Has Islam ever split?

[Michael]

Are you stupid?

Apparently so...

I don't care about [Baha'i] beliefs. They are NOT Muslims. Stop making such a mess out of a straightforward topic.
... ...
Sikhs are not Muslims, obviously. You're in over your head. Quit making absurd connections.

Well then, what exactly is the connection between Baha'i, Sikhs and Islam?

Are they continuations of Abrahamic revelation's?
Are they perfections of Abrahamic revelations?
Are they splits in Islam?
Are they sects in Islam?

How exactly do you define these other faiths that were STARTED by MUSLIMS and continue to retain many Islamic mythologies?

Over my head or not it is an interesting topic and one apparently not resolved.

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

They also consider Baha'u'llah to be a manifestation of God. Are you willing to recognise that? Let me guess, I need to read it in Arabic.

I know some Muslims who pray at dargahs to Hajis. Like the Prophet said, “I have not been commanded to open up the hearts of people or to cut open their insides” to examine their faith.

 

[Michael]

Sikhs (for the nth time) have nothing to do with Islam.

Why is it that the Encyclopaedia of Islam states that Sikhism (founded by Guru Nanak in late fifteenth century) incorporates aspects of both Islam and Hinduism.

What exactly is a faith that incorporated aspects of both Islam and Hinduism? Is it a split from Islam? A continuation? What exactly?

 

[Michael]

Also S.A.M. I'm still confused as to what you meant when you wrote:
the Quran is, is a guideline. If you follow its philosophy in entirety, there is very little dissent between Muslims. Its why there has never been a split in the religion even though there are numerous numerous sects.

 

[Michael]

I consider Protestanism to be a split from Christianity. A split to me means there are irreconciliable differences regarding the same religion.

irreconcilable differences.

Like what exactly? What is an irreconciliable differences between Protestants and Catholics that caused you to define their relationship within Christianity as a split?

 

[Kadark]

Well then, what exactly is the connection between Baha'i, Sikhs and Islam?

Theologically, there are a few similarities (as there are in all religions). Beyond that, the wheels fall off as far as comparisons go. Even uttering the thought that these religions are somehow interconnected and continuations of one another is ripe with stupidity and hilarity.

Are they continuations of Abrahamic revelation's?
Are they perfections of Abrahamic revelations?
Are they splits in Islam?
Are they sects in Islam?

They aren't Islamic whatsoever. They're an entirely unique religion, started and practiced until today by their very own people. They don't share our history or beliefs. If they have adapted to some of our systems and outlooks, they've included tenfold of their own.

Over my head or not it is an interesting topic and one apparently not resolved.

Is anything concerning Islam ever resolved when it comes to you? You just pull completely unrelated, baseless theories out your ass, and clump together polar-opposite religions and cultures, trying to make some sort of entangled connection out of them. There is no substitute for knowledge.

 

[Kadark]

I know some Muslims who pray at dargahs to Hajis. Like the Prophet said, “I have not been commanded to open up the hearts of people or to cut open their insides” to examine their faith.

These must be a few scintillating examples of your overhyped "enlightened" Indian Muslims. In other words, concerning the original topic, viewing a human being as God's manifestation is completely unIslamic. Therefore, the Baha'i faith is not recognizable as even remotely Islamic.

Seriously now: how can we be arguing this? This is so conclusive and clear that it's tormenting.

 

[Michael]

Theologically, there are a few similarities (as there are in all religions). Beyond that, the wheels fall off as far as comparisons go. Even uttering the thought that these religions are somehow interconnected and continuations of one another is ripe with stupidity and hilarity.

Do you consider Islam to be a continuation of Christianity and Judaism?


If (or when) you hear a Xians say something like:

Theologically, there are a few similarities between Islam and Judaism and Xianity. Beyond that, the wheels fall off as far as comparisons go. Even uttering the thought that Islam is somehow a continuations of Judaism and Xianity is ripe with stupidity and hilarity.


Do you agree that they have a valid point?

 

[S.A.M.]

Why is it that the Encyclopaedia of Islam states that Sikhism (founded by Guru Nanak in late fifteenth century) incorporates aspects of both Islam and Hinduism.

