Has Monotheism Really Changed Anything?

Regardless of numbers is there not the tendencey to think your god is better than their god therefore causing conflict?

Abandon gods and the situation seems little different- disagreement about which particular system - morals, econiomics, politics - is better than another.

In that sense I don't think monotheism has changed much.

Perhaps we would be best scrapping the lot and starting again. Or perhaps already collectively we have all we need at least as a framework; with international law, local legislation, social and personal morals (situational morals?). Let conscience be our guide? However we don't deal very well with hypocrasy so perhaps that's our biggest challenge now?

I did read recently that conscious decisions may be more spontaneous than was at first thought in that when individuals are faced with 'big' decisions (reader shall i marry him?) they are just as likely to make a snap decision as they are when faced with a small one (toast or cereal for breakfast). Length of time to make the decision appeared not seems to make much difference either. I may have misread the particular article but it does suggest there are some major implications if this is true. If humans are unable to make the 'right' decision alone perhaps they do need the gods to help them.....
or maybe we should just trust our instincts more to come up with the right decision?
 
sniffy said:
Perhaps we would be best scrapping the lot and starting again. Or perhaps already collectively we have all we need at least as a framework; with international law, local legislation, social and personal morals (situational morals?). Let conscience be our guide? However we don't deal very well with hypocrasy so perhaps that's our biggest challenge now?

Got a plan B?

Besides you start letting peoples morals be their guide you're bound to have history repeat itself.

The only way i see fit as a fix is tolerance. Something very few people have the patience for.
 
Ricky Houy said:
The only way i see fit as a fix is tolerance. Something very few people have the patience for.

So ...if they don't have the patience to do it, how can it be a fix?

Baron Max
 
Ricky Houy said:
Got a plan B?

Besides you start letting peoples morals be their guide you're bound to have history repeat itself.

The only way i see fit as a fix is tolerance. Something very few people have the patience for.

plan b: And the Lord said let there be tolerance. Those whosoever do not demonstrate it will burn in everlasting hell/won't reach Nirvana/won't swim with the virgins/ won't be reincarnated as a man.
plan c: Law 39 statute 67 states those who do not demonstrate tolerance will be fined £7000 for each offence.
plan d: School curriculum - History unit 1 Tolerance. A lack of tolerance has lead to history repeating itself ad nauseum. If you kids don't go out and get yourself some you're doomed to a perpetual cycle of blame and indignation.
plan e: A guide to practical parenting. Tolerance. A trait without which your child will not survive in this increasingly competitive world. Reason with your children and point out the many benefits and advantages of tolerance.
plan f: Vitamin c has been known to increase tolerance levels by 50%. Go out and buy some today.
plan g: New Tolerence vaccinations made widely available after successful pilot indicated that levels of co-operation were improved by a whopping 95% compared to the control group (hopelessly intolerant god botherers and those lacking moral fibre).
 
Jaster Mereel said:
However, with your ideas about monotheism I must argue. First, most societies throughout history have been patriarchal. Polytheism does not promote inherent equality among the sexes (not that this was your assertion), nor does it promote some kind of "balance" to a civilization, as you seem to be suggesting. Of course, since you pointed out the masculinity of monotheism I must ask that you define exactly what this "balance" is, before I continue to dissect your post. It seems at surface glance to be about the various inherent behavioral qualities that differentiate the sexes, but you are a smart man and so I don't want to go on the assumption that such is what you are talking about. It seems over simplistic, so clarification is needed. If it is about the various differences in behavior which separate man and women, then what are these behaviors? If you could list them for me, I'd be glad. I think it's been pretty well known throughout history that, when you attempt to find inherent differences between man and woman (psychologically, not physically), then a sharp contrast cannot be identified, only inferred through experience with members of the two sexes. If I'm wrong and you have the answer, I'd greatly appreciate your opinion, since it's one of those "big questions" of life.
The evidence is indeed strong that human societies have always been patriarchal. Women were indeed the "weaker sex" until very recently when contraception, substitutes for natural milk, and sedentary professions freed them from an endless cycle of pregnancy, childbirth, and nursing that kept them out of the mainstream. Nonetheless, women were more respected in the pre-Abrahamic days. Because of the biologically enforced division of labor, it was women who learned to be the healers, counselors, herbalists, cooks, and other home- and nearby field-centric specialists. Not to mention the awe in which they were held for the unique ability to create new life in eras when survival of the pack was a constant battle between reproduction and attrition. As Jean Auel hypothesizes, it may have been quite recently in our history that we recognized any role at all for males in the reproductive process. Ancient peoples had fertility goddesses and medicine women. These roles were institutionalized during the Bronze Age, whose incessant warfare required a constant replenishment of the male population and ensured that the only "elders" who survived to perfect and pass on their expertise were women.

