That's great but I don't think it reflects the experience of most Christians.
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Guilt & Shame
- Thread starter Grantywanty
- Start date
That's great but I don't think it reflects the experience of most Christians.
However the key difference between shame and guilt (as anthropologists define it as well as how the English definitions differ) is that you feel shame in the presence of others.
It does make a difference who those others are, what they mean to one.
There are people in front of whom (or with whom in mind) I would not be ashamed to swear.
And then there are people in front of whom (or with whom in mind) I would be ashamed to swear.
Yes but then what you would feel is guilt not shame. Perhaps this discussion belongs in linguistics not religion.
Yes, the terms are troublesome. I don't like using the terms "guilt" and "shame" because there are so many connotations or specific contextual uses to them.
A more polished way of saying 'selfish'.I think Christianity is solipsistic. Selfishness is only a symptom of this solipsism.
Kind of ironic for a religion solely established on the destruction of self, isn't it.
I'll try explaining it, I don't think I did so in my initial post.I think your definitions are wrong.
Shame is the opposite of selfish--it's all about what other people think. I am only shamed when others see me as having done something wrong. Guilt is internalized. I feel guilty because what I have done goes against my own belief system. In both cases, the individual feels responsible but for different reasons.
First, I define Shame and Guilt based on how we usually experience them.
Now, the language of 'guilt' is commonly formal and is closely associated with law. For example, when the verdict is read, the state finds a man guilty of said charge.
The language of law is a harsh one- cold, strategic logarithms contrived to mete out generalized justice on general terms.
The court, therefore, does not use words such as 'shame'.
The langauge of shame, in contrast, is commonly informal. Its found in prayer, confessionals, the comfort of friends, loved ones. The language of 'shame' is, therefore, closely associated with emotions and is thereby more personal.
Observe the way Orleander uses it:
And I'm ashamed of myself when I lose control and do
That we recognize laws as being external devices designed to control mass, the word 'guilt' associated with it becomes a social experience.
Guilt is therefore a social experience, and is, becuase of its parasitic relation with Law, a generalized fear of punishment.
Shame, a word tightly bound with those arrogant 'virtues' of honor, is incredibly selfish and personalized, independent of law.
And so, I see that its becuase of this difference that Las Vegas is possible. The law decides guilt, while one's soul decides shame.
This is why I say shame is selfish.
I agree with others here who have already stated that this is largely a semantic issue. The words, 'guilt' and 'shame', are not defined properly to be used in the sense with which the opening post would have us use them. Therefore, task #1 would be to provide a definition. And, as we can see, that's easier said than done.
Good points have been made on all sides.
However, there is a point I'd like to make on the nature of shame that should weigh rather heavily on the scales.
We all (hopefully...) bear a shame in common. It is a shame that is instilled in each and every civilized human being and is one which we carry with us all our lives (barring senility and insanity).
Toilet training.
We are shamed into finding our own waste products foul and disgusting. We are shamed into shitting in toilets rather than our pants or the living room floor.
Shame.
Not guilt.
Guilt would be, "Look what baby did. Now mommy has to clean it up. Bad baby. Making mommy clean all the time."
Shame is, "Bad baby! Dirty disgusting baby! Look at that! Gross! You're bad!"
It should be noted that practically all guilt/shame is imposed from the outside. Thus, this can't be the divider between the two as some would have it.
Rather, it must be the nature of the reaction itself.
Provide said definitions?
Good points have been made on all sides.
However, there is a point I'd like to make on the nature of shame that should weigh rather heavily on the scales.
We all (hopefully...) bear a shame in common. It is a shame that is instilled in each and every civilized human being and is one which we carry with us all our lives (barring senility and insanity).
Toilet training.
We are shamed into finding our own waste products foul and disgusting. We are shamed into shitting in toilets rather than our pants or the living room floor.
Shame.
Not guilt.
Guilt would be, "Look what baby did. Now mommy has to clean it up. Bad baby. Making mommy clean all the time."
