ok, but can you refuse to go to heaven? That's what I want to know. Not if it would be stupid not to accept entrance into heaven
"Good" Atheists are going to heaven
- Thread starter one_raven
- Start date
Actually, you have free will to choose to go, or not to go, right now.
John 3:13-21 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
John 1:12,13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:13-21 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
John 1:12,13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
ok...that leaves me with some more questions:
1. will god not be pissed off when you as a mere mortal would refuse to enter heaven?
2. would it be possible for god to force you to go to heaven, even if you do not want to? And if he can't force you does that mean he is not all powerful? And if he can force you, does it mean we don't have a free will and are just machines made to fancy the whims of god?
iris beyley
Registered Member
haven and hell
People why to worry about where you are going after, how many of you know your history it seems that everybody I know stop reading and learning after school years are over, please research ! the new historical discoveries tells you that everything you learned about the bible, god and religion was invented in ancient times to control the population at that time, its nothing evil in learning the truth, I believe in a creator or god, but I do not believe in any human religions and by the way the bible is very human with mistakes, fantasies and all, research the sumerian civilizations thats where our history start, then see how Constantino and his mother created Jesus, by the way that was not his real name and they made cristianity even the names in the bible were created because in ancient times the alphabet did not have any vowels sounds they twisted history, keep what they wanted and burn anything that was not to their liking, the bible only talks about one group of people, the history of the jews! just like a family tree so why we all go by it I do not know I am not a jewish so the bible is not my family tree, and jews did not even like jesus at all!
People why to worry about where you are going after, how many of you know your history it seems that everybody I know stop reading and learning after school years are over, please research ! the new historical discoveries tells you that everything you learned about the bible, god and religion was invented in ancient times to control the population at that time, its nothing evil in learning the truth, I believe in a creator or god, but I do not believe in any human religions and by the way the bible is very human with mistakes, fantasies and all, research the sumerian civilizations thats where our history start, then see how Constantino and his mother created Jesus, by the way that was not his real name and they made cristianity even the names in the bible were created because in ancient times the alphabet did not have any vowels sounds they twisted history, keep what they wanted and burn anything that was not to their liking, the bible only talks about one group of people, the history of the jews! just like a family tree so why we all go by it I do not know I am not a jewish so the bible is not my family tree, and jews did not even like jesus at all!
1. The Bible tells us God has provided salvation (see SVRP's post) and from the "lost and found" parables we know that God is saddened when one of his children are lost, and rejoices when he is found. (cf. Luke 15:6"...there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. ")
God has never treated his children as "mere mortals", but he does get angry when they disobey. In fact, we all deserve His wrath, since we have all strayed, and are only saved from it by being reconciled with Him:
John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Rom. 5:9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.".
2.Is forced freedom not slavery? All atheists in this board will tell you it is. Your question is a self-sustaining fallacy because it denies the possibility that God has made Himself plain to you (literally in Jesus) and asks you to choose.
Rom.5:7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
You are speeding down a raging river and asking which side is out. If you don't think you are guilty before God, then you are not in need of salvation or redemption, and heaven has no meaning for you other than what you see in movies like "What dreams may come", or other popular nirvanas.
God has never treated his children as "mere mortals", but he does get angry when they disobey. In fact, we all deserve His wrath, since we have all strayed, and are only saved from it by being reconciled with Him:
John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Rom. 5:9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.".
2.Is forced freedom not slavery? All atheists in this board will tell you it is. Your question is a self-sustaining fallacy because it denies the possibility that God has made Himself plain to you (literally in Jesus) and asks you to choose.
Rom.5:7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
You are speeding down a raging river and asking which side is out. If you don't think you are guilty before God, then you are not in need of salvation or redemption, and heaven has no meaning for you other than what you see in movies like "What dreams may come", or other popular nirvanas.
Iris,
someone has fed you those lies and you are just regurgitating them. What exactly are "new historical discoveries" and how are they different from previous historical discoveries? You mean that new evidence has come to light which shows earlier historical records were fabrications, and "new" ones are true?
I have done my research as you suggest, and I have become in more secure in my faith as a result. You have rightly discovered that "all religions are human and all gods are divine". You say you believe in a creator. Who is He? And if He has revealed Himself to his creation, would all testimony about that revelation by by nature human?
Yes, the Bible is a human historical record - but it is one testifying about the God who created that humanity. God who made Himself known in the most complete way possible, by becoming human.
As to the names: what is a name? It is your identity. As Shakespeare said: a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet. "God with us" is a name. Whether you pronounce it Ya'shua, Joshua or Jesus. "I am" is who God is, wether you call Him Abba, father or YHWH.
