Have you ever met Muslim...
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
I cannot really say for sure because I never ask people what religion they are whenever I am talking with them about anything.
Differently, yes. But it's always been in a very comfortable, joking, though very un-PC sort of way.
After hockey games my father and I use to go to a Lebanese restaurant not far from my home. One year I was selected to play on the Canadian Jew team (beforehand I had no idea such a team existed) in a tournament against a few fourth-tier hockey countries (Israel, Egypt, Uzbekistan...). We won and it was in the local newspaper complete with picture. A few days later I had another game with some other team and when I walked in to the Lebanese place the owner - a very friendly man - held up the picture and just said "Jew?" We laughed, made a few jokes, and that was that. Afterward, every time I came in there he would make some joke about Jews or Israelis and I would make some joke about Moslems.
I've had the same relationship here with the local Moslems and one Syrian Moslem who use to live in my town. The Syrian use to refer to me as "sewer rat Jew" and I would come up with just as insulting names for him. To be honest, it's not something I would be comfortable starting, but once it gets going I have no problem keeping up. The Lebanese man always had jokes in good humour and I would never have called it insulting (though he was no big fan of Israel and loved to make me defend the country), but the Syrian I often wondered if he was a bit genuine about the sewer rat part. His jokes often went a bit over the line, even by my tastes.
Other than that, nothing personal that I can think of. Of course, I grew up in a fairly white-bread area of town. Though my university had a very active Palestinian Rights group and matters often got heated and racist comments were surprisingly common coming from both sides.
Note: Most Moslems who speak a Western language (French, Italian, English...) don't need me to tell them I'm a Jew (I don't. If asked I say I'm an atheist.)... my last name is "Cohen" and most people can figure that one out pretty quickly.
After hockey games my father and I use to go to a Lebanese restaurant not far from my home. One year I was selected to play on the Canadian Jew team (beforehand I had no idea such a team existed) in a tournament against a few fourth-tier hockey countries (Israel, Egypt, Uzbekistan...). We won and it was in the local newspaper complete with picture. A few days later I had another game with some other team and when I walked in to the Lebanese place the owner - a very friendly man - held up the picture and just said "Jew?" We laughed, made a few jokes, and that was that. Afterward, every time I came in there he would make some joke about Jews or Israelis and I would make some joke about Moslems.
I've had the same relationship here with the local Moslems and one Syrian Moslem who use to live in my town. The Syrian use to refer to me as "sewer rat Jew" and I would come up with just as insulting names for him. To be honest, it's not something I would be comfortable starting, but once it gets going I have no problem keeping up. The Lebanese man always had jokes in good humour and I would never have called it insulting (though he was no big fan of Israel and loved to make me defend the country), but the Syrian I often wondered if he was a bit genuine about the sewer rat part. His jokes often went a bit over the line, even by my tastes.
Other than that, nothing personal that I can think of. Of course, I grew up in a fairly white-bread area of town. Though my university had a very active Palestinian Rights group and matters often got heated and racist comments were surprisingly common coming from both sides.
Note: Most Moslems who speak a Western language (French, Italian, English...) don't need me to tell them I'm a Jew (I don't. If asked I say I'm an atheist.)... my last name is "Cohen" and most people can figure that one out pretty quickly.
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
With words.
The Lebanese man and I were really just having a friendly joke.
The Syrian I didn't need to ask, he would rant about it at great length. He more or less spouted the typical stereotypes; rich, socialist or nazi (funny how jews always seem to be one or the other in people's minds), clever in a shrewd sort of way, completely uncaring about any goy, heartless in the holy land, arrogant, self-righteous, physically weak, scheming...
Though he seemed to think weighing each bad stereotype with a relatively good one was fair. Things like "you should never trust a jew doctor with a goy's life. They will let the goy die in a heartbeat if a jew patient with a broken fingernail walks in! But, I'll tell you what... you can do my tax returns... I'm sure you'll do the best job possible." Uhh, I'm really not an accountant. "it's in your blood, boy!"
He was actually kind of a nice guy in some ways. I think he just came from an old-world mentality and hadn't been able to shake that off. I tried not to hold it against him, the same way I don't blame my grandmother for being scared of "darks". It's just a different time/place that they came from and I can't be too harsh.
All that said, he did actually say he'd love to take me to Syria. His opinion was that too few Jews came to Moslem lands. (He felt this was the fault of terrified - weak - Jews, as well the fault of unwelcoming Moslem countries.) Though he said he wouldn't take me to his hometown unless I got the name on my passport changed to some different spelling - Coen or Cohn or something that could theoretically be Christian - and then wore a cross. He said there was a fair chance a police officer would stop and ask for your papers and an obviously jewish name would not be well received by at least a few people in his neighborhood, and, he feared, possibly even by the police.
The Syrian I didn't need to ask, he would rant about it at great length. He more or less spouted the typical stereotypes; rich, socialist or nazi (funny how jews always seem to be one or the other in people's minds), clever in a shrewd sort of way, completely uncaring about any goy, heartless in the holy land, arrogant, self-righteous, physically weak, scheming...
Though he seemed to think weighing each bad stereotype with a relatively good one was fair. Things like "you should never trust a jew doctor with a goy's life. They will let the goy die in a heartbeat if a jew patient with a broken fingernail walks in! But, I'll tell you what... you can do my tax returns... I'm sure you'll do the best job possible." Uhh, I'm really not an accountant. "it's in your blood, boy!"
He was actually kind of a nice guy in some ways. I think he just came from an old-world mentality and hadn't been able to shake that off. I tried not to hold it against him, the same way I don't blame my grandmother for being scared of "darks". It's just a different time/place that they came from and I can't be too harsh.
