Has anyone been following the trial of Warren Jeffs?

[Medicine*Woman]

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M*W: Warren Steed Jeffs is the fundamentalist leader (prophet) of an off-shoot sect of the LDS who was charged and convicted of the rape of a minor. The two kids involved were 19 year-old Allen Steed and 14 year-old Elissa Wall, first cousins. Warren Jeffs arranged this marriage and counseled the new husband and wife to have sex. This wasn't a legal marriage but what they call a "celestial marriage" that Warren Jeffs performed. Their parent, both followers of their prophet Warren Jeffs, consented to this "celestial marriage" for the sole purpose of procreation.

When Elissa Wall turned 21, she left the sect and filed charges on Warren Jeffs as an accomplice to rape by her husband/cousin Allen Steed.

The jury reached a guilty verdict, and the State of Utah is now pursuing rape charges against Allen Steed.

I followed this case on Court TV, and found it to be sad that the two kids (cousins) involved were both victims of Warren Jeffs. I watched the testimony of Allen Steed, and he was not the type of young man who would commit any crime. Personally, I hope he get's off, because he was a victim of Warren Jeffs, too.

I posted this here on the Religion forum, because all of the legal issues in this case stems from the off-shoot sect of the Fundamentalist LDS Church.

Have any of you followed it, and what do you think about how Warren Jeffs was been able to brainwash some 10,000 members of his church, some of it involving rape, incest, polygamy, and so on....?

 

[Orleander]

yeah I thought it was odd they charged Jeff's before they charged her husband.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

yeah I thought it was odd they charged Jeff's before they charged her husband.

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M*W: Yes, they sat a precedent with this case under Utah law by charging Jeffs as an accomplice to a rape. Just after the verdict came in, they filed charges of rape on Allen Steed. I hope Allen gets off since he was brainwashed to have sex with his cousin. They were both victims.

 

[spidergoat]

Her testimony was horrifying. How anyone could go through with it after seeing her reaction is a sick bastard.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Her testimony was horrifying. How anyone could go through with it after seeing her reaction is a sick bastard.

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M*W: You're right, I felt so sorry for what she had to endure under the control of Warren Jeffs. I also feel that her cousin/husband was also abused, in a manner of speaking, by Jeffs assumed power over his very young and gullible followers. Also, both sets of their parents should also be tried as accomplices in the rape.

 

[Baron Max]

Girls in India, Pakistan, Bang-a-Dish, and many African nations are married and have children of their own at 13 years of age. I wonder if they're all so "traumatized" as that Utah girl seemed to be? And they're usually forced into arranged marriages, too.

Is it the age that bothers y'all so much? Or is it something else?

Baron Max

 

[Orleander]

Girls in India, Pakistan, Bang-a-Dish, and many African nations are married and have children of their own at 13 years of age. I wonder if they're all so "traumatized" as that Utah girl seemed to be? And they're usually forced into arranged marriages, too.

Is it the age that bothers y'all so much? Or is it something else?

Baron Max

The forcing. A 13 yr old in those countries (where you are already helping to run a household, raise sibling, raising animals) is probably more mature than an American 13 yr old. When the life expectancy is only in the 40s, it pays to start young.

 

[Baron Max]

The forcing. A 13 yr old in those countries (where you are already helping to run a household, raise sibling, raising animals) is probably more mature than an American 13 yr old. When the life expectancy is only in the 40s, it pays to start young.

The age of consent in Utah is 14. The girl's parents approved the marriage. Where do you see any force? Or is it the after-the-fact testimony of the girl?

I think it's interesting that you seem quite content to go along with such arranged marriages in other nations.

Baron Max

 

[shorty_37]

The forcing. A 13 yr old in those countries (where you are already helping to run a household, raise sibling, raising animals) is probably more mature than an American 13 yr old.

I did all that when I was 13 and I am Canadian.

 

[Grantywanty]

The forcing. A 13 yr old in those countries (where you are already helping to run a household, raise sibling, raising animals) is probably more mature than an American 13 yr old. When the life expectancy is only in the 40s, it pays to start young.

No, that doesn't cut it for me, Baron Max is right here. To have some forty years get possession of a 13 years old is terrible. The fact that she cleans the house and takes care of her brothers does not mean she is ready to have an adult male have sex with her. Given that in these cultures her desire, interest, arousal, attraction, mood in the moment, feelings about the man mean nothing. His desire determines sex. It is a horrible thing.