What exactly is a faith that incorporated aspects of both Islam and Hinduism? Is it a split from Islam? A continuation? What exactly?

There are many syncretic religions and philosophers in India.
The similarity between Sikhism and Islam is that they are both monotheist religions and have prophets.

Sikh belief in God is similar to Muslims

The principal belief of Sikhism is faith in Vāhigurū—represented using the sacred symbol of ēk ōaṅkār, the Universal God. Sikhism advocates the pursuit of salvation through disciplined, personal meditation on the name and message of God. A key distinctive feature of Sikhism is a non-anthropomorphic concept of God, to the extent that one can interpret God as the Universe itself. The followers of Sikhism are ordained to follow the teachings of the ten Sikh gurus, or enlightened leaders, as well as the holy scripture entitled the Gurū Granth Sāhib, which includes selected works of many philosophers from diverse socio-economic and religious backgrounds. The text was decreed by Gobind Singh, the tenth guru, as the final guru of the Khalsa Panth. Sikhism's traditions and teachings are distinctively associated with the history, society and culture of the Punjab.

 

[Kadark]

Do you consider Islam to be a continuation of Christianity and Judaism?


If (or when) you hear a Xians say something like:

Theologically, there are a few similarities between Islam and Judaism and Xianity. Beyond that, the wheels fall off as far as comparisons go. Even uttering the thought that Islam is somehow a continuations of Judaism and Xianity is ripe with stupidity and hilarity.


Do you agree that they have a valid point?

No, they don't have a valid point. Our religion confirms every single one of the teachings of their religions. It's based off the same principals, philosophies, and outlooks. Our Prophet's mission was to reaffirm their tampered beliefs. Our mission was never to introduce a new way of life, or a new belief system.

 

[S.A.M.]

Also S.A.M. I'm still confused as to what you meant when you wrote:
the Quran is, is a guideline. If you follow its philosophy in entirety, there is very little dissent between Muslims. Its why there has never been a split in the religion even though there are numerous numerous sects.

According to the Quran, the Prophet is the messenger, he is only to pass on the message, not enforce the belief. The Quran also commands Muslims to hold fast to the rope that Allah has provided them (their faith) and not diverge between themselves. Most Islamic scholars agree that the simplicity of the Qurans message means that people of varying backgrounds will read the message but understand it based on their own background, exposure and understanding.

The idea of recognising that these differences are inevitable depending on the understanding of the believer and should not be an issue of division has led Islamic scholars in current times to emphasize that all decisions regarding faith should be left to God. There are some extremists like the Wahabis who demand that anyone who does not follow their strict interpretation is a kaafir and these extremists (also known as takfiris) are considered a destabilising influence in Islamic society (and ironically, by spreading fitna among the Muslims, can themselves be considered as fulfilling the criteria of terrorism, one of the offences punishable by death in Islam).

A few decades ago, some very wise scholars from Sunni and Shia Islam formed the "Dar al-Taqreeb al-Madhahib al-Islamiyyah" which translates into "Center for bringing together the various Islamic schools of thought", which is aimed at keeping all Muslims of the world as united as possible. This was the group responsible for the Shia fatwa. Because unlike other faiths, all that binds Muslims together is religion. To declare a Muslim as a kaafir is to cut off pieces from the body of the ulema and damaging to the religion in the long term.

 

[S.A.M.]

irreconcilable differences.

Like what exactly? What is an irreconciliable differences between Protestants and Catholics that caused you to define their relationship within Christianity as a split?

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/catholic_protestant.htm

 

[Michael]

No, they don't have a valid point. Our religion confirms every single one of the teachings of their religions. It's based off the same principals, philosophies, and outlooks. Our Prophet's mission was to reaffirm their tampered beliefs. Our mission was never to introduce a new way of life, or a new belief system.

Please Kadark of course EVERYONE thinks the exact same thing and the fact still remains that Xians will say about Islam everything that you say about Baha'i.

