain according to about 60 -80 years of living. And anyway, is anyone really good enough to desrve eternal bliss? Why is tehre no middle ground? Personally, I think it's pretty unethical to condemn people to heaveb or hell. I havern't expressed this very well, it's far clearer in my mind, but it's hard to put into words. Maybe I'll try to explain what i'm saying again later.
heaven and hell? it means forvever.
- Thread starter daydream_believer
- Start date
Well, your entire post can be summed up in "Why would you want to believe in a religion that punishes or rewards you, for the rest of existence, on 60 to 80 years of life. Why is that a proving ground for eternity".
I suggest you go down to your local church and interview the pastor, and ask questions such as these, to get a devote christians opinion. I don't think anyone on sciforums could match piety with a true priest. Or a bishop for that matter. Anyways, ask them questions like this, I'd be interested in the results.
As for my opinion, that is retarded, why would ANYONE in their right mind accept this as truth? If anything, heaven and hell should be like prison, you server your time, then your shit back onto earth for another term, recycling of souls.
I suggest you go down to your local church and interview the pastor, and ask questions such as these, to get a devote christians opinion. I don't think anyone on sciforums could match piety with a true priest. Or a bishop for that matter. Anyways, ask them questions like this, I'd be interested in the results.
As for my opinion, that is retarded, why would ANYONE in their right mind accept this as truth? If anything, heaven and hell should be like prison, you server your time, then your shit back onto earth for another term, recycling of souls.
Catholics believe in purgatory where people will be purged of their sin. In the end though, there will be no middle ground. One of the problems that I see is your perception of time. Why is 80 years short? Also if someone chooses to sin against their concience then that is their choice not to be with God. The goal of chrisitans is to recieve eternal life throughout life. Otherwise we are dead to sin.
Time itself has nothing to do with this. You can break up one second of time into infinitely small slices. Those in hell have rejected God and so he is giving them what they have chosen. If you are living in sin and continue then all God is doing is exposing your choice. People who do not believe in God should at least repent of their faults to the possibility of God and call out to him. It is well within the power of God to give little signs of his existance. It is written, "The Lord will give you the bread you need and the water for which you thirst. No longer will your Teacher hide himself, but with your own eyes you shall see your Teacher, While from behind, a voice shall sound in your ears: 'This is the way; walk in it,' when you would turn to the right or to the left." So keep calling out to him every day and doing good. And if you die, then it is also written that no one who calls out Jesus' name is put to shame.
The young Christian's POV
Ok where are all the Christians standing up for what they believe in?
Anyway I hope I can answer your question. The thing is I am a very young Christian (Just over a year old in Christ) so I still have the fundamentals at the front of my mind. How it works is, God is perfect, right? Yeah we might not understand him, but in the end, He's always right. If you except that as truth than you may be able to see why something imperfect could never live in the house of God (and essentially that is what Heaven is). You were right to say that no one is good enough to get into heaven. That's where Jesus comes in. In his love for us, He sees that the only way we will ever make it is with a huge sacrifice on His part. So He comes to Earth. He is tested and tempted just like we are. In the end He is murdered after living the only perfect, sinless life. But He didn't just do this to live and see what we went through (that was a nice added bonus). He actually took the Wrath of God that we deserve. When He died, Gods wrath poured out on the sinless savior. So when we except that He has done this for us, our sins in the eyes of God are washed away. Our debt has been paid in full. When we die and stand in front of God, as everyone will, we will be accused by Satan. He has been making a HUGE list of everything we have ever done wrong and he will read it to God accusing us of all of our sins. But if we have excepted Christ as our Lord and savior he will intercede for us. He will turn to the Father and say, "No Father don't send them away. They are my friend and my servant. I died for THEM Father let them live with US." And He will. So that's the salvation story.
Now to address Hell. Now most of this is speculation because, other than saying it's a fiery pit of perpetual despair, God doesn't go into too much detail. The way I see it, when those who have not excepted the sacrifice of Christ get to God they wont have anything to show, but the long list of sins Satan has been recording. Now what I think happens is that God judges accordingly. If someone lived what we would call a "good life" and only did the "little sins" they are still imperfect and can never live with God, but just maybe they will get a lesser punishment that say Hitler. The thing is once you're dead and facing God, the facade and the walls are all gone, the true desires of your heart are finally open to come out, and those people will see the face of God for the first and last time and will always grieve for the relationship they lost with their creator. Of corse this is speculation. What I do know for sure is that Hell does exist and it will not be fun. No one can make it on their own strength and no one can earn a ticket in, for only the perfect may enter the house of God. OOO I feel all tingly. Joking aside, It's truth take it to heart.