 

[Grantywanty]

The age of consent in Utah is 14. The girl's parents approved the marriage. Where do you see any force? Or is it the after-the-fact testimony of the girl?

I think it's interesting that you seem quite content to go along with such arranged marriages in other nations.

Baron Max

I agree there is a contradiction and you are right to push him on that.

As a side note. Isn't there something strange about needing parent permissoin to get married. I mean, if you need their permission, you're not ready. A marriage is between two adults. If one is really a child and the state thinks they are not capable of making the decision to get married themselves, they ain't ready.

 

[Grantywanty]

I did all that when I was 13 and I am Canadian.

And my guess is if your family had showed up with a forty year old guy and basically said 'he now has the right to have sex with you whenever he wants and to make you pregnant' there is good chance you would have been horrified.

 

[Enterprise-D]

I did all that when I was 13 and I am Canadian.

Did you accomplish all of this while married and attempting to have your own children under some obscure religious reich...oops i mean 'right'?

 

[SkinWalker]

Girls in India, Pakistan, Bang-a-Dish, and many African nations are married and have children of their own at 13 years of age. I wonder if they're all so "traumatized" as that Utah girl seemed to be?

It isn't relavent to the discussion. Indeed, to compare the underage, non-consensual marriage practices of periphery nations to a state in a core nation is a logical fallacy since it doesn't follow that such cultural practices accepted elsewhere should be accepted in Utah.

The age of consent in Utah is 14. The girl's parents approved the marriage. Where do you see any force?

Its safe to assume that you aren't of such limited faculties as to not realize that you, yourself acknowledged in your first post in this thread that the marriage was "forced" by parents when you made your fallacious comparisson of a Western state to the cultural practices of developing nations. Therefore, can we not assume that the question you now pose is merely trolling once again, as with the pejorative use of Bangladesh above?

The victim testified that she did not consent to the marriage and sufficient evidence of her consent was not produced by the plaintiff.

Please do not troll this forum. It will not be tolerated.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Girls in India, Pakistan, Bang-a-Dish, and many African nations are married and have children of their own at 13 years of age. I wonder if they're all so "traumatized" as that Utah girl seemed to be? And they're usually forced into arranged marriages, too.

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M*W: Yes, in those cultures, arranged marriages between even younger people for the purpose of breeding is widely accepted, and surprisingly, those arranged marriages tend to last. I would even go so far as to say that arranged marriages at almost a pre-pubertal age in the fundamentalist Mormon communities (at least this one) was also an accepted practice.

I doubt that all the young arranged celestial marriages (not the legal kind) are not as traumatized as this girl seems to be. The 'trauma' of her situation was forced upon her by Jeffs through Allen Steed. Although her trauma was by sexual perpetration against her will, she had the courage to speak out against all that she was taught that was sacred. What I got out of the trial was that this wasn't about 2 incidences of sexual intercourse between two very young and horribly naive puppets of powerful and perverted adults, their parents included. I would like to see them go on trial. In my conscience, I cannot find Allen Steed to be a perpetrator. He was following orders through the direction of The Prophet which he believed came directly from god. He was also a victim.

Is it the age that bothers y'all so much? Or is it something else?

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M*W: For me, it wasn't about their age. Children in other cultures, as you pointed out, marry, have sex and babies as puberty sets in. For me, it was about the manipulation and mind control of human life. It's about people who follow blindly.
Baron Max[/QUOTE]

 

[Enterprise-D]

The age of consent in Utah is 14. The girl's parents approved the marriage. Where do you see any force? Or is it the after-the-fact testimony of the girl?

"After-the-fact" testimony does not invalidate her accusations. Perhaps she bided her time until she had the law on her side as a legal adult, not just a child with glorified rights. This age of consent lower limit in my opinion appears to be a ...questionable... convenience more than anything else.

I think it's interesting that you seem quite content to go along with such arranged marriages in other nations.
Baron Max

Other nations are not Utah.

Also the actual marriage ceremony following arranged marriages generally do not take place until the children are adults. The arrangement is made by the parents such that the children are "guided" to avoid other relationships because their future spouse is already chosen for the good of the two families. Additionally the children in Hindu arranged marriages do not generally begin having sex (for procreation) etc at age 14.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Isn't there something strange about needing parent permissoin to get married. I mean, if you need their permission, you're not ready. A marriage is between two adults. If one is really a child and the state thinks they are not capable of making the decision to get married themselves, they ain't ready.