It can be inferred, even from the male-biased version of history we have, that wise women with the respect of the community were regarded as a threat to the patriarchy of the Christian church, something which transcended the disenfranchisement, arranged marriages, and wartime rape of previous eras in its debasement of the status of women. Old men were rare so the attributes of age were attributed exclusively to the old woman: wrinkles, wispy hair, missing teeth, stark features from loss of subcutaneous fat, eccentric behavior, an air of disgust for foolish conventions... She who was once revered as a "medicine woman" was now cast as a "witch." Christians were taught to cast old women out of the community. It was no coincidence that this era saw long-civilized Europe degenerate into a dysfunctional Third World in its sanitation, disease, practical science, grooming, education, rationality, and human relations.

Inherent differences between men and women? Perhaps there are none. Nonetheless every culture seems to create a Venus-Mars paradigm. And you can't deny that Venus vs. Mars is an enduring symbol of its spirituality. Men have been the instigators of war with only a handful of exceptions, while women have just as consistently been the force of love.

Is something that occurs in virtually every human society in virtually every era not a textbook example of an archetype? Is it not genetically preprogrammed in our synapses due to an accident of DNA, or is it not inherited from an era when it was a survival trait that we can no longer understand, or is it not breathed into our souls by the goddess on our way down the birth canal--depending on one's preferred model of the human spirit? I cannot justify my conviction that there is a division of male and female spirituality--a yang and yin to refer to yet another long-respected model--using the tools of any of the "hard sciences." Yet the "soft sciences" like anthropology and psychology, despite their politically correct efforts to avoid it, provide a stunning and durable stream of support for my position, going back into prehistory. I never thought I would be the kind of elder who says things like, "I can't convince you that I'm right through rational means, but ignore my counsel at your peril." And here I am. :)

The Abrahamists celebrate Mars and suppress Venus. I cannot find a way around this model of recent history. To the extent that we all have Venus and Mars inside us regardless of our biological gender, it is perhaps not a hopelessly sexist view of humanity.

Black and white morality? Well, not all monotheism holds to this rigid analysis. True, American bible-belt fundamentalists tend to hold this view, but none of the major Christian Churches propogate such a simplistic view of the world, and neither do the other two Abrahamic faiths. In fact, both Judaism and Islam consider morality to be the affairs of man, not God, and that God transcends said morality. The Hebrews (originally) saw the law as belonging to the Hebrews alone. Islam extended it to all mankind. Still, though, as samcdkey (as the Muslim on this message board whom I hold to the highest intellectual standard) has stated many times, morality is man made. So, as you see, monotheism on the whole does not hold this black and white view of morality. This is the fault of individuals, not of belief systems, and if you were able to go back in time and talk to a (patriarchal) Greek, or Roman, or Gaul, or any other ancient person for that matter, you may find a similar percentage of them engaging in the same type of black and white view of human behavior. My point, if I haven't gone off track, is that this type of view is the fault of individuals who don't want to do the hard work associated with moral dilemmas, not of the type of beliefs which guide their judgments.
I think it's too facile to say that it's the followers of a prophet who are responsible for the failure of his teachings rather than the teachings themselves. As a professional manager I would be incompetent to the point of malpractice if I did not hold the managers who work for me responsible for the positive and negative acheivements of those they manage. I thus hold Jesus and Mohammed responsible for the evil done by their followers. Since they could not stick around to yell "stop" when things got really out of control I won't be too hard on them. But their Flower-Child naivete (especially Jesus's) and disdain for the flesh-and-blood world of reality (especially Mohammed's) indicate a consummate lack of the wisdom and the understanding of human nature with which they are traditionally credited.