The Bible is preserved history, not twisted history. If what is contained therein condemns people, why would they change it to condemn them even further?
someone has fed you those lies and you are just regurgitating them. What exactly are "new historical discoveries" and how are they different from previous historical discoveries? You mean that new evidence has come to light which shows earlier historical records were fabrications, and "new" ones are true?
I have done my research as you suggest, and I have become in more secure in my faith as a result. You have rightly discovered that "all religions are human and all gods are divine". You say you believe in a creator. Who is He? And if He has revealed Himself to his creation, would all testimony about that revelation by by nature human?
Yes, the Bible is a human historical record - but it is one testifying about the God who created that humanity. God who made Himself known in the most complete way possible, by becoming human.
As to the names: what is a name? It is your identity. As Shakespeare said: a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet. "God with us" is a name. Whether you pronounce it Ya'shua, Joshua or Jesus. "I am" is who God is, wether you call Him Abba, father or YHWH.
The Bible is preserved history, not twisted history. If what is contained therein condemns people, why would they change it to condemn them even further?
iris beyley
Registered Member
religion or not religion
I respect the believe of anybody, what I do not like is the way religion has been force into us, the believe of a haven and hell, in ancient times it was easy to influence the population because only a few were able to read and write and this few were the leaders, in the history of man on earth, man always had the need to believe on something, to tell him it he is been good or bad. when things goes bad is evil forces to blame or the will of god if things were good is still gods will and man was happy with this way of thinking now in this times humanity is looking for the truth and the truth is out there looking back into history and see what is reality and what is fantacy, if you decide to believe in what the bible tells you good for you, as for me I believe when I can see it smell it and taste it I guess thats my human nature, I do not take a not for an answer and I do not take anybodys word if they can not show me prove, It is easier to blame some unseen forces that to take resposibility for our own actions I guess is call (god will).
I respect the believe of anybody, what I do not like is the way religion has been force into us, the believe of a haven and hell, in ancient times it was easy to influence the population because only a few were able to read and write and this few were the leaders, in the history of man on earth, man always had the need to believe on something, to tell him it he is been good or bad. when things goes bad is evil forces to blame or the will of god if things were good is still gods will and man was happy with this way of thinking now in this times humanity is looking for the truth and the truth is out there looking back into history and see what is reality and what is fantacy, if you decide to believe in what the bible tells you good for you, as for me I believe when I can see it smell it and taste it I guess thats my human nature, I do not take a not for an answer and I do not take anybodys word if they can not show me prove, It is easier to blame some unseen forces that to take resposibility for our own actions I guess is call (god will).
why do you want to believe in god if this is true?
Good question
Why are religious people so content? when ,if what they believed were true, this would be a very disturbing and scary world indeed.
My theory is the type of person who is religious is the same type of person you will find in an abusive relationship. They are weak and scared and only feel right when they are being submissive.
Why are religious people so content? when ,if what they believed were true, this would be a very disturbing and scary world indeed.
My theory is the type of person who is religious is the same type of person you will find in an abusive relationship. They are weak and scared and only feel right when they are being submissive.
iris beyley
Registered Member
believe or not believe
Thank you, I have found that the more education a person has the more open minded is, and the more money it has the less religious it is, ( beats me) ha, ha, third word countries are very poor and people are very deeply religious thats when you notice that the churches have a very strong hold on this peoples mind also, I had met people from this countries that prefer to go hungry as long as they pay their dues to the church.
Thank you, I have found that the more education a person has the more open minded is, and the more money it has the less religious it is, ( beats me) ha, ha, third word countries are very poor and people are very deeply religious thats when you notice that the churches have a very strong hold on this peoples mind also, I had met people from this countries that prefer to go hungry as long as they pay their dues to the church.
iris beyley
Registered Member
god god god
Mr. monkey
The reazon you can not find it is because you do not want to know the truth, you have to research, no historian wants to change history now because is to confy the way it is, everything new out there is been proved for the last 100 years but no body wants to change anything is to tedious and to costly for the religions of this world to change, ej. catholic church the most rich church in the world rather kill than to let their man made son of good fall apart. Or you forgot the middle ages when in the name of god they kill hundreds of people because they were non believers, and more recently in the last hundred years they sat back when hitler kill jews because the jews do not agree with new testament of the bible, because they took the jewish history and make a mockery of it. Wow were have you been? hidden in the bible? by the way I got a copy of the death sea scrolls, do you? I also have a coran beautiful book did you read it how about hinduism and all the other religions in the world how do you know they are not the real thing . By the way do you know that Peter was not the gate keeper but Jesus let this job to his Brother James, but constantino decided that peter was better for his new sect cristianity and change it, since the bible was a compilation of the jewish historical records you should start searching there, constantino was very smart but the jews were better he was able to destroy some of their records but the jews were able to hide the rest. Maybe you do not want to know because it will hurt your believes, as for me I will live and die learning I have a purpose in life and is to discover the truth. I have see the other side have you?