Bursting with Love,
Mystee
Ok where are all the Christians standing up for what they believe in?
Anyway I hope I can answer your question. The thing is I am a very young Christian (Just over a year old in Christ) so I still have the fundamentals at the front of my mind. How it works is, God is perfect, right? Yeah we might not understand him, but in the end, He's always right. If you except that as truth than you may be able to see why something imperfect could never live in the house of God (and essentially that is what Heaven is). You were right to say that no one is good enough to get into heaven. That's where Jesus comes in. In his love for us, He sees that the only way we will ever make it is with a huge sacrifice on His part. So He comes to Earth. He is tested and tempted just like we are. In the end He is murdered after living the only perfect, sinless life. But He didn't just do this to live and see what we went through (that was a nice added bonus). He actually took the Wrath of God that we deserve. When He died, Gods wrath poured out on the sinless savior. So when we except that He has done this for us, our sins in the eyes of God are washed away. Our debt has been paid in full. When we die and stand in front of God, as everyone will, we will be accused by Satan. He has been making a HUGE list of everything we have ever done wrong and he will read it to God accusing us of all of our sins. But if we have excepted Christ as our Lord and savior he will intercede for us. He will turn to the Father and say, "No Father don't send them away. They are my friend and my servant. I died for THEM Father let them live with US." And He will. So that's the salvation story.
Now to address Hell. Now most of this is speculation because, other than saying it's a fiery pit of perpetual despair, God doesn't go into too much detail. The way I see it, when those who have not excepted the sacrifice of Christ get to God they wont have anything to show, but the long list of sins Satan has been recording. Now what I think happens is that God judges accordingly. If someone lived what we would call a "good life" and only did the "little sins" they are still imperfect and can never live with God, but just maybe they will get a lesser punishment that say Hitler. The thing is once you're dead and facing God, the facade and the walls are all gone, the true desires of your heart are finally open to come out, and those people will see the face of God for the first and last time and will always grieve for the relationship they lost with their creator. Of corse this is speculation. What I do know for sure is that Hell does exist and it will not be fun. No one can make it on their own strength and no one can earn a ticket in, for only the perfect may enter the house of God. OOO I feel all tingly. Joking aside, It's truth take it to heart.
Bursting with Love,
Mystee
I agree that we have to accept Jesus and believe Jesus to be in heaven, I think my nature of this is different than yours. Anyone who does true good must do good through God and there by does good through Jesus who is within them. There is no other way to do good. Yet Moses, Elijah and Isaiah did very good without knowing the name Jesus or that he was going to die for him. A buddhist might serve the poor and feel Jesus within their heart and may come to know Jesus without calling him Jesus. Yet other religionsy do not know completely the Master's will. In Luke, Jesus says "and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more." I don't think that hell is a light beating.
I don't generally like to think of hell as a punishment rather a consequence of your actions. My belief is not that hell is a place where you will be tortured for eternity or thrown into a lake of fire, I generally see hell like this. At judgment we will be as god intended us to be it direct connection with him perfect as it were, but if you have lived a life were you have rejected Jesus Christ and thereby died to sin this will be ripped away and for eternity you must live unfulfilled knowing what god had intended for you there by living eternally with sorrow, regret and anger.
You act like god needs justification. Also god can't stand sin he cant be in the presence of sin. How then could one who has died to sin expect to go to heaven if heaven is merely living how god intended us to be, in his presence, having direct connection with him for all eternity.
You act like god needs justification. Also god can't stand sin he cant be in the presence of sin. How then could one who has died to sin expect to go to heaven if heaven is merely living how god intended us to be, in his presence, having direct connection with him for all eternity.
Agent Smith
Registered Senior Member
Hell is ....what we cant imagine. We have never seen hell nor experienced on earth, we only know that its great pain and suffering "weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth". It is a place prepared for Satan and those who rejected God. God is perfect. Since we are merely humans, we cant comprehend or even shouldnt question God's actions. It is known, that if you dont follow God's commmandents and etc. You wont be eternally happy. God gives us free will, you dont have to live according to his commmandents, but if you dont then it is written you wil be punished.
