Happy All Souls Day

one_raven

one_raven

God is a Chinese Whisper
Valued Senior Member
And may your beloved dead in Purgatory find their Beatific Vision.

Catholics are so weird.

What say the Catholics to the people who accuse them of stealing all their holidays, Gods and Saints in their syncretic absorption of conquered cultures?

I've never really read a reasoned response to this.
Most I have spoken to simply deny that it ever happened or shrug.
 
i never heard of all souls day, i have heard of the 'day of the dead'. many of these cultures are intertwined. look at santeria.
 
All Saints Day is to celebrate the dead who have achieved Beatific Vision - All Souls Day (Day of the Dead - same day, different name) is the day after and is to pray for those who are still in Purgatory because they have not achieved Beatific Vision.

Santeria is a perfect example of what I was talking about.
When the Catholic Church went into South America, they took adopted those they worshipped as Saints, and said, "Look, we worship them too. Join us." then they burned their books and forced them to adopt the new religion.
Now they are so intertwined, it is difficult to untangle them.
 
one_raven said:
All Saints Day is to celebrate the dead who have achieved Beatific Vision - All Souls Day (Day of the Dead - same day, different name) is the day after and is to pray for those who are still in Purgatory because they have not achieved Beatific Vision.

Santeria is a perfect example of what I was talking about.
When the Catholic Church went into South America, they took adopted those they worshipped as Saints, and said, "Look, we worship them too. Join us." then they burned their books and forced them to adopt the new religion.
Now they are so intertwined, it is difficult to untangle them.
Click to expand...

Yeah it is called engaging in Spiritual Harlotry.

The catholic church is looked upon by many as the harlot of babylon in the book of Revelation for this reason, and others


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
one_raven said:
And may your beloved dead in Purgatory find their Beatific Vision.

Catholics are so weird.

What say the Catholics to the people who accuse them of stealing all their holidays, Gods and Saints in their syncretic absorption of conquered cultures?

I've never really read a reasoned response to this.
Most I have spoken to simply deny that it ever happened or shrug.
Click to expand...

:shrug: I don't think it ever happened.
 
You think all the Catholic religions were made up by the Catholic church and did not exist before?
Easter?
Christmas?
These didn't exist in the pre-Christian religions?
 
I deny it! It never happened.

Just kidding. But wouldn't it be freaky if I really did think so?

Anyway, sure, I feel kinda bad about Easter and Christmas. I usually subsume such feelings in my joy, of course - I so, so, sooOOOOO love Christmas! - but I'm not ignorant of the fact they were borrowed. I remind the kids about this as we celebrate, at the appropriate time - the tree going up, the eggs being consumed, etc etc. But I do celebrate them, and I feel good about them, even though I'm sorry they were stolen. If they moved either of the Catholic days to later or earlier - in particular, we could follow the Eastern Church on Christmas - that would probably be most appropriate, if you ask me.

But I wouldn't not celebrate for fear of offending the Celtic or Saxon faiths. I respect them. (Actually, I do tell the kids about Odin and Thor and Freya and Culchulain and Manadin and Bel, etc.)
 
I was wondering more about how you feel about the church essentially making these holidays and saints up, when supposedly they are supposed to be following the teachings of The Bible and Jesus.
A great deal of the Catholic Church has no support at all (or scant support) from The Bible and the words of Jesus.
They are words of apologists who have come after the fact to sort of "fill in the blanks" of what they think the scriptures to say (or want them to say).
Many of them have direct roots in the religions that the church tortured and killed people for following.
Not that I am saying that nobody should be Catholic because they did bad things - but I am questioning the validity of the beliefs that came about through this.

Papal infallibility does sit well with me - even though I am no longer a Catholic and haven't been for 30 years.
I can understand believing that The Bible is the "Word of God" and having faith in that. I don't agree, but I can understand it.
Putting your faith in the words of men, however - especially considering what we know the sordid history of the various popes who were in bed with the corrupt rulers of Rome - is an entirely different thing.
I mean, Buying Indulgences? Really?

How well does that sit with you ("you" as in "Catholics" - nothing personal), knowing that a great deal of the beliefs, practices and tenets of your religion were made up by murderous, corrupt popes and do not align with what is in The Bible (the Word of God)?
This is a large part of the reason I left the church, and I can't imagine NOT leaving upon learning this.

I am curious about the perspective of those who ARE aware of all this and continue to belong to the church.
 
Simply: It doesn't bug me enough to leave, though I won't repeat their mistakes. Leaving it would hardly help now.
 
GeoffP said:
Simply: It doesn't bug me enough to leave, though I won't repeat their mistakes. Leaving it would hardly help now.
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But do you BELIEVE it?
Or do you believe The Bible is truth?

Where does your faith lie; The Bible, The Papal Doctrines or otherwise?
 
Generally the Bible, but not all; doctrines where they seem reasonably derived; elements of the Nicene conclusions, and so forth.

I certainly believe the upshot message.
 
So you are kind of a "light" Catholic?

I personally refuse to identify myself with a religion, unless I believe all of it.
I have a lot of respect for what Jesus said, but I am not a Christian any more than I am a Nietzschean, because I don't follw either 100%.

Do you know the official or othodox Catholic response would be?
 
Not a light one, just one looking for the right approach. Although what's "light"?
 
Light, as in celebrate the holidays, go to mass for funerals and weddings, maybe for Easter and Christmas, but not very devout.
Someone who is Catholic because he was born that way and hasn't left either because he hasn't found something more suitable to his beliefs, or just can't be bothered because it is not such a big part of his life - it is just who he is.
 
Well, I believe strongly I think, but it wavers back and forth as I evaluate new evidence, or what I consider to be evidence. Also, I can't compromise humanitarian issues for the sake of religion - call it adherence to the central Christian tenet, if you will.
 
GeoffP said:
Well, I believe strongly I think, but it wavers back and forth as I evaluate new evidence, or what I consider to be evidence. Also, I can't compromise humanitarian issues for the sake of religion - call it adherence to the central Christian tenet, if you will.
Click to expand...
I understand that.

Then why Catholic, specifically?
Sorry that this has turned into a GeoffP interview, thread - but nobody else is responding.
Maybe it should be moved to About the Members".:)
 
I choose Catholicism because I feel it captures much of the original intent of Christianity compared to the various Protestant movements (minus a few glaring errors which most of the other movements also have), and because I agree with the fascinating concept of Trinity. Also, I like the singing. Perhaps I'm too creduluous, but there it is. I certainly wouldn't pillory someone for going to a different sect or faith, of course.
 
one_raven said:
But do you BELIEVE it?
Or do you believe The Bible is truth?

Where does your faith lie; The Bible, The Papal Doctrines or otherwise?
Click to expand...

I believed the Bible. That’s why i left catholicism. In the end you cannot stay with what you see as false.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar said:
I believed the Bible. That’s why i left catholicism. In the end you cannot stay with what you see as false.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Click to expand...

I can fully relate to that. I've stopped identifying myself (recently) as a Sunni or Shia or Hanafi or whatever. Its got nothing to do with Islam.

one_raven said:
I personally refuse to identify myself with a religion, unless I believe all of it.
Click to expand...

All or nothing eh? You have my sympathies. I know how that works. :p
 
S.A.M. said:
All or nothing eh? You have my sympathies. I know how that works. :p
Click to expand...

Not so much all or nothing, but certainly fundamentalist.
I take from Jesus what I find wise in his teachings, but do not refer to myself as a Christian, because I do not follow all of his teachings.

...Buddha...Buddhist...
...Nietzsche...Nietzschean...
...Krishnamurti...and so on
 
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