Mr. monkey
The reazon you can not find it is because you do not want to know the truth, you have to research, no historian wants to change history now because is to confy the way it is, everything new out there is been proved for the last 100 years but no body wants to change anything is to tedious and to costly for the religions of this world to change, ej. catholic church the most rich church in the world rather kill than to let their man made son of good fall apart. Or you forgot the middle ages when in the name of god they kill hundreds of people because they were non believers, and more recently in the last hundred years they sat back when hitler kill jews because the jews do not agree with new testament of the bible, because they took the jewish history and make a mockery of it. Wow were have you been? hidden in the bible? by the way I got a copy of the death sea scrolls, do you? I also have a coran beautiful book did you read it how about hinduism and all the other religions in the world how do you know they are not the real thing . By the way do you know that Peter was not the gate keeper but Jesus let this job to his Brother James, but constantino decided that peter was better for his new sect cristianity and change it, since the bible was a compilation of the jewish historical records you should start searching there, constantino was very smart but the jews were better he was able to destroy some of their records but the jews were able to hide the rest. Maybe you do not want to know because it will hurt your believes, as for me I will live and die learning I have a purpose in life and is to discover the truth. I have see the other side have you?
Dear Iris,
this was not a rethorical question meaning that you should not under any circumstances believe in this god. i was just curious why you want to believe in such an apparantly 'grumpy' god?
because if a child would behave like this in our society we would say to the child that it is behaving 'childish.' I can't really find the right word as you see, but maybe you know what i mean.
this was not a rethorical question meaning that you should not under any circumstances believe in this god. i was just curious why you want to believe in such an apparantly 'grumpy' god?
because if a child would behave like this in our society we would say to the child that it is behaving 'childish.' I can't really find the right word as you see, but maybe you know what i mean.
Monkey,
I know what you mean - and that's the way He treated his children while they were still children. But I know you would object to being treated like a child and so would I. We are no longer children but adults. We have taken responsibility and can't blame anyone else for what we do now or in the future. On the other hand we get people like iris here who still likes to point fingers. Nobody is "good" or "right". The Bible says this and it is quite evident in life. Neither the Catholics or Hitler or the Protestants or the Jews were "right" during WW2. Nobody is "right" under God, because nobody keeps all His commandments, and we can't redeem ourselves. Nobody loves as He created us to love.
You asked me why I still believe in God if it was true that I am condemned under His rule. This is why:
John 3
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
I know it's repulsive to you to be expected to believe, to be considered 'outside' of a kingdom you don't even recognize, and a God nobody can see. The problem with history is that it only happens once, it cannot be scientifically proven or repeated. We have mysteries and shadows - pyramids, stonehenges, nazca lines, lost civilizations and species - to puzzle over. Religion is one of those vague bothersome things that are best left to the fanatics. Unless there is some truth hidden somewhere. That's the truth we all would like to find. If there is a God, we would like to find Him. The problem is that we were born into this creation that we can only understand by the genius of people who were born before us. And everybody was born in the same condition of sin. You can believe the reasons given in the Bible or not - but once you realize your position you realize that God's plan for salvation must have been in motion from day one.
The God who made mankind must still have the template, and Christ is it. He is our way back to Him.
I know what you mean - and that's the way He treated his children while they were still children. But I know you would object to being treated like a child and so would I. We are no longer children but adults. We have taken responsibility and can't blame anyone else for what we do now or in the future. On the other hand we get people like iris here who still likes to point fingers. Nobody is "good" or "right". The Bible says this and it is quite evident in life. Neither the Catholics or Hitler or the Protestants or the Jews were "right" during WW2. Nobody is "right" under God, because nobody keeps all His commandments, and we can't redeem ourselves. Nobody loves as He created us to love.
You asked me why I still believe in God if it was true that I am condemned under His rule. This is why:
John 3
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
I know it's repulsive to you to be expected to believe, to be considered 'outside' of a kingdom you don't even recognize, and a God nobody can see. The problem with history is that it only happens once, it cannot be scientifically proven or repeated. We have mysteries and shadows - pyramids, stonehenges, nazca lines, lost civilizations and species - to puzzle over. Religion is one of those vague bothersome things that are best left to the fanatics. Unless there is some truth hidden somewhere. That's the truth we all would like to find. If there is a God, we would like to find Him. The problem is that we were born into this creation that we can only understand by the genius of people who were born before us. And everybody was born in the same condition of sin. You can believe the reasons given in the Bible or not - but once you realize your position you realize that God's plan for salvation must have been in motion from day one.