You all say the same thing, just in fluffier paragraphs, I think you miss the point of the question, that or I'm not christian enough to beleive you. Anyways, what I get out of your paragraphs, is, "Believe in the christian god or else. Accept Christ or your screwed. If you make the mistake of not doing so in your extremely small amount of time, in comparisson with eternity, theres no going back, your damned forever". And I say, wtf? If God truly cared for us, or Christ, whoever has the final say, wouldn't they allow us, in the eternity to follow, that our eternal souls should have a second chance? Christianity would be easier to fall for if hell was like a prison. You live a sinful life, you go to hell for 100 years, your soul gets another chance at life, maybe this time it gets sucked into christianity, believes in christs sacrifice, and *pop* it's in heaven. This eternal damnation stuff worked to scare people in the middle ages, it doesn't now. I'd rather believe in Allah at this point and suicide bomb a busload of western evil doers, and go to paradise, then believe in god and do something that, on some obscure reference, throws me in hell for the rest of my existence.
irritatingly controversial
okay, i know this question is irritatingly controversial, but.....what is sin? what counts as sin? what actions are bad enough to condemn us to eternal suffering? if the bible is right and the christians are right then i'm damned to hell. That's why i'm not a christian. In christian eyes, i'm sinnin g al the time, in other points of view, and other religons, i'm an okay person. But i don't believe in the christian god and i'm a lesbian so I have to go to hell. But I don't think that's fair.
okay, i know this question is irritatingly controversial, but.....what is sin? what counts as sin? what actions are bad enough to condemn us to eternal suffering? if the bible is right and the christians are right then i'm damned to hell. That's why i'm not a christian. In christian eyes, i'm sinnin g al the time, in other points of view, and other religons, i'm an okay person. But i don't believe in the christian god and i'm a lesbian so I have to go to hell. But I don't think that's fair.
That is an interesting question, but it's not really important for the discussion in this thread. The question in the air is why such a short span of time should either reward, or condemn you for eternity. Pretty much, you believe in christ, you get in, you don't, your going to hell. I think a more important question is "Can I sin in my life but embrace christ and still get in?", or "What if i killed 50 people, and spent the rest of my life embracing christ, will I be forgiven?" Those are worse in my opinion, because all the devotes are saying "you can be cleansed of your sin, and get in and party with us", well, whats the limit on the sins that will be forgiven? The bible mentions none.
Let's put it this way to make it clearer:
80 years is a lot longer than eternity.
(*lots of objections, screaming and shouting...*)
Eternity is outside time. It's a big boolean 1. There are 80 eternities in 80 years of life on earth: 29120 days, 698,880 hours, every second is a chance to choose and change. On the other hand, what does the word 'eternity' really mean to you at this moment? Nothing! As a matter of fact, you can relate more to the last three seconds than you can to "eternity". Your life at this moment is infinitely more valuable, actual and meaningful if I can put it that way. You can only imagine the relative worth of "eternity". Yet exactly this relativity makes your current life and your current choices that much more significant.
Death is 0. We are all entropying our merry way towards 0. You'll see it everywhere around you - Everything is dying. This degeneration is also true spiritually. All pits are at the bottom of a long slide, and hell is no different, it just happens to be the bottom-most pit, and filled with spiritual fire (remember, it was created for the devil and his minions, so it has to be able to hold them)
How do we not die - metaphorically, spiritually and everything "death" might mean? By being rescued.
All of you raise a few complaints. I'll try to summarize some:
1.Now we can all sin happily, and in the end just call on Christ and we go to heaven I can't even begin to show everything that's wrong with this statemtent, but I'll try...
80 years is a lot longer than eternity.
(*lots of objections, screaming and shouting...*)
Eternity is outside time. It's a big boolean 1. There are 80 eternities in 80 years of life on earth: 29120 days, 698,880 hours, every second is a chance to choose and change. On the other hand, what does the word 'eternity' really mean to you at this moment? Nothing! As a matter of fact, you can relate more to the last three seconds than you can to "eternity". Your life at this moment is infinitely more valuable, actual and meaningful if I can put it that way. You can only imagine the relative worth of "eternity". Yet exactly this relativity makes your current life and your current choices that much more significant.