Yes, patriarchy, intolerance, war--and all the other entries on what should be the true list of Seven Deadly Sins--have always been with us. But it's hard not to reach the conclusion that they have become far worse in Christian and Muslim civilization. (I give Judaism a tentative bye but probably because as the only non-evangelical member of the Terrible Triad it never achieved the size and power to do as much damage. Israel is hardly a reassuring harbinger of how it might be to live in a world with a billion Jews.) I've gone into this at great length on other threads. But to hit the highlights, only the Christians and Muslims have, in the name of their prophet, set out to utterly wipe from the face of the earth all traces of entire civilizations they considered "blasphemous."

Civilization is mankind's greatest and most precious achievement and he has only managed to create six of them. Three of those six were obliterated by Abrahamists. We still have enough artifacts, writings, and accounts of Egyptian civilization to not have completely lost it, thanks to its previous encounters with various offshoots of still-polytheistic Mesopotamian civilization. But the Aztecs and Incas were isolated from us until the Christians got there, burned their libraries, melted down their artworks, and destroyed their cities, so we have precious little of them left to enrich the surviving global civilization.

I assert that the destruction of a civilization is the worst sin that can be committed by human beings. It is eternally irreparable, it is eternally irrepentable, and so it is eternally unforgivable. It brands Christianity and Islam as inherently uncivilized, threats to the survival of the civilization we have left. The fact that Christianity and Islam are at this very moment squaring off and encouraging each other to "bring it on"--in the name of their prophets--only supports my point.

Abrahamism is the religion of Mars. We need a whole lot more Venus in this world if we expect civilization to survive.
 
There's not much of a difference. The Catholics have their saints, a patron saint for everything, with one guy in charge. The Pagans had many different Gods, with one guy in charge.
 
sniffy said:
plan b: And the Lord said let there be tolerance. Those whosoever do not demonstrate it will burn in everlasting hell/won't reach Nirvana/won't swim with the virgins/ won't be reincarnated as a man.
plan c: Law 39 statute 67 states those who do not demonstrate tolerance will be fined £7000 for each offence.
plan d: School curriculum - History unit 1 Tolerance. A lack of tolerance has lead to history repeating itself ad nauseum. If you kids don't go out and get yourself some you're doomed to a perpetual cycle of blame and indignation.
plan e: A guide to practical parenting. Tolerance. A trait without which your child will not survive in this increasingly competitive world. Reason with your children and point out the many benefits and advantages of tolerance.
plan f: Vitamin c has been known to increase tolerance levels by 50%. Go out and buy some today.
plan g: New Tolerence vaccinations made widely available after successful pilot indicated that levels of co-operation were improved by a whopping 95% compared to the control group (hopelessly intolerant god botherers and those lacking moral fibre).

You've never been to a debate class have you?
 
ricky: why would you need to go to a debate class, do you have to be taught to have an opinion, cant you think for yourself.
 
Shaitan said:
ricky: why would you need to go to a debate class, do you have to be taught to have an opinion, cant you think for yourself.

Usually in order to have a balanced and fair arguement, you actually have to come up with an arguement.

Also if you think debate class is a place you go to get taught peoples opinions, i suggest you sign up for a class too. Becuase it's a class that teaches you, how to defend your opinions.

How about this lesson, in order to have a fair debate, you're arguement can't consist of make believe, but an actual event against the oposing statement.
 
You asked if I had a plan b! Why don't you debate/challenge my reply? My point was (which admittedly was made rather sarcastically) is just saying that everyone should get a fix of tolerance is not a tenable solution. This I implied in my rather tongue in cheek list of 'plans'. You've never been to a class explaining irony have you?

Your own comment about tolerance is in fact 'make believe'. When you have a number of opposing religions preaching the opposite of tolerance - our god is the one true god. If there is one god then all others by implication are false.....but which is which? In that sense monotheism has not changed anything.
 
sniffy said:
You asked if I had a plan b! Why don't you debate/challenge my reply? My point was (which admittedly was made rather sarcastically) is just saying that everyone should get a fix of tolerance is not a tenable solution. This I implied in my rather tongue in cheek list of 'plans'. You've never been to a class explaining irony have you?

Your own comment about tolerance is in fact 'make believe'. When you have a number of opposing religions preaching the opposite of tolerance - our god is the one true god. If there is one god then all others by implication are false.....but which is which? In that sense monotheism has not changed anything.