The God who made mankind must still have the template, and Christ is it. He is our way back to Him.
i see your point, and at the same time I don't see it. Because for me this statement does not have any obvious connections to my own thoughts . Therefore it remains an enigma for me. But from your explanation i notice that it means a lot to you. But i guess that is how religion works.
I believe there is nothing more valuable than life, especially human life. This value is not intrinsic, it's not only a value I atribute to it, but a meaning given to life by a Creator. We have more significance than a leaf in the wind, or a cell that "holds together for a while and then bursts", to quote Tolstoy. If God is taken out of the equasion nothing is left but our own efforts. And these efforts become a "chase after wind".
Our significance and importance go much further than leading a "good life" and making the most of it while we're alive. I'm no mystic spiritual, but as I observe nature and the way things are, I can't help but see that everything has it's own unique nature, but life and death is universal. And not only that: it is usually associated with prolonged struggling and suffering and in most cases accompanied by emotions like fear, hate, anger, and hopelessness. Why are these feelings natural, and what is their natural opposite? It's a condition - not as in "it has to be a condition, because..." - I'm not trying to make sense of it, I'm just observing things as they are.
Yet, in spite of everything, there are qualities in life that seem out of place: hope, beauty, contentment - they are so overwhelmed by harsh reality that they seem almost anomalies. I hesitate to use the word 'miracles'. Even nature, animals are in constant pain: hunting for food, being hunted, starving. It's a condition that defies reason. Sometimes we try to make a connection, a cause and effect - we give them names like "survival" and "evolution", but they're just names describing what we see.
What about what we don't see? If love has cause, it stops being pure love, if is has a reward, it stop being pure love. Why love then? In most cases, love is hard. Love hurts. For a short while, it might be easy and fun, but later comes age, childbirth, and suddenly it takes a conscious effort to keep loving. It's like a rope being dragged through water...
This is probably where I lose you. It's a rope being dragged by God. At the end of the rope is a lifeguard, call him a prophet, Jesus, God, whatever you like - he is an example of how to love. In the end, we're just holding on to what we have been given. And for me, that was enough. I believe that Jesus lived and died and that neither he nor his followers were delusional. If he had written the Bible himself, I might have had trouble believing his words. But those first years of Christianity are clear in my mind as a great scoop into eternity - starting at creation and ending in judgement, like a man's life - with an misty history and a misty future that follows through in a single sweep. It was a hand dipping into death that came out with life. I can't imagine being loved like that, yet I feel that I am.
And the few people that I have been able love like that will testify to it. I have plugged myself into an outlet and found that it provided electricity. There's no going back for me. I don't claim to have discovered The Truth, but I can't deny the truth of what I experience. I still feel far from God sometimes, and disappoint myself with what I do, but I know He is holding on to me and that distance means I am letting go. At least I know that what I'm holding on to is real and trustworthy.
Our significance and importance go much further than leading a "good life" and making the most of it while we're alive. I'm no mystic spiritual, but as I observe nature and the way things are, I can't help but see that everything has it's own unique nature, but life and death is universal. And not only that: it is usually associated with prolonged struggling and suffering and in most cases accompanied by emotions like fear, hate, anger, and hopelessness. Why are these feelings natural, and what is their natural opposite? It's a condition - not as in "it has to be a condition, because..." - I'm not trying to make sense of it, I'm just observing things as they are.
Yet, in spite of everything, there are qualities in life that seem out of place: hope, beauty, contentment - they are so overwhelmed by harsh reality that they seem almost anomalies. I hesitate to use the word 'miracles'. Even nature, animals are in constant pain: hunting for food, being hunted, starving. It's a condition that defies reason. Sometimes we try to make a connection, a cause and effect - we give them names like "survival" and "evolution", but they're just names describing what we see.
What about what we don't see? If love has cause, it stops being pure love, if is has a reward, it stop being pure love. Why love then? In most cases, love is hard. Love hurts. For a short while, it might be easy and fun, but later comes age, childbirth, and suddenly it takes a conscious effort to keep loving. It's like a rope being dragged through water...