Death is 0. We are all entropying our merry way towards 0. You'll see it everywhere around you - Everything is dying. This degeneration is also true spiritually. All pits are at the bottom of a long slide, and hell is no different, it just happens to be the bottom-most pit, and filled with spiritual fire (remember, it was created for the devil and his minions, so it has to be able to hold them)
How do we not die - metaphorically, spiritually and everything "death" might mean? By being rescued.
All of you raise a few complaints. I'll try to summarize some:
1.Now we can all sin happily, and in the end just call on Christ and we go to heaven I can't even begin to show everything that's wrong with this statemtent, but I'll try...
- You assume God just ignores your hypocrisy
- You disrespect Jesus as just a dumb veto card;
- This is where Matthew 7:21 comes in:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. - You don't read the Bible, or you do and ignore it completely;
- et cetera ad infinitum! But it boils down to not being a Christian in the sense that you ever took Jesus seriously.
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2.No sin justifies eternal suffering I guess I have to define sin first: simply put, it is disobedience to God. Why should we obey, just because He wants us to? you ask. This is where the pot rebels against the potter. God created you;- You owe your life - your very existence - to Him one way or another. He is your spiritual Father,
- Once you accepted His love, it's not hard to love Him back... Actually, it's really easy;
- Eternity is just a big 1. To scream "injustice" means you ignore/deny every moment of your whole existence on earth
- the "suffering" is probably just because you can't get out. You won't be able to die anymore, so how bad could it be?
- All sin is of the same nature: disobedience, denial of God. If this is the criteria of not being with God, you won't be with God
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3.Why only Christ? There shouldn't be only one option! Consider for a moment that there is only one God. There is only one death. There is only one "rescuer", because if more than once was necessary, the first time could hardly count as a genuine rescue can it?- God does not want us to suffer for eternity
- He does not want us to follow the wrong god home, because if he ends up not existing, you would have just followed the natural slide down to hell, after the Deceiver, the Accuser and the antichrist, while under the lie of an illusion
- So He provides us with a Saviour, who comes from Him alone, who has the authority to judge our sins and therefore to promise redemption and grant mercy. How much mercy does a person need once he's forgiven? You can only be forgiven once, because once again: if more was necessary the first time wouldn't have held much validity.
- Unfortunately, since God is a reality, He must exist. Consider the existence of something: It is summarized by a "personality" - a set of parameters that defines the "being" - described by a Name. In this case, there is only one God who ever called Himself "I am", and only one Saviour who ever promised salvation with any credibility. If this feels limiting or claustrophobic to you: be honest with yourself. It is probably not so much that you want God to be scientifical, but more because you don't want to believe in a god in the first place. That is a choice, again: 0 or 1
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Fafnir,
There is no limit to sins that can be forgiven. The only limit is your own sincerity.
daydream_believer,
You are no more or less a sinner than "thieves or the greedy or drunkards or slanderers or swindlers" (1 Cor. 6). If you are behaving immorally, you are not doing what's right. The rub is this: do you really believe you could be found guilty of sin? If you do not, you may can also not realize that your sins are forgiven. The fact is nobody like being made to feel guilty. The problem is nothing can be forgiven if guilt is not realized. This is equally true for all sins.
To all,
Any Christian or church that condemns you to hell are taking over the role as judge, and there is only one Judge. God specifically does not want anybody to go to hell, and that is why He provided a way out: 1)believe in Him 2)believe in His way out 3)Do what He asks, and you will have eternal life.
The good news about Jesus is that you can start getting to know him even before you are sure about his Father. He will gain credibility as you start following him... his credibility will increase as your trust in Him increases, and before you know it, you won't be able to deny that his testimony about God either.
Jesus did not tell the story of the prodigal son for no reason:
Luke 15:21
"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
But because the son came back, he was given better treatment than the son who always remained true.
It is an outright lie that God condemns you to hell for any reason. That someone ends up there who doesn't accept Him is not his fault. It is also an outright lie that He does nothing about suffering and injustice. He did provide a way; a way to know Him, a way to be righteous, and a way away from suffering. But the truth is: nobody accepts Him.