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M*W: Yes, the legal age of consent in Utah is 14. I'm not sure if Jeffs was waiting for this girl to turn 14, because they were not legally married. They were married by Jeffs in a celestial marriage. That's how polygamists get around the law of plural marriages.

Now that Jeffs is convicted and faces life in prison, I hope the courts will prosecute the parents of both kids. All these people involved in this case, as well as the 10,000 other followers, are also victims of Warren Jeffs.

 

[Baron Max]

The victim testified that she did not consent to the marriage and sufficient evidence of her consent was not produced by the plaintiff.

Another instance of "He said, she said"? You believe the girl is telling the truth. Can you or anyone substantiate that?

According to her husband, he didn't rape her, he didn't force her. And indeed, according to him, she instituted the sexual advances.

Please do not troll this forum. It will not be tolerated.

I don't know what "trolling" is ...please explain it for me.

If it means taking another, a different, point of view on a topic, then are you simply saying that no arguments will be permitted?

Baron Max

Now that Jeffs is convicted and faces life in prison, ...

There are many, many vicious murderers and rapists who don't get live in prison for their crime!

I'm still oddly curious how he could be convicted on just the girl's testimony alone ...that seems oddly wrong to me. There are many divorces in this country where there's so much lying going on in court, that it's hilarious at best.

...I hope the courts will prosecute the parents of both kids. All these people involved in this case, as well as the 10,000 other followers, are also victims of Warren Jeffs.

What did the parents do wrong? They gave their consent for the girl to marry. According to Utah law, it seems they did nothing wrong.

As to all the others of the sect, it just seems to me that you're sticking your nose into some place where it doesn't belong. There is no evidence of any wrongdoing by the other members of the sect. Reading many of your posts, my best guess is that you just don't like anything religious ...no matter what it is. You call all believers idiots and other such names!

Baron Max

I saw this on another thread in the "Ethics" section. I thought I'd copy it and post it here. It was written and posted by "Madanthonywayne":

"Did any of you guys actually watch any of this trial? My wife loves Court TV so I saw a lot of it.

Apparently, the age of consent is 14 in Utah. So there's no statutary rape. Also, the girls parents approved of the marriage, which would make it legal. Although thru some technicality, the marriage wasn't legal because it was performed in Nevada.

Anyway, the "husband" came across as very sincere and likeable in his testimony. He seemed like a hick farmboy from over 100 years ago incapable of lying. The girl, by the way, cheated on him and got pregnant by some other man.

How can the relious leader be guilty of accesory to rape if no one was charged with rape? Not to mention that they at least believed themselves to be married and had parental consent!

The whole rape charge comes down to a "he said-she said" and the boy was quite believable. And if there was no rape.......how the fuck was Warren Jeffs guilty of being an accesory?

It seems utterly absurd to charge someone with being an accesory to a crime for which you haven't charged anyone. Especially when the guy who actually did the deed is right there in court testifying!!

I think this was a witch hunt and Warren Jeffs was found guilty because people find his views distasteful.

Please don't misinterpret this as approval on my part for Warren Jeffs' religious views or his promotion of incest, polygamy, etc. I just think he was railroaded in this case.

Perhaps Learned Hand, our resident lawyer, could give some input on this."

 

[Enterprise-D]

I saw this on another thread in the "Ethics" section. I thought I'd copy it and post it here. It was written and posted by "Madanthonywayne":

"Did any of you guys actually watch any of this trial? My wife loves Court TV so I saw a lot of it.

Apparently, the age of consent is 14 in Utah. So there's no statutary rape. Also, the girls parents approved of the marriage, which would make it legal. Although thru some technicality, the marriage wasn't legal because it was performed in Nevada....

Since you appear to favour the letter of the law Baron, take a look at the highlighted sentence segment...

Their marriage therefore is void. Following that, any sexual intercourse by the guy cannot be claimed as marital procreation. His testimony can be thrown out by the judge.

 

[Enterprise-D]

Arranged marriages as I pointed out do not actually come to fruition until the couple themselves do. Generally regarded as 18.

Speaking from my observation of Hinduism, arranged marriages are for the benefit of combining the wealth and resources of families, or for strengthening a perceived/plausible genetic line (eg, arrange a marriage between two smart children). The children themselves are not married immediately, merely informed that their spouse has been chosen, and discouraged from having other relationships. Generally speaking, and admittedly this generality is more present than (far) past, these children are not expected to have sex and multiply when they themselves are children.

Since I deal in the present, I regard the comparison between 20th/21st century Indian culture and this Utah circus is a hilarious misnomer.