SEE: The BAHÁ'ÍS formal website

Bahá’u’lláh claimed to be nothing less than a new and independent Messenger from God. His life, work, and influence parallel that of Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, and Muhammad. Bahá’ís view Bahá’u’lláh as the most recent in this succession of divine Messengers.

The essential message of Bahá’u’lláh is that of unity. He taught that there is only one God, that there is only one human race, and that all the world’s religions represent stages in the revelation of God’s will and purpose for humanity. In this day, Bahá’u’lláh said, humanity has collectively come of age. As foretold in all of the world’s scriptures, the time has arrived for the uniting of all peoples into a peaceful and integrated global society. “The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens,” He wrote.

Let me repeat that: As foretold in all of the world’s scriptures

Seems Bahá’u’lláh not only meets whatever condition the Abrahamic religions have but also meets the conditions of ALL the worlds religions. Haaa! Try to one-up that one!


Anyway, the point is you do not concider Bahai Muslims. So, as that is the case: How do you describe it when Muslims start a New Religion?
- Do you call it a split from islam?
- A continuation of Islam
- A hearsay of Islam?

What exactly?

There are many syncretic religions and philosophers in India.
The similarity between Sikhism and Islam is that they are both monotheist religions and have prophets.

Sikh belief in God is similar to Muslims

Actually according to YOU and the Sikhism website they are Muslims.
1) They believe in One God.
2) It's perfectly within their religious system that Mohammad was a prophet they just don't make a big to-do about it.

(your two conditions were that people believe in One God and accept that Mohammad could have been a prophet)

"And many have been orthodox amongst the Muslims, and men of miracles, and Ashvini Kumaras, and the part-incarnations of Vishnu, all O all went the way of death. And many were the prophets and spiritual guides, yea, countless were they: they sprang from the dust and to dust they returned." (Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustati)

On their official website is states: Sikhism believes that people of different religions are equally capable of achieving salvation while still following their own religion.

So what are Hindus that were influenced by the Qur'an? How do you describe their relationship with Islam? A continuation? A perfection? What exactly?

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/catholic_protestant.htm

I didn't see any irreconcilable differences just the same sort of petty differences found in all religions - take Sunni and Shia for example. All religions have those sorts of things.

 

[S.A.M.]

Actually according to YOU and the Sikhism website they are Muslims.
1) They believe in One God.
2) It's perfectly within their religious system that Mohammad was a prophet they just don't make a big to-do about it.

They'd have to, I'm afraid, accept Mohammed and his revelations, to be Muslim.

So what are Hindus that were influenced by the Qur'an? How do you describe their relationship with Islam? A continuation? A perfection? What exactly?

Indians of varying religious philosophies.

I didn't see any irreconcilable differences just the same sort of petty differences found in all religions - take Sunni and Shia for example. All religions have those sorts of things.

Sunnis and Shias only differ in the belief of inherted vs elected Caliph which has nothing per se to do with Islam. And then you have a Sunni kingdom of Saudi vs a Shia elected President, so its basically moot. Further differences are greater within than between the two sects.

I'm not overly familiar with the differences between Catholics and Protestants but I was under the impression that they have clear differences in religious beliefs. If not, if the division is political, then I would have to say they are not split.

Do they consider each other as Christians? Are there sects in Christianity not considered as Christians by official decree? What is the status of the Eastern Orthodox Church?

 

[Michael]

S.A.M.

To be Christian, if I remember correctly, you need only accept Jesus as the Christ and Savior who died on the cross in your place because you're a dirty little birdy aren't you pfff... HaaaaHaaa! LOL..... sorry about that.

Seriously, something like accept Jesus as the Son and God and Messiah and your Savior blah blah blah and you're a bonafide Xian. The rest is just sprinkles on top. For example, to be a Baptist, you not only must be a Christian but also be Baptized in water, to be Catholic you have to bounce on top of a Priests lap for a bit - well if your a boy, if you're a girl you don't actually have a soul so its a mute point ... but then again, you know, it's all make-beleive anyway so one person will say yup I'm a Mormon and a Good Xian while a Methodist will probably say that the Mormon is Satin seed...