This is probably where I lose you. It's a rope being dragged by God. At the end of the rope is a lifeguard, call him a prophet, Jesus, God, whatever you like - he is an example of how to love. In the end, we're just holding on to what we have been given. And for me, that was enough. I believe that Jesus lived and died and that neither he nor his followers were delusional. If he had written the Bible himself, I might have had trouble believing his words. But those first years of Christianity are clear in my mind as a great scoop into eternity - starting at creation and ending in judgement, like a man's life - with an misty history and a misty future that follows through in a single sweep. It was a hand dipping into death that came out with life. I can't imagine being loved like that, yet I feel that I am.
And the few people that I have been able love like that will testify to it. I have plugged myself into an outlet and found that it provided electricity. There's no going back for me. I don't claim to have discovered The Truth, but I can't deny the truth of what I experience. I still feel far from God sometimes, and disappoint myself with what I do, but I know He is holding on to me and that distance means I am letting go. At least I know that what I'm holding on to is real and trustworthy.
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Why is human life more important than any other life?
I don't think you got around to explaining that.
I don't think you got around to explaining that.
By the dubious merit of responsibility. Do you hold any other life responsible for what happens in the world? Why aren't some camels in Afghanistan tried for aiding and abetting some known terrorists?
Nothing gives value except humans. Therefore assigning importance to life is a value judgement made by humans. Being part of the human race probably makes me biased as to its importance, but that's what I measure value by. Of course, I can't say whether God values us more or less than animals, but judging from our place on earth, I'd say He has given us a seriously important position among life.
Nothing gives value except humans. Therefore assigning importance to life is a value judgement made by humans. Being part of the human race probably makes me biased as to its importance, but that's what I measure value by. Of course, I can't say whether God values us more or less than animals, but judging from our place on earth, I'd say He has given us a seriously important position among life.
I don't know where to begin in debunking that logic,
Oh I understand everything you said but I can't understand how anyone could rely on that as a reason, you're right you are biased, blindly biased. You figure by personifying non-humans and realising they can't do what we do or don't know what we know about ourselves that somehow makes them less important? What? Its exactly like saying we aren't very good at swimming after fish and catching them in our jaws so we are less important than sharks. Or saying we don't know what whales are singing about so they are more important than us.
I'm sorry but I need more than that, a whole lot more than that
If you honestly believe in your own crazy logic than you might be beyond teaching and this could be a waste of time...
Oh I understand everything you said but I can't understand how anyone could rely on that as a reason, you're right you are biased, blindly biased. You figure by personifying non-humans and realising they can't do what we do or don't know what we know about ourselves that somehow makes them less important? What? Its exactly like saying we aren't very good at swimming after fish and catching them in our jaws so we are less important than sharks. Or saying we don't know what whales are singing about so they are more important than us.
I'm sorry but I need more than that, a whole lot more than that
If you honestly believe in your own crazy logic than you might be beyond teaching and this could be a waste of time...
We are only important because we can assign importance. I don't know what you want to debunk. Isn't a person only important if someone thinks he is important? Have you ever seen how pathetic someone looks who thinks himself important when no one else thinks so? That's also why I personified the poor camels.
OK, you question my logic. Let me think ... and correct me if I'm wrong: You are probably one of those people who will condemn me just as harshly if I said humans are the least important species on this planet, and must serve everything else (under my criterium of responsibility this is equally true to what I've said before). Then I'll be "just another eternally pessimistic Christian who can never think anything good of mankind". Am I right? You'll say "all life on this planet is equally holy and important - all things are equal in life and in death".
I'll take my point further: why did I say those camels aren't responsible? I tried to point out that, by human logic, they are "innocent", that they don't share responsibility because they don't have responsibility to share.
Would you gladly jump in front of a camel to save it from enemy fire? See where I'm going? Importance - value - only exists because you assign it. How can all life have equal value if God does not assign it? Does it's value depend on your judgement?
If it does, then truly all things are relative - relative to you, that is - and at this moment those camels have more value to you than I could ever have.
OK, you question my logic. Let me think ... and correct me if I'm wrong: You are probably one of those people who will condemn me just as harshly if I said humans are the least important species on this planet, and must serve everything else (under my criterium of responsibility this is equally true to what I've said before). Then I'll be "just another eternally pessimistic Christian who can never think anything good of mankind". Am I right? You'll say "all life on this planet is equally holy and important - all things are equal in life and in death".
I'll take my point further: why did I say those camels aren't responsible? I tried to point out that, by human logic, they are "innocent", that they don't share responsibility because they don't have responsibility to share.
Would you gladly jump in front of a camel to save it from enemy fire? See where I'm going? Importance - value - only exists because you assign it. How can all life have equal value if God does not assign it? Does it's value depend on your judgement?
If it does, then truly all things are relative - relative to you, that is - and at this moment those camels have more value to you than I could ever have.