Shame is, "Bad baby! Dirty disgusting baby! Look at that! Gross! You're bad!"
It should be noted that practically all guilt/shame is imposed from the outside. Thus, this can't be the divider between the two as some would have it.
Rather, it must be the nature of the reaction itself.
However the key difference between shame and guilt (as anthropologists define it as well as how the English definitions differ) is that you feel shame in the presence of others.
Provide said definitions?
If I recall right, Dante ascribed shame to younger people and distinguished it from guilt. Shame comes more from knowledge of self-inadequacy.
Guilt and shame.... Yes, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are based on shame and guilt. Hinduism, however, also has shame and guilt at its base: karma and caste system are the evidence. There are guilt and shame in pagan religions, but there emphasis on fate is far greater: whether you like it or not, certain events will take place. I don't recall guilt in Norse religions, but shame (or fear of it) is certainly there. I am not familiar with far-East, African, or Native American religions. Whenever there is a strong emphasis on duty in society, you can safely bet that shame (or fear of it) is at the center of its religion. I can't think of any society that is as guilt-ridden as American society, and this one was based on Puritan morals.
Guilt and shame.... Yes, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are based on shame and guilt. Hinduism, however, also has shame and guilt at its base: karma and caste system are the evidence. There are guilt and shame in pagan religions, but there emphasis on fate is far greater: whether you like it or not, certain events will take place. I don't recall guilt in Norse religions, but shame (or fear of it) is certainly there. I am not familiar with far-East, African, or Native American religions. Whenever there is a strong emphasis on duty in society, you can safely bet that shame (or fear of it) is at the center of its religion. I can't think of any society that is as guilt-ridden as American society, and this one was based on Puritan morals.
Toilet training.
We are shamed into finding our own waste products foul and disgusting. We are shamed into shitting in toilets rather than our pants or the living room floor.
Shame.
Not guilt.
Guilt would be, "Look what baby did. Now mommy has to clean it up. Bad baby. Making mommy clean all the time."
Shame is, "Bad baby! Dirty disgusting baby! Look at that! Gross! You're bad!"
That's true, of course.
But many animals don't like to be filthy either. True, they will occasionally roll in the mud etc. - but this is actually for hygienic reasons, to get rid of fleas and such.
Obviously, there are survival benefits of being (relatively) clean. So it's understandable that being clean is taught and promoted, and being un-clean is sought to be eradicated.
And similar could be applied to mental (and social) hygiene.
The concept of shame can thus simply be a mental auxiliary for establishing this hygiene.
Which religions are guilt based? Many Christians do believe in original guilt, as well as original sin.
Which are shame based? I do not know, unless it is the same as guilt.
Are there differences in the kinds of guilt & shame?
If we do a breakdown of religions around these two psychological phenomena what does it look like?
Which are shame based? I do not know, unless it is the same as guilt.
Are there differences in the kinds of guilt & shame?
If we do a breakdown of religions around these two psychological phenomena what does it look like?
I've heard that just as original sin, you were born with it. It is the same as being born with original guilt. I'm not sure if any other religions believe this, but I know that many Christians do.
I would say shame is the inability to assuage guilt, the offender is ostracised or the transgression is publicly displayed - recall the stocks and debtors prisons that were an attempt to shame people as punishment. There are plenty of examples of religious guilt in certain religious writings, and the reparation of same. Otherwise there's the shame of being unable to do anything about the transgression against the group.
As for our waste products, that's instinctive. By the time a child is weaned their shit smells bad enough they don't need to be reminded it's "bad". They do need to be reminded what to do about it though.
As for our waste products, that's instinctive. By the time a child is weaned their shit smells bad enough they don't need to be reminded it's "bad". They do need to be reminded what to do about it though.
So, I would say, where religions - which are organised groups - are concerned, every last one of them uses guilt, and shame. But so does every other group I can think of. They're pretty universal to humans. Humans in groups, that is.Which religions are guilt based?
Which are shame based?
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