John 8:23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
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Why would a powerful being want to create an eternal mess of heaven and hell? Why would him wasting time and energy on something that's insignifican like human beings. When would be the judgement day? 1000 years later? 1 million years later? At the end, it's still a waste of time and energy. How does having trillions and trillions of souls in heaven and hell make the being feel powerful? Why would him create all these mess just to have something to worship him forever? And who can prevent the souls in heaven from rebelling? After all, they still have free will, or don't they?
A little more detail
Ok here's a little more detail on the whole salvation thing. The reason Jesus could pay for our sins is because he died for them, but not only that. He was also resurected to new life. So how we can come into this salvation is by excepting that Jesus already died for our sinful life. So because he died as if he were us we can live as if we are him. (Don't take that out of context I'm not saying we will all walk on water). The thing is, Jesus took our sinnful lives on his shoulder and in turn offered us his perfect sinnless life. Again this is how we can get into heavin. Right when we make that dicision to except Christ's sacrifice God sees the change. He sees us as his son and as perfect. That is why he cares. In God's eyes we are perfect, and we are not only his creation but his children too. Our job for the rest of our time on Earth is to try to live up to that image. A Christian who has truly excpeted Jesus' sacrific WANTS to be everything God wants. They have died to sin with Christ and been resurected to new life along with him. That is where the still living in sin hypocritical thing goes out the door because a sincere believer will turn from than.
To attemt to answer this...
And who can prevent the souls in heavin from rebelling? After all they still have free will, or don't they
We have been told that when we get to heavin it all changes. Christ is made complete in us and sin no longer hounds us. The souls in heavin are those of sincere believers. The ones who strived to be like Christ on Earth. The difference is Earth is imperfect and so it is impossible to be truly Christ-like untill we are in heavin and away from sin and temptation. The souls in heavin don't want to rebel. They are in the presence of their Father; who wouldn't want that?
Lot's of Love,
Mystee
Ok here's a little more detail on the whole salvation thing. The reason Jesus could pay for our sins is because he died for them, but not only that. He was also resurected to new life. So how we can come into this salvation is by excepting that Jesus already died for our sinful life. So because he died as if he were us we can live as if we are him. (Don't take that out of context I'm not saying we will all walk on water). The thing is, Jesus took our sinnful lives on his shoulder and in turn offered us his perfect sinnless life. Again this is how we can get into heavin. Right when we make that dicision to except Christ's sacrifice God sees the change. He sees us as his son and as perfect. That is why he cares. In God's eyes we are perfect, and we are not only his creation but his children too. Our job for the rest of our time on Earth is to try to live up to that image. A Christian who has truly excpeted Jesus' sacrific WANTS to be everything God wants. They have died to sin with Christ and been resurected to new life along with him. That is where the still living in sin hypocritical thing goes out the door because a sincere believer will turn from than.
To attemt to answer this...
And who can prevent the souls in heavin from rebelling? After all they still have free will, or don't they
We have been told that when we get to heavin it all changes. Christ is made complete in us and sin no longer hounds us. The souls in heavin are those of sincere believers. The ones who strived to be like Christ on Earth. The difference is Earth is imperfect and so it is impossible to be truly Christ-like untill we are in heavin and away from sin and temptation. The souls in heavin don't want to rebel. They are in the presence of their Father; who wouldn't want that?
Lot's of Love,
Mystee
R
Redoubtable
Guest
-
I don't owe the Lord Jack Shit. He screwed me over royally when He put me on this doleful pile of human suffrin' and ordure. He's a big, boorish, irresonsiple, petulant, macrocosmic jerk, and I revile the very syllables which describe Him.
If God wants to do me any favors, He can start by naming me as His immediate successor.
About this "eternity in one" concept . . . I will quote an estimable and ancient source of wisdom:
"What a Maroon!"
-BugsBunny
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You blame God for creating you because you don't want to see suffering? If you want God's comment on this, know that Jesus suffered with us. God subjected Jesus to the same world we live in - this shows that He understands our position and has provided hope that suffering will end. Is it because you don't have this hope that you reject God, or is it because of your disillusionment with life?
Re: A little more detail
What you are saying is god could make people have free will without evil/sin exists. Then why didn't he make that at the beginning to avoid all the mess? Unless you are saying people lose free will once they reach the heaven.