All that said, he did actually say he'd love to take me to Syria. His opinion was that too few Jews came to Moslem lands. (He felt this was the fault of terrified - weak - Jews, as well the fault of unwelcoming Moslem countries.) Though he said he wouldn't take me to his hometown unless I got the name on my passport changed to some different spelling - Coen or Cohn or something that could theoretically be Christian - and then wore a cross. He said there was a fair chance a police officer would stop and ask for your papers and an obviously jewish name would not be well received by at least a few people in his neighborhood, and, he feared, possibly even by the police.
So syria is hostile to Jews? That's news to me. You seem to think it is acceptable old world mentality to think badly of Jews. But I did not come across this attitude in Saudis, although I noted that moroccans and tunisians were suspicious of jews (on top of which we had an unfortunate incident when a Jewish storekeeper called the cops on us, giving rise to a rant on the perfidy of Jews).
To be honest, I would never frequent a place I was treated like that in. So why do you participate in it? And do you think interracting with you created any changes in their attitude?
Plus if they have so many negative opinions about Jews in general, why do they even serve you?
To be honest, I would never frequent a place I was treated like that in. So why do you participate in it? And do you think interracting with you created any changes in their attitude?
Plus if they have so many negative opinions about Jews in general, why do they even serve you?
Well, for starters the guy wasn't the bartender. He was just another patron at the only English-speaking bar in town. (Incidentally, he'd been living in China for 5 years and spoke the language quite well, though he couldn't read or write. When the racist jokes started flowing he would often switch to speaking in Chinese and note that I may be a sewer rat, but I was still capable of learning the language faster than any of the goyim.)
I doubt all of Syria is hostile to Jews. He said not far from his own area was a Jewish neighborhood. The attitude, as he described it, was "they don't bother us, we don't bother them." Kind of like the Jew-Russian relations before 1917 or so.
I don't think it's acceptable. I just think there's no benefit to judging it so harshly when you're face to face with it. My grandmother is racist and will be for whatever years she has left on the planet. There's no way to change her and half of it is due to senility.
I participated because there was really no other choice. I either needed to start a fight that would go nowhere, ignore him completely or just roll with the punches. Frankly, he was the only person I knew in this town who understand middle eastern politics (duh) and I loved to chat about it with him. Living in a town where no one follows the news, you're happy to converse with anyone about intricate details, even if it's an enemy.
I don't think knowing me changed his attitude very much. Not in any way I could see, at least. In fact, I've come to resent the fact in a slight way that for most people I here I typify the stereotype rather than show them it's not true. I have spent 2-6 hours a day studying every day since I came to China and I do speak/read/write the language quite well. I am a very quick read and study and love learning, with all my heart. I've also been involved in a number of the negotiations done by my school with other companies (it's good to have a white person who speaks Chinese at any function in China - watch their TV specials and you'll see). So the locals feel their presumptions have been reinforced: I like studying, I learn quickly and I've done well in business.
I doubt all of Syria is hostile to Jews. He said not far from his own area was a Jewish neighborhood. The attitude, as he described it, was "they don't bother us, we don't bother them." Kind of like the Jew-Russian relations before 1917 or so.
I don't think it's acceptable. I just think there's no benefit to judging it so harshly when you're face to face with it. My grandmother is racist and will be for whatever years she has left on the planet. There's no way to change her and half of it is due to senility.
I participated because there was really no other choice. I either needed to start a fight that would go nowhere, ignore him completely or just roll with the punches. Frankly, he was the only person I knew in this town who understand middle eastern politics (duh) and I loved to chat about it with him. Living in a town where no one follows the news, you're happy to converse with anyone about intricate details, even if it's an enemy.
I don't think knowing me changed his attitude very much. Not in any way I could see, at least. In fact, I've come to resent the fact in a slight way that for most people I here I typify the stereotype rather than show them it's not true. I have spent 2-6 hours a day studying every day since I came to China and I do speak/read/write the language quite well. I am a very quick read and study and love learning, with all my heart. I've also been involved in a number of the negotiations done by my school with other companies (it's good to have a white person who speaks Chinese at any function in China - watch their TV specials and you'll see). So the locals feel their presumptions have been reinforced: I like studying, I learn quickly and I've done well in business.
I've lived a good chunk of my life in apartment complexes, and I met a lot of Muslim families in those places. For the most part, they were great people. Just lovely, friendly, people, no different than anyone else.
I have met some shady Muslims, of course. But I've met shady Catholics and Jews, too.
Personally, I find the born-again Christian to be the worst kind of person. They always seem, in my experience, anyway, to be very self-righteous and judgmental.
Anyway, SAM, I don't think anyone thinks the average Muslim is any different than anyone of any other faith. People have a problem with Muslim fringe groups more than anything.
I have met some shady Muslims, of course. But I've met shady Catholics and Jews, too.
Personally, I find the born-again Christian to be the worst kind of person. They always seem, in my experience, anyway, to be very self-righteous and judgmental.
Anyway, SAM, I don't think anyone thinks the average Muslim is any different than anyone of any other faith. People have a problem with Muslim fringe groups more than anything.
Nope. Just crazy Evangelical Christians, but I know they are a minority, so I don't let it affect my opinion of Christians in general. Most people are nice, I think.
Very self righteous and judgmental of you.
Really? We were asked a question, and I described my experiences. And in my experience, the born-agains I've met have been very self-righteous and judgmental. What's wrong with saying that? You want me to lie and say that every Christian fundie I've met was great?
Considering both of us were seven years old at the time, no.
You should tell her.
I thought about it, but it doesn't matter to me. We don't talk about religion much because she doesn't know anything. She just does what she's supposed to. When I ask questions, she tells me to ask her husband. He was raised Muslim, she wasn't.