Well thanks for clearing up your posts initial point. But i asked if you went to a debate class, because usually in a debate you give an arguement your opposer can actually argue. (basically i mean don't just give me a bunch of sarcastic use of a list because it doesn't leave much to debate)

Maybe if all these oppsing religions taught their followers tolerance it would work. Even a polotheistic religion can practice it, and even a large number of monotheistic religions.(even muslims in pakistan followed non violence, from Ghandi.) But even i openly admitted in my first, and second statement that it didn't work. Why? Because if it did work, we might have started trying it years ago. It cannot work in our reality for a few reasons, and one of those being on the unlikely fact that everyone will suddenly wake up and completely agree on one thing. Now that would be quite an irony.
 
Monotheistic religions cannot preach or practise tolerance because to do so would be tantamount to saying there is more than one god. the monotheists have already dismissed polytheism as primitive. In a bit of a fix aren't they?

So if we can't derive moral guidance from religion, nor from our illustrious leaders where does that leave us?
 
sniffy said:
Monotheistic religions cannot preach or practise tolerance because to do so would be tantamount to saying there is more than one god. the monotheists have already dismissed polytheism as primitive. In a bit of a fix aren't they?
Maybe not. There's always the "you were serving god, but just didn't know it" approach. From one of the Narnia books by C.S. Lewis...

"But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted."

Here Aslan and Tash are allegories for God and Satan. Of course, this still displays the one-dimensional view Fraggle was talking about (can every act be classified as 'vile' or 'non vile'?)
 
sniffy said:
Monotheistic religions cannot preach or practise tolerance because to do so would be tantamount to saying there is more than one god. the monotheists have already dismissed polytheism as primitive. In a bit of a fix aren't they?

So if we can't derive moral guidance from religion, nor from our illustrious leaders where does that leave us?

I can see where you're comming from, but just because you choose to coexist with a person of a different religion does not neccessarily mean you accept their religion.

It's more like a don't ask, don't tell situation. Like if everyones religion was as private as voting then not so many of us would be worried about it. If religion was a private matter, which it should be i could sit next to a muslim on a bus in israel without fear of getting blown up. But for another example there are a few countries in asia, where you can see buddhists, and hindus coexisting. But only because the form of buddhism and hindu are very simular. But even christianity/islam/jeudism are virtually simular in comparison.
 
Zephyr said:
Maybe not. There's always the "you were serving god, but just didn't know it" approach. From one of the Narnia books by C.S. Lewis...

"But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted."

Here Aslan and Tash are allegories for God and Satan. Of course, this still displays the one-dimensional view Fraggle was talking about (can every act be classified as 'vile' or 'non vile'?)

I think what this boils down to is acts which are considered "good", and those which are considered "bad". It's not anymore one-dimensional than any polytheistic religion because morality is still a matter of good and evil, even if you believe in multiple gods. Black and white morality has nothing to do with how many gods you worship. Polytheists were just as stuck on good and evil as monotheists are, it's just symbolized differently.
 
Baron Max said:
Sure it's changed things. If nothing else, the worship of one god has been a unifying effect for basic human societies. Instead of everyone worshippiing their own god, all of the same society worships the same god ..unity.
But what about Ancient the Persians, Greeks, Egyptians, Romans … - they were undoubtedly unified societies. As a matter of fact - I'd say polytheism was good because it meant that the unifying factor wasn't religious belief but unwritten societal contracts.

Take Japan for example. The Shinto Religion has at least a million Gods. Yet the Japanese are, and have been, one of the most unified societies.
 
LiveInFaith said:
Having no god , self righteousness will rule, and tends to anarchy.
The Dali Lama is self-righteous?
:bugeye:
Buddhists are self-righteous?
:bugeye:

Surely you jest?

I don’t know about you but I find monotheists are some of the most self-righteous people on the planet. Usually thinking their God, and hence their moral code, is the only true belief.
 
Last edited:
All in all, the advent of monotheism has not improved the human condition one iota. We are still quite fucked up.

It is very difficult for me to include atheists in that equation but at minimal they are guilty by association for just being human I guess. Actually no one can blame an atheist for any of the problems religion has created. I sure all atheists would love to take a crack at a crapload of gods than to keep hammering on the chosen one.
 
Back
Top