 

[Kadark]

Let me repeat that: As foretold in all of the world’s scriptures

Seems Bahá’u’lláh not only meets whatever condition the Abrahamic religions have but also meets the conditions of ALL the worlds religions. Haaa! Try to one-up that one!

Since when was a human manifestation of God a philosophy of the Abrahamic religions? Exactly, it isn't. Baha'i is a religion of its own - it's insulting to both sides for indicating anything otherwise.

Anyway, the point is you do not concider Bahai Muslims. So, as that is the case: How do you describe it when Muslims start a New Religion?
- Do you call it a split from islam?
- A continuation of Islam
- A hearsay of Islam?

If a Muslim starts a new religion, then that person is no longer a Muslim. They've willingly chosen to pursue an alternate path - doesn't mean it's a continuation of Islam. We believe that Muhammad was the final Prophet. Therefore, Baha'u'llah means jack squat to us.

 

[S.A.M.]

S.A.M.

To be Christian, if I remember correctly, you need only accept Jesus as the Christ and Savior who died on the cross in your place because you're a dirty little birdy aren't you pfff... HaaaaHaaa! LOL..... sorry about that.

Seriously, something like accept Jesus as the Son and God and Messiah and your Savior blah blah blah and you're a bonafide Xian. The rest is just sprinkles on top. For example, to be a Baptist, you not only must be a Christian but also be Baptized in water, to be Catholic you have to bounce on top of a Priests lap for a bit - well if your a boy, if you're a girl you don't actually have a soul so its a mute point ... but then again, you know, it's all make-beleive anyway so one person will say yup I'm a Mormon and a Good Xian while a Methodist will probably say that the Mormon is Satin seed...

Ah okay, so all Christians believe in Christ as their saviour and there are no religious schisms between the sects.

 

[Ghost_007]

To be a Muslim one has to believe in: God, in God's Angels, His Books, His Messengers, in the Hereafter and in Qadar (Destiny).

The belief in God, the divinity of the Quran and the Prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) underpin the Islamic belief, this belief is very strong, even among those that are not practising Muslims. I can’t see there ever being a situation where any of these points fall into any doubt. And within the Islamic World there is simply too much overlap and too much commonalities for any splits to emerge. I simply cannot see it happening.

You’ll have a few movements here and there (e.g. Bahai, Ahmadiyya) however they are very small and not really significant. You could regard the Sunni – Shia divide as a split but then again, most Sunnis consider (mainstream )Shias to be Muslim and vice versa. Declaring someone (or a group) to be a kafir is a major thing in Islam (you will hardly ever come across it happening), it is not something that cannot be done lightly (from the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad). A group can be labelled as being deviant, but that is something completely different to being labelled as disbelievers.

 

[iceaura]

Do they consider each other as Christians? Are there sects in Christianity not considered as Christians by official decree? What is the status of the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Yes, with reservations. No - there is no such official. It's a branch of Christianity that split off from what became modern Catholicism.

The splits in the Islamic religion - Shia, Sunni, Bahai, etc - are obvious to outsiders. When you have people killing each other based on their respective memberships in groups identified by sectarian allegiance, following different political leaders based on their sectarian identification, etc, you have a split whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. In another four or five hundred years (to catch up with Christianity) will you have had a couple of major wars between branches like those, associated with rival powers (Saudi Arabia and Iran, say) ? It's certainly possible.

And there is another split coming, wider than the differences that are motivating the "ethnic" (read: sectarian) cleansing of neighborhoods in Baghdad: as the Islamic world incorporates modern science and economics and such political chokers as feminism, some will change and others won't. The oppression of women in Islam is severe now, for example, and the release of that will probably prove incompatible with the basic religion as now practiced.

 

[S.A.M.]

The splits in the Islamic religion - Shia, Sunni, Bahai, etc - are obvious to outsiders

Those splits are more political, since religious differences are nominal. e.g. Shias pray and make Hajj in Mecca too. The Bahais do not consider themselves Muslims, even though other Muslims consider them as Muslims.

The Shia-Sunni clashes in Iraq are a consequence of having a minority dictator oppressing the majority population. Much like Ireland's Catholic Protestant rift.